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I've gotten into a few minor arguments about whether embarked passengers will get a 5+ cover save from the KFF if the vehicle explodes. The BRB pg. 67states that these wounds are "treated just like hits from shooting". I see nothing that restricts me from getting my KFF save or even a 4+ save if the vehicle was in area terrain. Does anyone disagree?

yes to the 5+ from the KFF. No to the 4+, you're not in the terrain at the time your vehicle blows up. You're not placed into the terrain until after all the explosion results.

Technically yes. although if you assume the forcefield it a dome around the mek then 'realistically' they shouldn't, but rules > realism. IF you want to make it fit a bit better, assume the forcefield projects a small individual field around each model it protects, which could also, to a point, explain why only 1 model of a unit needs to be within 6" for the whole team to get a save.

Actually you're not quite right on your idea there. The vehicle is what is within the KFF, not the unit inside the transport vehicle. I'll try to explain it a little better now.

The timing of the wounds is what prevents you from getting a cover save. When you take the wounds from the vehicle exploding the passengers are NOT in the area terrain even if the vehicle is. Since the wounds are taken before you place the remains of the unit in the crater left behind, you are not actually in terrain to claim a 4+ cover save or even a KFF cover save. I may be wrong on the KFF bit, but I don't believe I am on the cover save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thought about it a bit more with the KFF. In my interpretation of the rules you would not get the save because once the vehicle is destroyed the unit technically is no longer in range of the KFF until they are placed from the explosion, which is the final step.

KFF's still work whist inside a vehicle plus as the explosion counts as shooting dmg, RaW the KFF save can be used. Again, Rules > Realism.

Bloodfever wrote:KFF's still work whist inside a vehicle plus as the explosion counts as shooting dmg, RaW the KFF save can be used. Again, Rules > Realism.

Mine however is rules. Whether people play it or not there is a step by step on how to handle vehicle explosions which is as follows;

1. Determine the explosion radius by rolling a D6, all models in range suffer a S3 hit.
2. The vehicle is then replaced with a suitable crater or area of difficult terrain. If there are passengers present proceed to step 3.
3. Roll a Strength 4 hit on all occupants of the vehicle.
4. Roll saves as if from shooting.
5. Place remaining squad members in crater.

Between steps 2 and 5, there are no models on the table to be in range to. The vehicle has been destroyed and replaced with a crater, but the unit itself has not reappeared. Thus without any way to physically measure if you are in range of the KFF, you have no cover save from said item. As you said, rules > realism, mine is supported by the rules.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Bloodfever wrote:KFF's still work whist inside a vehicle plus as the explosion counts as shooting dmg, RaW the KFF save can be used. Again, Rules > Realism.

Mine however is rules. Whether people play it or not there is a step by step on how to handle vehicle explosions which is as follows;

1. Determine the explosion radius by rolling a D6, all models in range suffer a S3 hit.
2. The vehicle is then replaced with a suitable crater or area of difficult terrain. If there are passengers present proceed to step 3.
3. Roll a Strength 4 hit on all occupants of the vehicle.
4. Roll saves as if from shooting.
5. Place remaining squad members in crater.

Between steps 2 and 5, there are no models on the table to be in range to. The vehicle has been destroyed and replaced with a crater, but the unit itself has not reappeared. Thus without any way to physically measure if you are in range of the KFF, you have no cover save from said item. As you said, rules > realism, mine is supported by the rules.

Attached, coherency, size of footprint, etc

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Bloodfever wrote:KFF's still work whist inside a vehicle plus as the explosion counts as shooting dmg, RaW the KFF save can be used. Again, Rules > Realism.

Mine however is rules. Whether people play it or not there is a step by step on how to handle vehicle explosions which is as follows;

1. Determine the explosion radius by rolling a D6, all models in range suffer a S3 hit.
2. The vehicle is then replaced with a suitable crater or area of difficult terrain. If there are passengers present proceed to step 3.
3. Roll a Strength 4 hit on all occupants of the vehicle.
4. Roll saves as if from shooting.
5. Place remaining squad members in crater.

Between steps 2 and 5, there are no models on the table to be in range to. The vehicle has been destroyed and replaced with a crater, but the unit itself has not reappeared. Thus without any way to physically measure if you are in range of the KFF, you have no cover save from said item. As you said, rules > realism, mine is supported by the rules.

Yet if the KFF mek is attached to the sqaud by rules he has to be within 2" of them?

the Mek is definitely within 6" of himself at all times though.

I'm running on the assumption of the KFF being outside the vehicle, and a unit inside is taking the damage. If the Big mek were a part of the unit in the transport then the unit would get the KFF cover save.

Lone Dragoon - I know exactly where the unit is. Page 66, embarked models.

They are very definitely within 6" of the hull, in fact are congruent with it as far as the rules are concerned. So your bulllet points are fine, just missing a rule which entirely alters the conclusion.

On a side note (assuming the Mek is in the transport) , after you roll the range for the explosion, Where do you measure for KFF to affect other units? Do you still use the range from the (now exploded vehicle) or do you use the Mek who at this point is not on the table yet?

So the models magically vanish from existence for a moment? To determine if the KFF provides a save it depends on where the KFF is. If it is from inside then the save is from the radius of the vehicle and should be used on any surrounding models until the models are placed and as any occupants 'vanish' with the Big Mek they are constantly protected by the KFF. If it from outside, then as long as the vehicle was in range when it exploded then the KFF protects the occupants as the occupants are supposed to be placed where the vehicle exploded.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lone Dragoon - I know exactly where the unit is. Page 66, embarked models.

They are very definitely within 6" of the hull, in fact are congruent with it as far as the rules are concerned. So your bulllet points are fine, just missing a rule which entirely alters the conclusion.

Once the vehicle explodes it is no longer on the table, thus you cannot measure to it. I then ask you to measure to where the unit is. The vehicle that they were inside is no longer on the table, and the unit inside is not on the table until after saves are made. There is a point when neither the vehicle nor the unit is on the table, how can they be measured to?

Lone Dragoon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lone Dragoon - I know exactly where the unit is. Page 66, embarked models.

They are very definitely within 6" of the hull, in fact are congruent with it as far as the rules are concerned. So your bulllet points are fine, just missing a rule which entirely alters the conclusion.

Once the vehicle explodes it is no longer on the table, thus you cannot measure to it. I then ask you to measure to where the unit is. The vehicle that they were inside is no longer on the table, and the unit inside is not on the table until after saves are made. There is a point when neither the vehicle nor the unit is on the table, how can they be measured to?

well if you do it like that, then once you remove the tank from the table, none of the units near it could be hit with the explosion. Its not there to measure to.


I see where you went wrong it should be steps:

1 roll for range.
2. roll for wounds.
3. take saves.
4. remove vehicle.
5. place models.

pg 61 says suffer the hits, then remove the vehicle.

so with this in mind if the big mek is on the vehicle everyone around it would get the 5+ cover saves, along with anyone inside of it. Even if the big mek is next to the vehicle the unit inside should still get the 5+.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Lone Dragoon - I know exactly where the unit is. Page 66, embarked models.

They are very definitely within 6" of the hull, in fact are congruent with it as far as the rules are concerned. So your bulllet points are fine, just missing a rule which entirely alters the conclusion.

Once the vehicle explodes it is no longer on the table, thus you cannot measure to it. I then ask you to measure to where the unit is. The vehicle that they were inside is no longer on the table, and the unit inside is not on the table until after saves are made. There is a point when neither the vehicle nor the unit is on the table, how can they be measured to?

Ah, youre misreading another rule - timing. You resolve hits THEN remove the vehilce and THEN place models in the crater

So the models count as being still inside the transport (embarked) when you work out the explosion.

Assuming the KFF is outside the vehicle the question is "Do Embarked models benifit from effects outside the transport?"

Well on page 67 of the brb it doesn't say remove the vehicle before counting up hits on the embarked models so if you tally up before removing the vehicle and the KFF reached the vehicle (and hits are treated JUST like shooting) the units should get a +5 cover save. THEN remove the vehicle and after place the survivors.

Yes, because they are withing 6" - page 66 again.