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If a Farseer is by himself at the beginning of a turn and casts Fortune on himself, will Fortune be transfered to any unit he joins and stays with that movement phase? I would say yes but I was just wondering if anyone has any rules/answers that would say otherwise.

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Fortune targets a single unit, and then allows that unit to re-roll all saves. If you are casting Fortune on yourself your target is the Farseer 'unit' (an IC). However as soon as you uses his IC status to join a unit for all intents and purposes the Farseer 'unit' no longer exists (except in assault) as he becomes part of the unit he is attached to. As such you can't use Fortune since the unit you cast it on isn't in play. It doesn't magically transfer to a unit you didn't cast it on.

Note that this works the other way around as well. If a Farseer is with a unit, casts Fortune on it and then leaves the unit he would not get the benefits of Fortune but the unit would. In addition even if you wanted to the Seer couldn't cast Fortune on just himself when he is attached at the start of the turn, because he is not a unit until after he breaks off from the unit. If it did work like you are suggesting then every Eldar player would be casting Fortune on a unit with a Farseer in it, then shuffling him to another unit to effective get Fortune on two units at once, which clearly isn't right
   
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RAW it does not transfer to the rest of the group. HIWPI, on the other hand, is it would still benefit the Farseer. That may be RAW, but I'm not sure.

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Happyjew wrote:RAW it does not transfer to the rest of the group.


I disagree. I don't think there is a clear RAW reading either way. To have it not affect both the Farseer and the unit causes a lot of problems, more problems, in fact, than the other reading. For instance - if a Hive Tyrant hits a unit with Paroxysm and an IC leaves the unit, he suddenly is immune to the effects of Paroxysm? This is the exact same situation as Fortune, but a positive impact instead of negative.

The INAT has ruled that it only affects one of the two units, but there was a big dicussion on it. Yakface did a great job of describing how both camps see the argument:

yakface wrote:This seems like a good a place as any to comment on this topic (since someone already brought it up).

puma713 actually contacted me a while ago expressing his concern with how we ruled in the INAT on this topic and I thought that his points had a lot of validity so I spent a lot of time thinking about the issue and eventually we discussed it for the INAT in the latest updated and decided to stick with the ruling we already had, but I'll go into more detail as to why I think one method is more correct (IMHO) then the other:


There are two ways to interpret this type of issue in 40K, and honestly I believe either is a valid interpretation to play with as long as your opponent is on the same page as you.

1) The first interpretation is what I call the 'snapshot' method, and what players like puma713 (and others) believes to be correct...that at a time a special rule that has a duration is activated you essentially take a 'snapshot' of the affected target at that exact point and time. You then assume that the affected target remains affected regardless of whether parts of it later split off from the unit or the model generating the special rule subsequently dies...it doesn't matter since whatever was affected at the 'snapshot' remains affected for the listed duration.

I think in most ways this interpretation seems to be more 'realistic' (as far as you can use that term for 40K) because it seems pretty silly that a guy (an IC) affected by a psychic power can somehow avoid it just by leaving his unit...in 'real world' terms that doesn't make a whole lot of sense (generally).


2) The second interpretation is what I call the 'target-duration' method and this is the method that players like nosferatu (and others, including myself) believe to be correct. In this case you look at the rule, it will have a target listed and a duration listed. Under this interpretation you say that the target is what is affected for the duration listed. Since a unit is generally the target listed for a power (for example), if an IC leaves the unit he is no longer part of the unit and therefore no longer affected by the power. This same interpretation also tends to mean that the source of the 'power' has to remain in play or else that rule is no longer in effect...which means if the Farseer casting Fortune is killed (for example) then the effects of Fortune would immediately end (which would not be the case for the 'snapshot' method).

Now, while the 'target-duration' interpretation may not make as much 'real world' sense as the 'snapshot' method, I do think it follows the rules of the game more closely and therefore is probably more correct if you think of yourself more of a 'RAW' gamer. . .


. . .I really do think both interpretations are valid to play by, and I would gladly play either way personally, but if having to pick I think the 'target-duration' interpretation is the better way to play, even if it doesn't always make the most 'real world' sense.


There are several threads regarding this:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/343497.page#2391965

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/338492.page

It is not nearly as cut and dry as many would like to feel.



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Yeah, I don't think this question is clearly defined in the rules.

There is absolutely no support in the argument that the Fortune power ceases to work when the Farseer joins a unit.

Based on the wording of the power ("the unit targeted gets to...until the start of the next turn"), and the sheer lack of wording in the IC joining units section of the BRB suggesting the IC stops being a unit, I would argue that RAW only the Farseer keeps Fortune if joining another unit OR Farseer keeps power and transfers it onto other unit.

The question is to be decided by GW I guess, they have yet t address this question which isn't very frequent, I guess.

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The RAW doesn't have a totally clear answer. And, there's even stranger examples than the one you posted.

For example: Say two Farseers are joined together. That unit gets Fortune cast on it. Then, they seperate into two units. Do both have Fortune because they both had it cast on them? Do neither one have Fortune because the unit they were in doesn't really exist any more? Does only 1 of them have Fortune? How is it determined which one?


Personally, I like to play that when a unit has Guide/Fortune cast on it, it sticks with any models that were in the unit at the time. If anyone joins, they do not get the effect. If anyone leaves, they carry it with them.

Doom is obviously trickier since re-rolling to wound is done on the unit and not the model.

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This about the 400th time this has been brought up on Dakka Dakka.

RAW has no clear answer. You can debate until you are blue in the face of discuss it before a game happens.

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Maybe there should be a sticky with relevant posts to frequently brought up issues. I guess I should run this by tournament organizers and let them decide, thanks guys!

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My gaming blog regarding Eldar and soon to be CSM:Thousand Sons: http://yriel.blogspot.com/

My WIP Tyranid Fandex:
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