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Suffering from major brain freeze...

1) Is this a correct statement: "Cover saves can only be taken against shooting attacks"
2) Can you take coversaves from a bomb squig? It's not a shooting attack... it's a wargear that is used during the shooting phase.

I've been told that big squigs ignores cover saves... and I'm like... whaaaa?? That doesn't quite pass the gut check...

What do you think?

whembly wrote:1) Is this a correct statement: "Cover saves can only be taken against shooting attacks"

No. You can take a cover save against anything that does not deny a cover save.
You're denied from taking cover saves in CC.

From what I gather, you shouldn't need to take a cover save against a Bomb squig (troops) as a bomb-squig only damages vehicles (or anything with F-S-R armour values) when it says they detonate, I think it means basically it is removed, it doesn't have a blast marker. For vehicles, if it does reach one, I think its an auto s8 hit, so nullifies cover/obscured vehicle saves.
I could be wrong, so if anyone else knows otherwise.....

Bloodfever wrote:From what I gather, you shouldn't need to take a cover save against a Bomb squig (troops) as a bomb-squig only damages vehicles (or anything with F-S-R armour values) when it says they detonate, I think it means basically it is removed, it doesn't have a blast marker. For vehicles, if it does reach one, I think its an auto s8 hit, so nullifies cover/obscured vehicle saves.
I could be wrong, so if anyone else knows otherwise.....

^^^ that's what my friend was saying... that is awesome-sauce if true.

If that's the case, I'd throw a couple of tankbusta squads with squiggies in my KanWall list and give it a whirl...

Q: How are cover saves worked out for smart missile
systems and seeker missiles as they do not need line of
sight? (p27, 30)
A: The target will only receive cover saves that are not
based on line of sight. This would include when at least
half the unit is in area terrain; or a vehicle with wargear or
a special rule that means they are obscurred.

I cannot see why Bomb Squigs would operate differently as it does have a roll to hit even though it is a special result, the fact it walks doesn't mean it is immune to cover IMHO, just LOS has no impact on determining cover.

No FAQ for squigs = Argument so ask opponents pre-game.

nkelsch wrote:Q: How are cover saves worked out for smart missile
systems and seeker missiles as they do not need line of
sight? (p27, 30)
A: The target will only receive cover saves that are not
based on line of sight. This would include when at least
half the unit is in area terrain; or a vehicle with wargear or
a special rule that means they are obscurred.

I cannot see why Bomb Squigs would operate differently as it does have a roll to hit even though it is a special result, the fact it walks doesn't mean it is immune to cover IMHO, just LOS has no impact on determining cover.

No FAQ for squigs = Argument so ask opponents pre-game.

But you don't "roll to hit" with squig... just on a D6 and a 2+ it goes up to 18" to explode on a vehicle.

I just personally don't see how a cover save could be given for a squig that runs under or into a vehicle. The only question I would have, is with the "18 inches it moves, does it ignore difficult terrain, which I would assume it does as RAW states that it runs "18 towards the vehicle, mentioning nothing about DT or having to roll for movement. So if it can come into contact with a vehicle within the "18 it is an auto-hit.

Bloodfever wrote:I just personally don't see how a cover save could be given for a squig that runs under or into a vehicle. The only question I would have, is with the "18 inches it moves, does it ignore difficult terrain, which I would assume it does as RAW states that it runs "18 towards the vehicle, mentioning nothing about DT or having to roll for movement. So if it can come into contact with a vehicle within the "18 it is an auto-hit.

Found a FAQ entry! w00t!

Q. Do Bomb Squigs require line of sight and can
they move through impassable terrain? Where is
their range measured from?
A. No line of sight is required and they move
freely regardless of any impediments. Range is
measured from whichever model in the unit is
declared to be releasing the Squig (or, in the case
of embarked Tankbustas, from the vehicle if opentopped,
or from a fire point if not open-topped).

Bloodfever wrote:For vehicles, if it does reach one, I think its an auto s8 hit, so nullifies cover/obscured vehicle saves.
I could be wrong, so if anyone else knows otherwise.....

Why would an automatic hit nullify Cover saves? Vehicles take Cover saves against glancing or penetrating hits, which is determined only after a hit is scored and penetration rolled.

Ofc, it's not a shooting attack far as I can tell... so a purely LOS-based cover save shouldn't work. But if you can claim one for KFF effects, Skimmers Moving Fast or being in area terrain, go ahead.

rigeld2 wrote:

whembly wrote:1) Is this a correct statement: "Cover saves can only be taken against shooting attacks"

No. You can take a cover save against anything that does not deny a cover save. You're denied from taking cover saves in CC.

Ork Codex, pg 42, Bomb-squigs: "A Tankbusta may release a Bomb-squig instead of shooting."

BRB Pg 21, What counts as Cover?: "Cover is basically anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots."

BRB Pg 39, Taking Saves: "Cover does not provide protection in close combat as it does against shooting. [ ] models do not get cover saves against any wounds suffered in close combat,"

There is at least one other thread discussing (if you wish to use such a dignified term) whether Cover Saves can protect a model from all wounds/glance/pens other than CC or specifically denied situations. May we please not discuss that here? Let's focus on if the Bomb-squig hit is considered a shooting attack, and if not, what it is. I would say no. It is a ranged wargear effect, so no cover save would be afforded. What do you guys think?

The (or just "a"?) FAQ seemed to clarify this. Something can only ever take a cover save, if that cover safe is NOT generated by line of sight.

So, cover saves from intervening terrain would not be allowed.

Cover saves from moving flat out, or from KFF's, would be allowed.

Not sure if I pulled this from the official FAQ or from INAT, though.

The point is that cover works against wounds/penetrating or glancing hits in general, not JUST against ones inflicted by shooting. Close combat attacks specifically ignore cover, but bomb squigs aren't close combat attacks.

The FAQ NKelsh quoted should apply. So the defender will get a cover save only if it's from an effect not based on LOS.

Obviously we are all debating cover saves for vehicles, troops have no bearing as the bomb squig cannot damage them so in the BRB page 62 - " Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain, the 50% given rule above takes precedence" and as the bomb squid's movement is controlled I think it may be a fact of discovering if the potential 50% can be taken from the squigs LoS (which I would assume it does) not the ork releasing it. Wargear saves such as a KFF would always give the save regardless.

Bloodfever wrote:Wargear saves such as a KFF would always give the save regardless.

Or rule-granted cover saves such as Skimmers Moving Fast.

Grakmar wrote:

Bloodfever wrote:Wargear saves such as a KFF would always give the save regardless.

Or rule-granted cover saves such as Skimmers Moving Fast.

Hmmm... unfortunately skimmers moving flat out is still open to interpretation as the +4 is used when it is 'fired at' and its not really determined if the squig is classed as 'fired'.

Bloodfever wrote:Obviously we are all debating cover saves for vehicles, troops have no bearing as the bomb squig cannot damage them so in the BRB page 62 - " Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside area terrain, the 50% given rule above takes precedence" and as the bomb squid's movement is controlled I think it may be a fact of discovering if the potential 50% can be taken from the squigs LoS (which I would assume it does) not the ork releasing it. Wargear saves such as a KFF would always give the save regardless.

From Ork FAQ:

Q. Do Bomb Squigs require line of sight and can
they move through impassable terrain? Where is
their range measured from?
A. No line of sight is required and they move
freely regardless of any impediments. Range is
measured from whichever model in the unit is
declared to be releasing the Squig (or, in the case
of embarked Tankbustas, from the vehicle if opentopped,
or from a fire point if not open-topped).

Doesn't this implies that you wouldn't need LOS? Therefore, any vehicle in cover (ie, at least 50% rule) wouldn't get cover. But any coversaves granted by other rule/wargear (ie, flatout or kff) would still get their cover saves...

Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bloodfever wrote:

Grakmar wrote:

Bloodfever wrote:Wargear saves such as a KFF would always give the save regardless.

Or rule-granted cover saves such as Skimmers Moving Fast.

Hmmm... unfortunately skimmers moving flat out is still open to interpretation as the +4 is used when it is 'fired at' and its not really determined if the squig is classed as 'fired'.

Oh...

Now I'm even more confused...

Cover saves are all good unless the weapon profile itself states that it ignores cover, such as a flamer.

Godeth wrote:Cover saves are all good unless the weapon profile itself states that it ignores cover, such as a flamer.

That's just it... it's not classified as a "normal shooting attack" and it doesn't have a "weapons profile". It's a wargear.

Hence the confusion...

whembly wrote:

Godeth wrote:Cover saves are all good unless the weapon profile itself states that it ignores cover, such as a flamer.

That's just it... it's not classified as a "normal shooting attack" and it doesn't have a "weapons profile". It's a wargear.

Hence the confusion...

It does not need to be a "normal shooting attack" to grant cover. It needs to have a reason to deny cover, or it grants cover.

kirsanth wrote:

whembly wrote:

Godeth wrote:Cover saves are all good unless the weapon profile itself states that it ignores cover, such as a flamer.

That's just it... it's not classified as a "normal shooting attack" and it doesn't have a "weapons profile". It's a wargear.

Hence the confusion...

It does not need to be a "normal shooting attack" to grant cover. It needs to have a reason to deny cover, or it grants cover.

*click*
Agreed!
Now I get it... THANKS.

I would like to see what everyone's thoughts are on this topic now that 6th ed is in play.
If I take off where this was last left, if a cover save is granted, what kind of save is it?

Since vehicle cover saves from obscured targets does not seem to apply here, since the FAQ says no line of sight is needed. I would ask, if you cannot see it, what cover save does it get. All vehicle obscured targets require that you see the vehicle for shooting Even when you cannot see the correct facing, but you can see another, it still requires you to see the vehicle for it to receive a cover save from shooting (3+). So even if squig is shooting, it does not fit into the obscured target rules. Therefore, it may not be shooting.

But is releasing a squig shooting? I do not believe that it is, it is done instead of shooting and in the shooting phase by RAW. I think it is correct to take the situation of when you cannot see it and you can still hit it, means that obscured cover saves do not apply at all.

I could see the other arguments for cover saves by war gear or ability, but not anything that is giving it a cover save from shooting.

Being obscured requires that at least 25% is out of LoS. Is 100% at least 25%? Why yes, it is. What cover save does it get? Depends on what terrain is in the way.

Being out of sight changes absolutely nothing in regards to cover saves.

Now that is a very interesting way of looking at it. You made me look at the rules for shooting at a vehicle. First sentence, bold, "when a unit fires at a vehicle, it must be able to see its hull or turret." So for a unit to "fire" aka shot at a vehicle it has to see it first, then you apply the obscured target 25%.

A bomb squig can hit a vehicle it cannot see, so it seems to reason the following:
1) the bomb squig is not "firing" or shooting as that would require seeing a vehicle
2) obscured vehicle rule "HULL DOWN" cover save usage would not be used.

I am very open to further discussion. I am only asking this as I will be using them in a GT tournament this month and I want to play them correctly.

As was stated many times in this thread, shooting is not required for cover saves to apply. None of the logic behind that statement has changed in going to 6th edition from 5th (or 3rd for that matter).

Mind you, you can make a RaW argument that cover doesn't apply to anything other than shooting, but that argument has an unfortunate side-effect: it also rules out rolling for penetration and damage results.

If you accept that you're going to roll for penetration and damage, you must also accept that you accordingly roll cover saves in between those steps, except where specifically disallowed (e.g. close combat). Once you've invoked the chain of resolving a hit, taking a cover save is simply a step in that chain.

Closed for Necromancy