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How incompetent are the French Police? Seriously, there is one man, with a fair amount of arms, holed up in an apartment, possibly with explosives and no hostages. (Well done to the Police however for cornering this Rat, so quickly)
The initial police knocked on the door of a suspected armed man who had potentially shot 6-7 people, and several of the Police Officers were shot through the door and wounded. Oh the suspect was supposedly a battle harden taliban on the frontlines of afghanistan, this guy is no Lunatic he is a harden trained Zealot with a degree (albeit low) of professionalism and competence with Small Arms.
So they have been throwing flash bangs in randomly to unsettle him over 30 hours, they have only evacuated 100m around the apartment (the man has automatic weapons the cordon should be alot bigger to protect the public).
At 10:33 GMT I heared a 90 second firefight live on SKY NEWS, (Which is not in the POLICE MO they shoot at targets not suppression and firefight tactics) and the latest is that 2 Police Officers wounded and another gravely wounded, still no news on the Suspect? (all a bit sketchy and unverified)
It didn't sound like an assault, there was no overwhelming force (using gas, flashbangs and hyper aggression) just a gradual exponential increase in the weight of fire over 90 seconds (will post up a video asap) . There has been no mention of GIGN throughout which makes me wonder who was incharge of the OP.
This is high risk, and to throw your Officers in to aliviate political criticism of the President as he's 3 weeks from an Election, is pretty ruthless. You should always wait and keep talking as long as possible, wear them down, the only thing at risk is your Officers. The suspect is either going to go quitely and be locked up and tried or get killed. This whole thing smacks of Tactical incompetence and political interference.
EDIT - just heard the Ministers statement, this guy got the drop on the Police during their Raid by hiding in the Bathroom shot his AK at close range and hit a few of them, he escaped through a window and was found dead somewhere nearby. They went in through the Front Door! What a Cluster - feth. This is going to wound Sarkozy big time, he's just lost the election for sure. Is French Counter Terrorism training basically watching the film "LEON" ?
The French are useless at this kind of thing, stick to cooking, making love and making wine.
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Sounds like they're screwing around too much, I can understand be cautious given the weapon the suspect has but it sounds like they'd get somewhat of the same result by occasionally throwing a rock through one of the windows.
Words fail me... This is the translation of the Interior minister
Never seen this level of Violence? Wtf do they think they are trained for? Gathering Flowers? Either Mentally they are not cut out for it (unlikely) or the Politicians are trying to deflect blame onto the Police (I would probably go with this, I cannot imagine Armed Officers Lacking aggression, muscle memory alone would galvanise you to action).
£5 says a Sniper got him, when he leapt out of the window.
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Hundreds...Who knows, thats why so many Military and Police are being mobilised for the 2012 Olympics. I won't be going on the tube during the Olympics put it that way.
EDIT - Surprised the French Police haven't heard of or opted for "Dynamic Entry".
Listen to this 1:14 onwards does that fit with the Ministers description?... They got lucky, he could have killed alot of the Police team.
The very loud gunfire at 1:56 sounds like high calibre although with the Urban Environment it's hard to tell. But it sounds like this was the point when he escaped and it could be him firing or a Police Backstop team putting try putting him down. Complete Mess, makes WACO look like tactical perfection.
He's dead, they haven't suffered any loses so that's to the good, they got very lucky.
Your thoughts gentlemen please!
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Good riddence the loony-toons moron is dead and the tax payers dime won't be wasted on keeping his worthless butthole alive in prison!
Situations like this are why I feel instead of a police team, you should just send in a military special forces unit. The officers, even though highly trained, may likely not have much/any experience in dealing with these kinds of senarios.
A special forces units has likely scene some combat, and is also much faster on the trigger when they have the suspect in sight!
You hear about the French-aided intervention in Lybia, and they gain a small amount of credibility in your eyes...
...then you hear about something like this, and it's gone again.
/golf clap
Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation
I'd prefer him to stand trial. Humiliate him, making him feel impotent and imprisoned by the very institution and society he wants to destroy and let him grind out his time in isolation.
Experiment 626 wrote:Good riddence the loony-toons moron is dead and the tax payers dime won't be wasted on keeping his worthless butthole alive in prison!
Much I as I want (at an emotion level) to agree with this, it leads us down the path of Kill everyone in Prison to save money. If I did believe this, I would have said why bother with the Police and SF, Fire into his apartment with a Tank or something. No risk of Civilian casualties, but lots of damage pay off the locals for damages (it'll still be cheaper than Prison for 45 years) he's dead. As it stands the amount of rounds fired I'm guess there are alot of holes all over the place.
I think we have the balance about right in Europe between protection and imprisonment. The Moderate way is best, it's too easy to become radical even with the best of intentions.
Could have left him for 6-7 Days, what was he going to do? If attacked the Police they would kill him or capture him. If he had escaped he would have walked straight into the police cordon. Weaken him, slowly, lack of water and food, suddenly you supply them to him and he becomes dependant on you. Put sedatives in his water, sedatives in the food, Gas him. There are a myriad of ways of doing this, this was Sarkozy playing the Putin hard man. Politicians should stay out of Policing and focus on Law making and International relations.
It is possible the Team was Military posing as Police, the SAS does this regularly to keep them reasonably covert.
One things for Sure, Lord Castellan Creed would have infiltrated into the Bath itself and caught him "Surprise Cockfag"..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote:
£5 says a Sniper got him, when he leapt out of the window.
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Could have been worse eh? Shot three guys, but they all lived and he took one in the swede. Not a bad result.
"Police commandos"
They should have used a proper commando!
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
notprop wrote:The news reported that the fugitive was shot in the head as he jump through a window shooting.
I thought this was French France not Hollywood!
Not to be confused with non-French France?
Does sound a bit John Woo, and thats generally not how things happen in the real world. Well it's sad, well done to the Sniper. Learn the tactical lessons, and for god's sake keep the senior Politicians out of the picture. The minister of the interior was hiding behind a Police Van throughout, the French Police are good enough, as are their Commanders, you always make bad decisions if someone is breathing down your neck demanding results. Just like in the military, leave it to the Professionals and Politicians should bite their tongues.
How often have you seen a Police Press Conference, hijacked by the Interior Minister for Political gain?
The sick bastard also filmed the killings, and they have the footage... Just plain sad.
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mwnciboo wrote:Words fail me... This is the translation of the Interior minister
Never seen this level of Violence? Wtf do they think they are trained for? Gathering Flowers? Either Mentally they are not cut out for it (unlikely)or the Politicians are trying to deflect blame onto the Police (I would probably go with this, I cannot imagine Armed Officers Lacking aggression, muscle memory alone would galvanise you to action).
£5 says a Sniper got him, when he leapt out of the window.
RAID officers are not to be blamed, they obey to higher authority.
My opinion is that maintaining this siege for as long as possible gave a long opportunity for the gorvernment to take a political advantage over the other candidates for the presidential elections. Gueant ( Interior minister ) tried to show the implication of the governement as much as he could and have probably delayed the intervention to emphasize on this implication. In the same time Copé (official head of the UMP -Sarkozy's party) made a violent speech against any candidate who expressed themselves on the subject (and mainly criticizing the lack of efficiency of the govt), invoking the necessary decency the school shooting implied, to prevent any of these candidate to take advantage of the situation. Finally, Sarkozy who's candidate for his own re-election made an official speech as President with big-new-laws-announcements, trying to renew the presidential stature he wiped his with for all his mandate...Welcome to France...
I actually agree with you on the Sarkozy point. But I think the RAID had this forced on them. They didn't need to go in? The interior minister didn't need to say the piece about officer never seeing this level of violence, it's almost demeaning to RAID and makes him look aloof and statesman like.
Is there a clear divorce in France between the State and Law enforcement? In the UK the Home Secretary can direct, but they choose not too and the Police fight them on this even if they do. Our London riots last year were an example where the Police resisted Political interference.
So whats your take on the election is Sarkozy done for?
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mwnciboo wrote: I actually agree with you on the Sarkozy point. But I think the RAID had this forced on them. They didn't need to go in? The interior minister didn't need to say the piece about officer never seeing this level of violence, it's almost demeaning to RAID and makes him look aloof and statesman like.
I agree with you, but it's in the straight line of this government's behaviour - but that's another subjet-
mwnciboo wrote: Is there a clear divorce in France between the State and Law enforcement? In the UK the Home Secretary can direct, but they choose not too and the Police fight them on this even if they do. Our London riots last year were an example where the Police resisted Political interference.
No there's not such a possibility in France for the various Police corps to resist. The commandment line is clear and the nomination of the local prefects is highly political. However there is a divorce between policemen and the various governments we had for many years, they're tired of being instrumentalised for political meanings (like with the quotas and arrest objectives).
mwnciboo wrote:So whats your take on the election is Sarkozy done for?
Can't say. He has a solid chance to get re-elected. People don't blame him much on his policy, but rather on his personality. Of course the French situation is not brilliant, and we all feel a degradation, but the level of the presidential campaign is so low - and believe me it's so empty on both sides it's shameful- that people might want to vote for him because at least they know what to expect, and they don't expect much.
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For the birth place of modern Democracy to be so apathetic is a bit disconcerting.
It's strange because you've always had such sophisticated, articulate, enigmatic and mercurial Presidents in the past. *Shrugs*.
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Officers never seen anything like this type of violence!
That reminds me of Demolition Man!
Police today.. what a bunch of jessies. I would pay for the opportunity to barge into a terrorists bathroom with a sack full of grenades and a decent firearm!
They should have got the army to do it, Policemen are weak. The only good firearm cops I know are blokes who left the military.
In short, they are slower, older and fatter and less well drilled than they used to be. I think in situations like this they (police) should instantly hand jurisdiction over.
Id have got on the phone to Commandement des Opérations Spéciales and demanded some bérets verts.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
RAID are supposed to be the goto unit, but I always remember GIGN being the real high end operators ,although Military, unlike FBI HRT or GSG9 ( Grenzschutzgruppe 9 (border guard group 9) are probably the best operators in Europe).
Alot of this doesn't seem to chime either. 1:26 He ordered them not to fire? Who was shooting one man sounds like too much gunfire for one man? He also says they knew he was in the Bathroom? Still not convinced about this whole thing.
If someone can verify the english translation of the Chief's words?
@Mattrym you know what? Britain is the exception as we use Military Forces when we enact "Military aid to civil power" ususally requested by a Chief Constable but authorisation held at ministerial or Prime Ministerial level. Most other countries have a decent Elite Police Unit, we shouldn't use Military Units for this it is Police Work.
RAID - GSG9 - FBI HRT - Are all part of the Civil or Para-Military Police. Britain is the exception, so to compare are Military Elite unit to their Elite Police Units isn't fair. Plus they may call upon these without using a Military Force on Domestic soil (actually a huge issue when you think about it). All of these Countries also have Military Special Forces. This is a Policing Matter and therefore I think it should always be Police and Internal Security Forces not the Military.
In short, they are slower, older and fatter and less well drilled than they used to be. I think in situations like this they (police) should instantly hand jurisdiction over.
Also these Guys look pretty fit to me..
Not many Fat guys in that RAID unit.
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Yeah but thats my point, I dont believe that the civvie sector has the backbone to train Policemen up sufficiently. They cant put policemen through the same mental and physical rigours that they can demand of servicemen.
To go from normal Army Infantry to SF you have to attend several epic legs of selection, do you think coppers go through anything even remotely similar to become armed policemen?
If a hostage situation arises, Id rather they send some extremely well drilled combat veterans from the SAS ala the Embassy siege over some Chicken gak Armed Police squadron, I don't care how "elite" they think they are!
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mwnciboo wrote:
Not many Fat guys in that RAID unit.
Fitness isn't everything, how many of them have been in a gun fight? How many of them have been engaged with automatic weaponry by multiple well armed assailants from numerous positions?
You cant teach that cold calculating sense that combat veterans posses. I was scared the first time I got shot at, I was less scared the tenth time, and by the twentieth I was as cool as a cucumber, I think you subconsciously start to think "I was alright the last 8 times so I bet these fethers will miss this time as well"
I think veteran status and experience is far more important than "basic" training, no matter the length if I'm honest.
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We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Okay, I'll give you the selection piece. But their roles are fundamentally different.
One's MO is to assault and kill the enemy.
The Other is to apprehend if possible, and only use lethal force if directly threatened.
It gets confused when UKSF have had to act like Police Officers in Hostage Rescue situations. Because the Police never had this Capability back in 81, they used Military SF to do it because the UK Police couldn't do it. This was consolidated by Margaret Thatcher using Military SF to end a Knife Hostage situation at a Prison. It is now the perception in Britain that the SAS do anything Terrorism related and thats not right.
Look at the syllabus and compare it with your Commando training, things like High speed Driving etc feature, as do Tear gas and Flashbangs last I checked this wasn't what every recruit did at Lympstone (though it might have changed). It's a Police matter it's the police's bag and the Police have got much better at and built up their capability. CQB is a definite Military Skill, but US SWAT teams and HRT, RAID & GSG9 show Police are more than capable. CO-19, CO-13 etc are definitely capable units.
It has become a "We are more elite than you", when really it's about "We are more suited to the task despite jurisdictional issues".
Civil Nuclear Police in the UK are pretty good operators, you'll see that if you end up RNDA Caulport behind the wire at Faslane.
OT did you listen to the French Chief and notice anything, especially regarding the facts released to the media?
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with for all his mandate...Welcome to France...
