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While the guard are not in terrible shape some of their rules just don't seem to make a lot of sense.

1. Allow the standard platoon squads to be of other sizes. The 10 guys to a standard squad concept is very rigid. Most military forces have varied squad sizes in use. Squads can be from 5 to 20. One standard trooper model may be upgraded to a special weapon for every 5 in the squad. Two standard models per squad may be upgraded to a heavy weapons team per squad(same as before, just stays the same even with the varied squad size). Special weapons teams may have up to 1 special weapon per 2 models in the squad. Heavy weapons squads may have from 3 to 6 teams. Shotguns count as special weapons and are a no additional cost weapon.
2. The Platoon command squad should have the varied size option as per #1 and have a sgt who should have access to a wider variety of equipment than the standard squad sgt.(plasma pistol, power weapon options in addition to bolter as per #3)
3. Allow sgts to bring a rifle or pistol/CCW (no cost, just choice). They may to upgrade to a bolter for two points. They may still upgrade to a bolt pistol. Standard squad sgts should not have access to plasma pistols or power weapons.
4. Combined squads may include special weapons squads, heavy weapon squads, and the platoon command squad.
5. Orders should be able to be issued to any unit within the current command distance distance or to any squad which has a Voxcaster. If a unit is within the command radius and has a vox caster it gets a reroll if it did not understand the order the first time(Yelling it and sending it over the radio). Any enemy effect that prevents units from deepstriking will also prevent use of Vox casters within its area of effect(too much interference). Orders should always succeed if used on their own unit.
6. Vox caster for Storm troopers and Hot-shot las counts as lasguns for FRFSRF(might make them worth their points)
7. Commissars should all be purchased as HQ units that do not count against the force org. A commissar should be able to switch from squad to squad or to put himself wherever he feels he is needed even when that changes during the course of a battle. Commissars must start the game attached to a unit. For deployment purposes they will be counted as part of whatever unit they are attached to even if HQ units would not normally be allowed to deploy at that time.
8. Lumbering Behemoth addition - Vehicles with the Lumbering Behemoth rule may shoot at separate targets from the rest of their squad.
9. Veteran squads should be allowed to change out lasguns to laspistols/CCW for no cost. Any model can upgrade a lasgun to a bolter for 2 points
10. Heavy weapons teams have 'eternal warrior' (it's 2 guys on one base, not a 2 wound single guy).
11. Spotters - In any squad 1 model(spotter) may elect not to fire and will grant BS4 to a model with a sniper rifle. A spotter may only grant this to a single sniper model per turn.

Hold your horses mate!

For 1 things are fine as they are. I don't see why you fell the need to do half the things you offered up here. There many other issues I realy don't see why this is N°1.

2 Same as for 1.

3 We all agree that a lasgun sgt would be nice, ccw and pistol being only so useful in a standard firing line. As for Pw and plasma gun, i don't see whats wrong with that. Power weapons are not that rare, and it allows you on tabletop to field the power blob.

4 Now why on earth would you want that ? Yay i get to shoot evrything i have at 1 target ?

5 I like that idea actualy.

6 Well it wouldn't make much sense. Fluff wise storm troopers don't answer to the company commander. There sent there with a perticular mission to acomplish hence there special rules. Also a hot-shot should not be FRFSRF.
And stormies are very good at what they do, there a specialized elite choice. I think the pricing is fine considering what there capable off.

7 No. The whole thing about commisars bought as upgrades is that they dont get there asses focused and handed to on a platter when they go into CC. Making them IC , along with the thing you mentioned in 3 would break power blobs. And blobbing is something many guard players enjoy doing.

8 Like that idea, 3 LRBT focusing on the same target is overkill. Might make Leman squads an option.

9 Yes for the CCW, i don't see why not. But no for bolters. YOu play guard, not marines.

10 I just think they should be 2 separate models.

11 What for ? you can field a sniper for 10 pts with bs 4 and stealth. Why tie up one guy with a pair of goggles just so his lousy friend can be as good as the ratlings ?

I think that Infantry platoons could stay pretty much the same. If one wants to fix actual issues with imperial guard codex, they should be focused on bringing the currently weak units in line with the stronger choices.
Vendettas should be around 150 points
Ogryns and Storm Troopers could use a small points drop.

As to your suggestions:
1. I disagree here, as while you certainly don't have option for 5- or 15-man units, multiples of ten add some rigidity to the Imperial Guard. With those suggestions, I could spam 5-man squads with a heavy and a special weapon each, getting 5 such squads per platoon and combining with heavy and special weapons squads for a 26-man (15 guardsmen with 5 special weapons and 11 heavy weapons teams with eternal warrior, or 100+ models per troops choice with more than 20 meltaguns. Also, this would remove poweblobs, which are pretty much the only thing that floats foot Guard.
2. This might work, provided that special weapons are capped at 4 per squad. On the other hand, with Sergeant, commander and a comissar, they might make a decent combat unit.
3. I totally agree, and I don't see why the option had to be removed in the first place.
4. This might be an issue, allowing for squads that bristle with more heavy and special weapons than veteran squads, with enough ablative wounds and a Comissar to ensure that they don't run.
5. This seems good, although both unlimited range and re-rolls could be a balance issue.
6. Could work
7. Again, could work, but this looks an awful lot like they just get the advantages of being Independent Characters without the weaknesses. and I definetly don't want my Comissars to be ICs (again, Power Blobs)
8. This would warrant a points increase for all Leman russ, and hurt those not in squadrons.
9. I'm okay with that, although I don't really see a reason why this would be useful compared to shotguns (both allow you to get 4 S3 Ap- attacks at the enemy when charging, with shotguns having advantage of high BS and ccw+pistol in staying powe in assaults.
10. Seems ok, but could be abusive. Also, outside HWS how often do you need to allocate an instant-death wound on your Heavy weapon team?
11. No problem here for me, could make snipers worth it.

I think that the Guard are already a very powerful army and adding new features like this will make them too powerful.

These abilities will make the Guard too flexible. One of the ket features of the army is that it is very blunt and crude, winning by flattening an enemy using sheer numbers (or sacrifice there of) and big guns.

Things like a sarge with a power weapon are too advanced for the Guard and will make them too good against enemies that should be able to cream a typical Guard unit in assault. Immortal warrior for heavy weapon squads is far too tough for two guys. Even most of the toiughest characters in the game like Chaos Lords or monsters like Hive Tyrants aren't that tough and they are far tougher than a score of Guardsmen.

Also having vehicles shoot at separate targets from their unit will make them far to efficient and flexible for the Guard. Having them all blasting one target is what the Guard are about, making a choice to blast a target to pieces and having to think about if it is the right choice means this decision must be thought about.

I think that Guard units tend to be very cost efficient and there aren't any obvious bad units like the Tyranid Pyrovore that is simply very badly thought out in it's rules. Guard work well at what Guard do, being blunt, crude and inflexible in how they defeat enemies.

Adding Eternal Warrior to HW Teams is probably one of the most ridiculous ideas I've ever come across.
As for the other points, Imperial Guard are already a very powerful army, no need to make these changes at all.

2 special weapons per squad...and the ability to embed special weapons teams and heavy weapons teams in a blob? Lol.

You're also only attempting to fix the weaknesses with the Guard, some things need toning down. As an example, Vendetta's should lose transport capacity or have an increased cost, whilst I'd recommend only lasweapons can use the fire points in a Chimera.

Leech wrote:

Things like a sarge with a power weapon are too advanced for the Guard and will make them too good against enemies that should be able to cream a typical Guard unit in assault.

Mate thats in the codex, hence the power blobbing. He was actualy toning things down here with that one

Just Dave wrote:You're also only attempting to fix the weaknesses with the Guard, some things need toning down. As an example, Vendetta's should lose transport capacity or have an increased cost, whilst I'd recommend only lasweapons can use the fire points in a Chimera.

So you want to make chimeras useless? Don't think so. Toned down, maybe. But that's way too far.

Just Dave wrote:You're also only attempting to fix the weaknesses with the Guard, some things need toning down. As an example, Vendetta's should lose transport capacity or have an increased cost, whilst I'd recommend only lasweapons can use the fire points in a Chimera.

Fuff wise that would make sense. Tabletop wise it would break the chimera and most melta vet lists.

Leech wrote:
These abilities will make the Guard too flexible. One of the key features of the army is that it is very blunt and crude, winning by flattening an enemy using sheer numbers (or sacrifice there of) and big guns.

This is not a key feature but a stereotype. Currently, the Guard is maybe one of the most flexible armies out there.

mayfist wrote:Hold your horses mate!

For 1 things are fine as they are. I don't see why you fell the need to do half the things you offered up here. There many other issues I realy don't see why this is N°1.

2 Same as for 1.

3 We all agree that a lasgun sgt would be nice, ccw and pistol being only so useful in a standard firing line. As for Pw and plasma gun, i don't see whats wrong with that. Power weapons are not that rare, and it allows you on tabletop to field the power blob.

4 Now why on earth would you want that ? Yay i get to shoot evrything i have at 1 target ?

5 I like that idea actualy.

6 Well it wouldn't make much sense. Fluff wise storm troopers don't answer to the company commander. There sent there with a perticular mission to acomplish hence there special rules. Also a hot-shot should not be FRFSRF.
And stormies are very good at what they do, there a specialized elite choice. I think the pricing is fine considering what there capable off.

7 No. The whole thing about commisars bought as upgrades is that they dont get there asses focused and handed to on a platter when they go into CC. Making them IC , along with the thing you mentioned in 3 would break power blobs. And blobbing is something many guard players enjoy doing.

8 Like that idea, 3 LRBT focusing on the same target is overkill. Might make Leman squads an option.

9 Yes for the CCW, i don't see why not. But no for bolters. YOu play guard, not marines.

10 I just think they should be 2 separate models.

11 What for ? you can field a sniper for 10 pts with bs 4 and stealth. Why tie up one guy with a pair of goggles just so his lousy friend can be as good as the ratlings ?

Flavor-wise the guard draws from a lot of different worlds with a lot of different fighting styles. I would expect to see Catachans using a lot of 5 man squads while Mordians would like to run 12s(makes for nice 3x4 marching formations). Cadians might like 10s, but but the point is that the lasgun is the true common element across the Guard, not 10 man squads. Also, I know personally I have a number of metal pieces, but often not enough to run full 10 man matching squads. To prevent oddly top-heavy platoons, I would be fine with a 20 model minimum number of standard troopers in standard squads.

HW teams used to be 2 models but since they have shifted it and GW now produces them as a single model. I think we just need to get them to function as closely as possible to being 2 models on one base. Eternal Warrior seems like the easiest way to not see the team wiped out by a single plasma gun hit.

The sniper/spotter concept is really just flavor. While I understand that guardsman are not always the best shot, those chosen to act as snipers would generally be better shots than average. They don't get all the bonuses that the ratlings do, but they do count as troops so this is flexibility and flavor. As you peel off the additional models the snipers lose their spotting so their shooting suffers.

Offering veterans Bolters was to put them in line with standard sgts. I see it as flexibility but not game changing. I suppose you could offer them hot-shot las but IMO that gun makes no sense and should really be taken out of the game....

I'm not following the issue about Commissars. If anything I would think making them ICs makes it easier to power blob.While an IC could technically run around on it's own, that would be somewhat odd for a Commissar(game and fluff).

pk1 wrote:

mayfist wrote:Hold your horses mate!

For 1 things are fine as they are. I don't see why you fell the need to do half the things you offered up here. There many other issues I realy don't see why this is N°1.

2 Same as for 1.

3 We all agree that a lasgun sgt would be nice, ccw and pistol being only so useful in a standard firing line. As for Pw and plasma gun, i don't see whats wrong with that. Power weapons are not that rare, and it allows you on tabletop to field the power blob.

4 Now why on earth would you want that ? Yay i get to shoot evrything i have at 1 target ?

5 I like that idea actualy.

6 Well it wouldn't make much sense. Fluff wise storm troopers don't answer to the company commander. There sent there with a perticular mission to acomplish hence there special rules. Also a hot-shot should not be FRFSRF.
And stormies are very good at what they do, there a specialized elite choice. I think the pricing is fine considering what there capable off.

7 No. The whole thing about commisars bought as upgrades is that they dont get there asses focused and handed to on a platter when they go into CC. Making them IC , along with the thing you mentioned in 3 would break power blobs. And blobbing is something many guard players enjoy doing.

8 Like that idea, 3 LRBT focusing on the same target is overkill. Might make Leman squads an option.

9 Yes for the CCW, i don't see why not. But no for bolters. YOu play guard, not marines.

10 I just think they should be 2 separate models.

11 What for ? you can field a sniper for 10 pts with bs 4 and stealth. Why tie up one guy with a pair of goggles just so his lousy friend can be as good as the ratlings ?

Flavor-wise the guard draws from a lot of different worlds with a lot of different fighting styles. I would expect to see Catachans using a lot of 5 man squads while Mordians would like to run 12s(makes for nice 3x4 marching formations). Cadians might like 10s, but but the point is that the lasgun is the true common element across the Guard, not 10 man squads. Also, I know personally I have a number of metal pieces, but often not enough to run full 10 man matching squads. To prevent oddly top-heavy platoons, I would be fine with a 20 model minimum number of standard troopers in standard squads.

HW teams used to be 2 models but since they have shifted it and GW now produces them as a single model. I think we just need to get them to function as closely as possible to being 2 models on one base. Eternal Warrior seems like the easiest way to not see the team wiped out by a single plasma gun hit.

The sniper/spotter concept is really just flavor. While I understand that guardsman are not always the best shot, those chosen to act as snipers would generally be better shots than average. They don't get all the bonuses that the ratlings do, but they do count as troops so this is flexibility and flavor. As you peel off the additional models the snipers lose their spotting so their shooting suffers.

Offering veterans Bolters was to put them in line with standard sgts. I see it as flexibility but not game changing. I suppose you could offer them hot-shot las but IMO that gun makes no sense and should really be taken out of the game....

I'm not following the issue about Commissars. If anything I would think making them ICs makes it easier to power blob.While an IC could technically run around on it's own, that would be somewhat odd for a Commissar(game and fluff).

How on earth would making commies IC make power blobs "better" ? You are aware that in the current case they can use the blobed guardsmen as meatshields in cc. Make then IC and they can be singled out. Now who you going to focus in a fight.... the commie or some random guardsmen ?

As for bolters just no. You are not a space marine. You are a guardsmen. Live with it.

And finally you can just make a squad of sniper guardsmen and run them like ratlings - problem solved.

1. While it really isn't needed it would be good to showcase the organizational diversity of the guard. Beyond that I wouldn't really care if this was implemented and the only change I would make if it was would be to boost my squads to 12 men total to fill up the Chimera completely. Also, I reccommend 1 special and heavy weapon per 10 men for infantry squads like it currently is.

2. Don't care much for the sizes, but as for the sergeant, command squads are very abstract on the tabletop. You have the CO and four other dudes, one could be a sergeant, they could all be lieutenants, they could all be privates. None of that matters. Regarding special equipment for platoon sergeants if they were implemented I really wouldn't care, all I care about are special and heavy weapons. If I have points left over I might give a sergeant of company commander a plasma or bolt pistol, but I stay away from any close combat upgrades.

3. No. Guard weapons are supposed to suck and bolters are supposed to be (relatively) special. As for the rifle issue, I honestly would never bother with a pistol then because they only see use when the squad is going to die or charge something weaker than Guard.

4. Gotta go with mayfist here.

5. I can roll with that.

6. I don't really care, at least storm troopers are somewhat useful unlike Ogryn. Also, Storm Troopers are not under the command of local commanders, they are sent in from their special storm trooper regiment to do their special storm trooper mission and leave.

7. Gonna go with Mayfist here.

8. Sounds cool, but might be overpowered. Imagine 6-9 LRBTs rolling around the battlefield shooting at different targets.

9. Same as mayfist here, take CCW if you want, but bolters should be special. Besides you already get three special weapons in a 70 point squad that can take any number of other upgrades. I think we can live with lasguns.

10. Why not?

11. Sounds useless. You pay 55 points for a squad with a sniper rifle, and are using 15 of those points (5 for each guardsman and 5 for the sniper rifle) to fire it at BS 4 when you can take a Ratling with a sniper rifle and stealth for 10 points, or a Vet with a sniper rifle for 12, or a vet with a sniper rifle and camo cloak for 15 points.

One thing I think is worth changing is to make FRFSRF apply to any weapon apart from flamer/heavy. The order refers to the drill of firing a volley, not the lasgun itself. Flamers aren't really that sort of weapon, and heavy weapons are shooting at max rate of fire regardless. Of course, this would have knock-on effects with regards to Gets Hot!... maybe an extra shot then auto-hit on the firer for Gets Hot!, auto-kill if a1 is rolled.

Hot-Shots should be S4 AP3 and more expensive to reflect this, and available to company command squads and IC's.

Vendettas should definitely cost more. Transport capacity should be unchanged - they're hung off the wings, no sticking out of the hull. If anything, the hvy bolter sponsons should reduce tranport capacity... maybe give them more options for sponsons.

Oh god no. I honestly think frfsrf is fine, it isn't supposed to be an arbitrary firepower boost, it is supposed to help you against a specific target like the other orders.

FRFSRF is meant to help cut through hordes, especially with combined squads, 70-105 lasgun shots with a combined squad with lots of heavy weapons can do a number on soft enemies.

Bring it down is meant against big threats like a Land Raider or Carnifex or something closing in on you by making up for the poor BS.

Fire on my target should be used against targets whose armour you can penetrate.

Also, storm troopers are pretty useful, their low strength guns are annoying, but boost them to strength 4 and you end up with a squad that could usurp veterans and infantry squads since only monstrous creatures and TEQs have any saftey against them, and if you boost their cost to compensate you are just exacerbating the problem of a Guard unit that goes against general Guard doctrine (cheap troops, lots of tanks, lots of artillery).

Also, if FRFSRF was modified to all weapons (should not include meltaguns, imagine a vet squad w/ 6 melta shots a turn) you wouldn't need to modify Gets Hot rules since you already have a 50/50 chance of GH, and in a squad with 2 or 3 plasma guns odds are someone is gonna die anyway.

Just because someone can take a shot doesn't mean they have to. You could opt not to fire plasma weapons

Either way I don't think FRFSRF should be for plasma, I think they sort of fall in with the same issue of a max firing rate. I'm just trying to find a way to make stormtroopers worth their points.

A couple people refer to Storm Troopers operating outside the field commanders prevue, but I'm unaware of any fluff that states that as being the norm for them. As far as I knew they are attached at the higher levels but still are part of the field commander's troops. Can someone point me in the direction of that fluff?

pk1 wrote:Just because someone can take a shot doesn't mean they have to. You could opt not to fire plasma weapons

Either way I don't think FRFSRF should be for plasma, I think they sort of fall in with the same issue of a max firing rate. I'm just trying to find a way to make stormtroopers worth their points.

A couple people refer to Storm Troopers operating outside the field commanders prevue, but I'm unaware of any fluff that states that as being the norm for them. As far as I knew they are attached at the higher levels but still are part of the field commander's troops. Can someone point me in the direction of that fluff?

FRFSRF is homage to the way that musket armed troops could stand in a formation and lay down continuous fire based on the way that they move in the formation and reload. It is NOT supposed to be given to anyone besides the guardsmen. Where else can it go? No where. Only the guardsmen would ever stand in this formation.

Stormtroopers can be worth their points, if you know what they can and can't do- and have them do what you origonally wanted them to. Say equiping them with meltas and dropping them in to kill a tank. Works great. You cannot however, look to that same unit to kill off a squad of 20 guants. Doesn't work. Do not buy more than 5. You don't need it.

If you read the storm trooper page in the Guard codex. It says in there that they are not attached to specific armies. In fact, each segmentum has a set number of storm troopers (about 10,000 per segmentum I believe) and are used by the Munitorum where they see fit.

pk1 wrote:Just because someone can take a shot doesn't mean they have to. You could opt not to fire plasma weapons

Either way I don't think FRFSRF should be for plasma, I think they sort of fall in with the same issue of a max firing rate. I'm just trying to find a way to make stormtroopers worth their points.

A couple people refer to Storm Troopers operating outside the field commanders prevue, but I'm unaware of any fluff that states that as being the norm for them. As far as I knew they are attached at the higher levels but still are part of the field commander's troops. Can someone point me in the direction of that fluff?

Well what other weapons could get FRFSRF? Plasma guns would be OP with it and Vets would die in hordes (up to 9 AP 2 shots a turn (plus the lasguns) for just 115 points is OP), melta vets would be an even bigger than normal threat, sniper rifles getting it would be stupid, so all that is left is grenade launchers where it doesn't matter much anyway.

While I think storm troopers are just fine I think there are a few things you could do to boost them including WS 4 (they are trained in the same schools as commissars and are at the peak of physical conditioning that a normal human can reach), perhaps make HSLG assault 2. Overall however they are a great unit, 16 points for a BS 4 S/T 3 model with an AP 3 gun that can deepstrike, infiltrate, scout, or flank is a really good deal. The only problem with them is that they frequently are compared to veterans who are a more versatile troop choice. STs aren't meant to be versatile, they are meant to be kitted out for a specific role that they do effectively. For example, you can use them as a large scale flanking force by giving them the Recon or Behind Enemy Lines special operation and force the enemy to divert forces to deal with them. You can deepstrike them with meltas or plasmas and have them pop a tank or artillery gun or something that is bothering you. They are really good against Tau since they have high AP weapons to mess up battlesuits and their light vehicles, and they can actually take them in close combat.

Okay my biggest issues with this list is this scenario using points 4 and 10, which I would totally do.

15 HWT models in 4+ cover, (not hard with the right board.) with missile launchers with a lord commissar with a camo cloak, (giving the entire unit stealth,)

Not only does the HWT receive a -huge- bump in LD for orders to shoot 15 missiles either twin linked or reroll cover saves against infantry, but they can easily go to ground during the opponent's shooting phase for a 2+ cover save, (one from stealth and one from g2g) and get right back up and do the same thing again via orders your following shooting phase, plus they're eternal warrior? Goodbye hordes, goodbye armor, goodbye marines. This would make people think the GK codex was a joke.

Buttons wrote:

pk1 wrote:Just because someone can take a shot doesn't mean they have to. You could opt not to fire plasma weapons

Either way I don't think FRFSRF should be for plasma, I think they sort of fall in with the same issue of a max firing rate. I'm just trying to find a way to make stormtroopers worth their points.

A couple people refer to Storm Troopers operating outside the field commanders prevue, but I'm unaware of any fluff that states that as being the norm for them. As far as I knew they are attached at the higher levels but still are part of the field commander's troops. Can someone point me in the direction of that fluff?

Well what other weapons could get FRFSRF? Plasma guns would be OP with it and Vets would die in hordes (up to 9 AP 2 shots a turn (plus the lasguns) for just 115 points is OP), melta vets would be an even bigger than normal threat, sniper rifles getting it would be stupid, so all that is left is grenade launchers where it doesn't matter much anyway.

While I think storm troopers are just fine I think there are a few things you could do to boost them including WS 4 (they are trained in the same schools as commissars and are at the peak of physical conditioning that a normal human can reach), perhaps make HSLG assault 2. Overall however they are a great unit, 16 points for a BS 4 S/T 3 model with an AP 3 gun that can deepstrike, infiltrate, scout, or flank is a really good deal. The only problem with them is that they frequently are compared to veterans who are a more versatile troop choice. STs aren't meant to be versatile, they are meant to be kitted out for a specific role that they do effectively. For example, you can use them as a large scale flanking force by giving them the Recon or Behind Enemy Lines special operation and force the enemy to divert forces to deal with them. You can deepstrike them with meltas or plasmas and have them pop a tank or artillery gun or something that is bothering you. They are really good against Tau since they have high AP weapons to mess up battlesuits and their light vehicles, and they can actually take them in close combat.

+1 on the ST deal and ppm.

Fluff wise stormies are part of there own separate storm trooper regiment. They take orders from there own command structure, generally commanded by a colonel, who himself takes orders from the high command itself. They are the very best the Iom has to throw at the enemy MEQ apart.
Unfortunately there are not a great many stormie regiments, making them to valuable to field as a single regiment at a single location. Instead, they are sent of as small task forces to deal with urgent threats and to accomplish missions considered suicide by other guard units.
They represent this in the codex by allowing you to pick up to 3 squads as elites, and allowing to choose a special mission that influences there deployment.
Once there mission is accomplished, they head back to command or redeploy wherever command orders them to. They are in no way attached to the regular guards command structure.

And this is why the ST are not to be compared the vets. Vets are a troop choice that can be kitted out to do whatever is needed on a day to day basis. Stormies come in with a single purpose, and are not as flexible in there options in consequence.

mayfist wrote:

Buttons wrote:

pk1 wrote:Just because someone can take a shot doesn't mean they have to. You could opt not to fire plasma weapons

Either way I don't think FRFSRF should be for plasma, I think they sort of fall in with the same issue of a max firing rate. I'm just trying to find a way to make stormtroopers worth their points.

A couple people refer to Storm Troopers operating outside the field commanders prevue, but I'm unaware of any fluff that states that as being the norm for them. As far as I knew they are attached at the higher levels but still are part of the field commander's troops. Can someone point me in the direction of that fluff?

Well what other weapons could get FRFSRF? Plasma guns would be OP with it and Vets would die in hordes (up to 9 AP 2 shots a turn (plus the lasguns) for just 115 points is OP), melta vets would be an even bigger than normal threat, sniper rifles getting it would be stupid, so all that is left is grenade launchers where it doesn't matter much anyway.

While I think storm troopers are just fine I think there are a few things you could do to boost them including WS 4 (they are trained in the same schools as commissars and are at the peak of physical conditioning that a normal human can reach), perhaps make HSLG assault 2. Overall however they are a great unit, 16 points for a BS 4 S/T 3 model with an AP 3 gun that can deepstrike, infiltrate, scout, or flank is a really good deal. The only problem with them is that they frequently are compared to veterans who are a more versatile troop choice. STs aren't meant to be versatile, they are meant to be kitted out for a specific role that they do effectively. For example, you can use them as a large scale flanking force by giving them the Recon or Behind Enemy Lines special operation and force the enemy to divert forces to deal with them. You can deepstrike them with meltas or plasmas and have them pop a tank or artillery gun or something that is bothering you. They are really good against Tau since they have high AP weapons to mess up battlesuits and their light vehicles, and they can actually take them in close combat.

+1 on the ST deal and ppm.

Fluff wise stormies are part of there own separate storm trooper regiment. They take orders from there own command structure, generally commanded by a colonel, who himself takes orders from the high command itself. They are the very best the Iom has to throw at the enemy MEQ apart.
Unfortunately there are not a great many stormie regiments, making them to valuable to field as a single regiment at a single location. Instead, they are sent of as small task forces to deal with urgent threats and to accomplish missions considered suicide by other guard units.
They represent this in the codex by allowing you to pick up to 3 squads as elites, and allowing to choose a special mission that influences there deployment.
Once there mission is accomplished, they head back to command or redeploy wherever command orders them to. They are in no way attached to the regular guards command structure.

And this is why the ST are not to be compared the vets. Vets are a troop choice that can be kitted out to do whatever is needed on a day to day basis. Stormies come in with a single purpose, and are not as flexible in there options in consequence.

Doh, I got it to fix hot shot las..... RENDING. Normal las profile otherwise plus rending.... no more of this odd STR3 AP3 which seemed to be more of a poison attack than an actual shooting attack.

That is actually a massive downgrade. Looking at the math hammer it pretty much halves the total number of wounds given to MEQs than str 3 ap 3 HSLGs whether in cover or not.

I still do not see why they are so terrible, they are so versatile when you are kitting them out.

Want to flank with lots of AP 3 guns?
10 man squad
Chimera
Special Operation that isn't airborne assault
Put them in the Chimera, outflank, shoot up an enemy squad and remain in cover.

Want to pop a Land Raider?
5 man squad
Airborne Assault
2 Meltas
Deepstrike with rerolls, pop the vehicle and you are done

Want to pop something with <AV13 in the rear?
5 man squad
Airborne Assault
2 Plasma Guns
1 Plasma Pistol
deepstrike with rerolls pop the vehicle and you are done

Want to shoot up some battlesuits and assault a vehicle the next turn?
10 man squad
Airborne Assault
2 Plasma Guns
1 Plasma Pistol
Deepstrike with rerolls, shoot up the battlesuits, next turn either finish them off or assault something soft

Want to get behind a Kroot wall with some tough infantry?
10 man squad
Anything but Airborne Assault
2 Plasma Guns
1 Plasma Pistol
Chimera
Flank with the Chimeras and proceed to head towards the Tau lines. Even if you never reach the enemy they will likely spend a couple of turn dealing with you.

Want to take out an enemy HQ?
10 man squad
Airborne Assault
2 Plasma Guns
1 Plasma Pistol
Deepstrike with rerolls, shoot up the squad he is in.

Be creative, try out ideas, some of these may not be the best options, but they are really threatening even with low strength weapons.>