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I write this in the realization that the mass of “Grey Knights are overpowered” threads are bombarding the forums, and someone needs to level the playing field. I don’t in any way claim to be a master at this, but I have collected enough armies to see why certain armies are the way they are. I have collected Tau, Daemons, Space Wolfs, Old Grey Knights, New Grey Knights, Space Marines and Dark Angels. In turn I have helped friends in our LGS work on their armies as well.

I have come to realize the base points cost in any army book charges points for potential power as well as base cost. Here is a breakdown of Grey Knights vs Space Marines and why GK would seem overpowered.
At 200pts
SM= 10man team, plasma Rifle, Plasma cannon, Plasma pistol.
GK= 10man team

Now at ranged, the SM would win on average, even tho the GK would fire 20 rounds on the move, the SM squad out ranges with the cannon, and once the GK could fire the SM squad it putting out 2 AP2 weapon each turn. The closer the GK squad gets, the more damage they take. By average the GK squad should not be able to get into CC since taking 3-4 causalities per turn.

Now in the event that the GK have a rhino, the SM could change up to a lascannon and las-Razorback and drop the plasma pistol. Again the likely hood of GK getting close under two lascannons and once slogging after the Rhino is destroyed again will not make it into CC.

Now for 265pts the SM can take a 10man team, lascannon, plasma, Razorback w/lascannon. The spam of 1 TL las and 1 normal las.
Due to GK upgrade weapons only being 24” range, they have to get closer to do any real damage.

If the GK squad gets into CC then not counting charge, on average the GK will cause 5 causalities vs SM causing 2.5 per assault phase.

Down to the Dreadnough Auto cannon spams. Now one on one the SM can field 2 ways for same or less pts, one being with just a lascannon, only needing a 3+ to glance the GK dreadnought armor, or with same load out of 2 auto cannons and needing a 5+ to glance with 10pts less on the price.
However the biggest counter to GK Dreadnought auto cannon spam is Assault Terminators, heres why.
For 3 Heavy choice Dreadnoughts armed with 2 Auto cannons you’re looking at 405pts. That brings 12 S8 shots at 48” of Transport popping goodness. However in our LGS a friend of mine counters with 1 10man squad of SS/TH terminators, in the first turn has scouts Infiltrate and bring a teleport homer. Whenever he gets the reserve roll passed he brings them in and starts to charge my Dreadnoughts, normally he hits them by turn 4, getting the reserve roll by turn 3. This isn’t the most affective tactic but it has made me split up my Dreadnoughts to the far corners of my DZ. His new trick is taking 6 Dreadnoughts (master of the forge) with drop pods and in the first turn bringing in 4 of them (taking two troops in Pods so his number is 8) and landing them as close as possible to mine. When I have taken 6 Auto cannon dreads I lose about 2-3 of them first turn, and in the turn he charges his Dreads vs mine it’s all over. At this point I have about 2 of his Dreads by turn 2 charging me, and 2 more coming in to help.

In all its not impossible, just have to build for it. I see the change in what GW is making 40k now, and in my option, its gearing toward getting rid of the “one list to rule them all” effect. The GK got nurffed from the old codex, but the power was just leveled out to the whole army. I miss my WS5, S6 standered, 2A with or without a charge, always fighting as if night conditions, Psycannons ignored INV svs and Terminators that would hand out death like the current Draigowing. But the army is more playable now.
Overall, GK rule the CC world, with the grenades and Force weapons and champions, GK hit the hardest up close. That leaves the Blood Angels to be the fastest CC army, the Space Wolfs to the most survivable assault army, and the Black Templar (with the right vow) the most adaptable CC/Range army (rerolls to hit and can take lascannons with a 5man team.)

In closing, I know not everyone will agree with me, and as this being my experience I’m only trying to help out thos that feel they are getting hosed. Just make sure you outnumber GK when charging, and thin them at range.

What is the point of this thread?
GK are...powerful?

how can a 10 man smurf unit take a razorback? Unless they have double the transport capacity becuase of girlyman, is the conclusion of this really too keep them at a distance and shoot until their outnumbered? Before shooting GK armies are outnumbered

You don't have to fit in a transport to be able to take it.

GK's are slightly overpowered because of a few units/pieces of wargear. Normal strike squads are not one of them, so this is a pointless comparison.

Rifleman dreads with psybolts, purifiers, rad/psycho grenades and fortitude are the most obvious things that make GK slightly overpowered at the moment. All stuff that is extremely cost effective and useful against anything and everything. Supported by other strong choices, it makes for a powerful army.

1) you're ignoring transports
2) Fortitude is outrageous
3) there is no justifiable reason that GKs should be getting Psychic defense for free
4) the ridiculous plethora of grenades included at no cost
5) the fact that every single unit in the codex includes base 2 attacks and Force Weapons means that high armor save models and multi wound models are useless in CC, breaking certain units, notably Meganobz. Cleansing Flame also breaks Slugga Boyz outright. No other codex has the option to include Force Weapons on troops to my knowledge and a standard Power Weapon on a base 2 attack model normally costs 15 points, so why do Grey Knights get them for free?
6) Vendreads have a rerollable damage result, meaning they have two chances to get a Shaken/Stunned result...which due to Fortitude allows them two chances to ignore damage results, granted a successful Psychic test at a whopping leadership 10.

You are wrong, not every GK unit has base 2 attacks. Strike and Interceptor squads are base 1 attack each.

Fortitude is undercosted, however its hardly as broken as people claim. It just means you can't stun vehicles each turn and be done with it. If you can't kill an AV12 walker then you need to rethink your army.

Vendreds are nothing new. They have been around since the SM codex. this is really just a complaint about Fortitude, which I agree is undercosted however its not the end of the world. You also need to remember that Ved Dreds are an Elite choice, a very competitive slot in the GK codex.

Regarding Psydread cost compared to a dreadnought in the SM Codex

If you took an Ironclad Dread with 2 Autocannons it would cost you 135+10+10 = 155 for AV13 and Extra Armour
A Psydread with Psybolt and 2 Autocannons costs you 135 and you get AV12 and Fortitude

Because of the strength difference the Psybolt cancels out the AV13, so in a one-on-one fight, the two dreads are actually even in terms of the number of penetrating/glancing hits. So it comes down to damage results, in which the Psydread actually has the ability to negate 2 damage results, shaken and stunned, whereas the Ironclad merely turns stunned results into shaken. The Psydread therefore can ignore a considerable number more damage results and produces the exact same number of penetrating/glancing shots for the exact same price.

Alternately, if we took a vanilla Dreadnought from SM Codex, we would save 10 points versus a Psydread from Codex GK. However obviously the Psydread would considerable outperform the vanilla SM Dread w/ Autocannons because of the strength difference. Actually, the number of glancing results stays the same, and the number of penetrating hits doubles on average. So you get double the number of penetrating shots for 10 points, and that's not counting fortitude, which, again, on a roll of 10 or less on a 2d6 allows you to completely discount shaken and stunned results.

So the question is, can a vanilla dread from SM Codex match the Psydread? Well, the most obvious choice is to add extra Armour allowing it to take Stunned results as though they were Shaken, but that counts 15 points, bringing it over the cost of the Psydread in spite of still being inferior because it neither negates the Stunned result nor ignores shaken results.

TedNugent wrote:1) you're ignoring transports
2) Fortitude is outrageous
3) there is no justifiable reason that GKs should be getting Psychic defense for free
4) the ridiculous plethora of grenades included at no cost
5) the fact that every single unit in the codex includes base 2 attacks and Force Weapons means that high armor save models and multi wound models are useless in CC, breaking certain units, notably Meganobz. Cleansing Flame also breaks Slugga Boyz outright. No other codex has the option to include Force Weapons on troops to my knowledge and a standard Power Weapon on a base 2 attack model normally costs 15 points, so why do Grey Knights get them for free?
6) Vendreads have a rerollable damage result, meaning they have two chances to get a Shaken/Stunned result...which due to Fortitude allows them two chances to ignore damage results, granted a successful Psychic test at a whopping leadership 10.

You seem to be misinformed about the GK.
1 I mentioned Trans
2 Fortitude isnt worse the the Necrons thing that gives them a 2+ save vs
3 Defense for free? You mean Agis? Its -1pt to Ld if you tgt them with an attack, just dont take Psykers.
4 the only free Grenade is Psyk-out, you have to pay for the other ones. Again dont take Psykers.
5 GK Strike squads dont have 2 attacks, or Interceptors. And they have no benefit of having a second CC weapon. Force weapons come at a price, alot of chances to POTW, at the same time they are the CC masters, kill at range. also they are not free, a base cheapest GK is 20pts per model. That counts for Storm bolter and Power weapon and the threat of POTW on the Justicar (has the 2A)
6 Thats why they cost 10pts more and Fortitude runs the risk of a glancing hit if POTW, i have had a Land raider get immobilized because of it. Re roll only works on your opposition rolls the damage result not if you do it to your self.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TedNugent wrote:Regarding Psydread cost compared to a dreadnought in the SM Codex

If you took an Ironclad Dread with 2 Autocannons it would cost you 135+10+10 = 155 for AV13 and Extra Armour
A Psydread with Psybolt and 2 Autocannons costs you 135 and you get AV12 and Fortitude

Because of the strength difference the Psybolt cancels out the AV13, so in a one-on-one fight, the two dreads are actually even in terms of the number of penetrating/glancing hits. So it comes down to damage results, in which the Psydread actually has the ability to negate 2 damage results, shaken and stunned, whereas the Ironclad merely turns stunned results into shaken. The Psydread therefore can ignore a considerable number more damage results and produces the exact same number of penetrating/glancing shots for the exact same price.

Alternately, if we took a vanilla Dreadnought from SM Codex, we would save 10 points versus a Psydread from Codex GK. However obviously the Psydread would considerable outperform the vanilla SM Dread w/ Autocannons because of the strength difference. Actually, the number of glancing results stays the same, and the number of penetrating hits doubles on average. So you get double the number of penetrating shots for 10 points, and that's not counting fortitude, which, again, on a roll of 10 or less on a 2d6 allows you to completely discount shaken and stunned results.

So the question is, can a vanilla dread from SM Codex match the Psydread? Well, the most obvious choice is to add extra Armour allowing it to take Stunned results as though they were Shaken, but that counts 15 points, bringing it over the cost of the Psydread in spite of still being inferior because it neither negates the Stunned result nor ignores shaken results.

Very true, My SM friend takes a las list, its 6 tac squads with las cannons and las backs. My Dread list normally loses to it.

Grey Templar wrote:You are wrong, not every GK unit has base 2 attacks. Strike and Interceptor squads are base 1 attack each.

Scratch that.

Grey Templar wrote:
Vendreds are nothing new. They have been around since the SM codex. this is really just a complaint about Fortitude, which I agree is undercosted however its not the end of the world. You also need to remember that Ved Dreds are an Elite choice, a very competitive slot in the GK codex.

It is the combination of the Venerable rules with the Fortitude psychic power that redefine the ability's advantage.

Venerable allows a reroll result of a damage result that occurs at greater than 33% probability. With the Psychic test, that means your chance of totally negating a damage result on a GK Vendread occurs at over 40%.

Granted, Venerable Dreadnoughts are expensive and come at a significant premium over regular Dreadnoughts, but that is a -considerable- advantage, especially when taken compared to a vanilla SM Dreadnought which was your point of contention.

TN

If you want to referance SM in dreadnought to dreadnought then yes the GK side outweighs a little, however the SM can take 6 Ven Dreads. Also it can take 30 SS/TH terminators for 1200 points and completely ignore the GK dreadnoughts and GK terms, tanking the board. There will always be a counter to everything.

DK wrote:If you want to referance SM in dreadnought to dreadnought then yes the GK side outweighs a little, however the SM can take 6 Ven Dreads.

Vanilla vendreads are horrible.

DK wrote:Also it can take 30 SS/TH terminators for 1200 points and completely ignore the GK dreadnoughts and GK terms, tanking the board. There will always be a counter to everything.

Yes, so that is a horrible way to discuss tactics.

The fact is that psybolts + reinforced aegis + fortitude makes the GK dreads into heavily undercosted units because they pay 10pts for all of that.

Purifiers are great units because they are very good at EVERYTHING. They can take out any armour with resonable odds, they can take on hordes with ease, they can kill MEQ with S5 I6 powerweapons with decent amount of attacks and they can kill anything with multiple wounds with force weapons. They would be a very good unit if kept as only elite, but when it is possible to make them troops cheaply (and no, Crowe is absolutely not useless) it is a little much.

Psychostroke grenades should never have existed. You just can't attack a unit with those grenades, as it has several auto-win outcomes.
Rad grenades would be a great item if they didn't affect ID, but as they do, they are amazing.

Fortitude for +5 pts is insanely undercosted. Hopefully it is costed for 6th ed rules. Following the "leaked" ruleset, fortitude will loose a lot of power, so let's hope that remains so.

Without these issues, the GK codex would just be another good codex, par with the other new codexes.

Illumini wrote:

DK wrote:If you want to referance SM in dreadnought to dreadnought then yes the GK side outweighs a little, however the SM can take 6 Ven Dreads.

Vanilla vendreads are horrible.

DK wrote:Also it can take 30 SS/TH terminators for 1200 points and completely ignore the GK dreadnoughts and GK terms, tanking the board. There will always be a counter to everything.

Yes, so that is a horrible way to discuss tactics.

The fact is that psybolts + reinforced aegis + fortitude makes the GK dreads into heavily undercosted units because they pay 10pts for all of that.

Purifiers are great units because they are very good at EVERYTHING. They can take out any armour with resonable odds, they can take on hordes with ease, they can kill MEQ with S5 I6 powerweapons with decent amount of attacks and they can kill anything with multiple wounds with force weapons. They would be a very good unit if kept as only elite, but when it is possible to make them troops cheaply (and no, Crowe is absolutely not useless) it is a little much.

Psychostroke grenades should never have existed. You just can't attack a unit with those grenades, as it has several auto-win outcomes.
Rad grenades would be a great item if they didn't affect ID, but as they do, they are amazing.

Fortitude for +5 pts is insanely undercosted. Hopefully it is costed for 6th ed rules. Following the "leaked" ruleset, fortitude will loose a lot of power, so let's hope that remains so.

Without these issues, the GK codex would just be another good codex, par with the other new codexes.

All good points, however as for the nades, GK are supposed to be the best at CC. There is never a situation when assaulting GK would be a reasonable outcome unless you outnumber them. Matt Ward had to even out the Nurffing of the old to the new, so a few select units could take rad and psychoc nades. Again your looking at why assaulting is going to favor the GK player, Kill them at range.

lol @ your sig

DK's sig wrote:Grey Knights, making armies run off the board since the new Codex

TedNugent wrote:lol @ your sig

DK's sig wrote:Grey Knights, making armies run off the board since the new Codex

Hey, a friend gave that line to me because i ran his whole Tau army off the table in the first turn by shooting his Etherial with my Vindicare assassin. He failed every Ld test, lost 4x 12man Fire warror teams. Its more of a tribute then a literal thing.

DK wrote:

Hey, a friend gave that line to me because i ran his whole Tau army off the table in the first turn by shooting his Etherial with my Vindicare assassin. He failed every Ld test, lost 4x 12man Fire warror teams. Its more of a tribute then a literal thing.

Wow, that would suck. Talk about an effective usage of a Vindicare Assassin

DK wrote:All good points, however as for the nades, GK are supposed to be the best at CC. There is never a situation when assaulting GK would be a reasonable outcome unless you outnumber them. Matt Ward had to even out the Nurffing of the old to the new, so a few select units could take rad and psychoc nades. Again your looking at why assaulting is going to favor the GK player, Kill them at range.

Some armies have to assault them though, because their shooting is sub-par (Tyranids...). And even then, we can't rely on our average-to-above-average Initiative to pull us through, because Grey Knights can get Halberds for cheap.

DK wrote:I write this in the realization that the mass of “Grey Knights are overpowered” threads are bombarding the forums,

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/417456.page

The 56 page thread finally died, glad we could start a new one.

DK wrote:All good points, however as for the nades, GK are supposed to be the best at CC. There is never a situation when assaulting GK would be a reasonable outcome unless you outnumber them. Matt Ward had to even out the Nurffing of the old to the new, so a few select units could take rad and psychoc nades. Again your looking at why assaulting is going to favor the GK player, Kill them at range.

1: They should be the best at CC in your opinion. Even if your opinion was shared by the entire world, it is ridicolous to claim that assaulting GK's should never have a reasonable outcome unless they are outnumbered. Psychostrokes are bad gamedesign. "oh, I rolled a 2 - you loose no matter what your unit is" is an extremely crappy mechanic.
2: GK's outshoot lots of armies. Psyflemen, psybacks, psycannons (can you spot a theme ) on mobile platforms you have to kill to stop from firing means that GK's can smack around almost any army in the shooting phase while trundling towards objectives/cc.
3: Nurfing sounds stupid, not to mention that GK's went from bottom of the barrel to top dog, so talk about nerfing is silly. New GK's would spank the old ones up, down and side to side with one arm tied to their backs.

Well yes psychoc nades are nasty, but not broken. Again in CC GKs are supposed to be the best, everything is geared toward that, but things like jaws of the world could end that fight with a good roll. As for nids having 2x more numbers then GK have attacks (unless its purifiers) your good. As for purifiers you have to bring in the heavy hitters to handle.

GK can be shooty, at the cost of CC. it becomes a choice or make expensive terms.

Fortitude is undercosted, however its hardly as broken as people claim. It just means you can't stun vehicles each turn and be done with it.

Lolz. Obviously, you don't play armies that rely on stun-locking as part of their strategy for winning/ competing in a game?

If you can't kill an AV12 walker then you need to rethink your army.

Yeah, good luck with that when they are bunkered up in a ruin that's been fortified. Only a fool would think that nothing is wrong with psyrifleman dreads. Then you add in the other stupid stuff the army has. While my W/L ratio vs. GK is really no different than any other armies I play against...I will say that the GKs army is the army I have the least amount of fun facing. The army is simply boring to play against as all of them are built essentially the same way.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

Fortitude is undercosted, however its hardly as broken as people claim. It just means you can't stun vehicles each turn and be done with it.

Lolz. Obviously, you don't play armies that rely on stun-locking as part of their strategy for winning/ competing in a game?

If you can't kill an AV12 walker then you need to rethink your army.

Yeah, good luck with that when they are bunkered up in a ruin that's been fortified. Only a fool would think that nothing is wrong with psyrifleman dreads. Then you add in the other stupid stuff the army has. While my W/L ratio vs. GK is really no different than any other armies I play against...I will say that the GKs army is the army I have the least amount of fun facing. The army is simply boring to play against as all of them are built essentially the same way.

Ok the statement that they're all built the same way is a silly statement since every army looks a lot alike in competitive games. I've never been to a tourney big or small where the stereotyped lists weren in abundance.
Oh you think killing a gk walker is annoying try killing an ig squad with camo cloaks that likes to go to ground and use the other get back in the fight. You're arguement hold water like a wire basket.

Oh sweet, another argument about Grey knights being overpowered. I especially like it when people qualify their statements by saying they personally don't lose to Grey Knights, but the codex is still OP.