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The warp has always been. Since creation there has been the warp to parallel reality as we know it. Chaos is the effect of negative emotions or actions in reality on the warp so might as well have also always been. Choas does not equal the warp but the warp equals chaos. Chaos in past fluff has dominated the warp since the war in heaven and the Old Ones lost control of it because of enslavers and the war with the C'tan. The Emperor is an example of POSITIVE presence in the warp defying chaos and the manifestation known as the chaos gods. This could possibly lead to there being other positive gods if balance in the warp tips enough in the emperor’s favor. But in the big picture of 40k things would have to be ALOT less grimdark in reality for that to happen. Discuss.

Laughing God wrote:The warp has always been. Since creation there has been the warp to parallel reality as we know it. Chaos is the effect of negative emotions or actions in reality on the warp so might as well have also always been. Choas does not equal the warp but the warp equals chaos. Chaos in past fluff has dominated the warp since the war in heaven and the Old Ones lost control of it because of enslavers and the war with the C'tan. The Emperor is an example of POSITIVE presence in the warp defying chaos and the manifestation known as the chaos gods. This could possibly lead to there being other positive gods if balance in the warp tips enough in the emperor’s favor. But in the big picture of 40k things would have to be ALOT less grimdark in reality for that to happen. Discuss.

Chaos isn't only formed by negative emotions...there are positive aspects to it as well, its just that they aren't as defined due to the current psychological atmosphere.

-Khorne represents martial honor

-Slaanesh is about appreciation of the arts

-Tzeentch represents optimism

-Nurgle represents survival and the will to live

Also, sorry but the whole thing with the enslavers have been retconned. I think your argument is a bit out of date.

CthulusSpy hit the nail on the head there.

The Chaos gods aren't evil at all, they are simply chaos, a lack of order.

Laughing God wrote:Discuss.

No. I refuse.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Laughing God wrote:The warp has always been. Since creation there has been the warp to parallel reality as we know it. Chaos is the effect of negative emotions or actions in reality on the warp so might as well have also always been. Choas does not equal the warp but the warp equals chaos. Chaos in past fluff has dominated the warp since the war in heaven and the Old Ones lost control of it because of enslavers and the war with the C'tan. The Emperor is an example of POSITIVE presence in the warp defying chaos and the manifestation known as the chaos gods. This could possibly lead to there being other positive gods if balance in the warp tips enough in the emperor’s favor. But in the big picture of 40k things would have to be ALOT less grimdark in reality for that to happen. Discuss.

Chaos isn't only formed by negative emotions...there are positive aspects to it as well, its just that they aren't as defined due to the current psychological atmosphere.

-Khorne represents martial honor

-Slaanesh is about appreciation of the arts

-Tzeentch represents optimism

-Nurgle represents survival and the will to live

Also, sorry but the whole thing with the enslavers have been retconned. I think your argument is a bit out of date.

Now THAT is some Chaos propaganda! Chaos takes those things you mentioned and either bastardizes them or makes a mockery of them to serve their own purposes.

HAte to say it, but this kind of thread has happened before. Cthulu Spy, you did get it spot on, but Deadly Squirrel, I don't quite agree. I think the Chaos Gods are more embodiements of everything started, but because so many of the points are negative, that is reflected in their evil.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
The Chaos gods aren't evil at all, they are simply chaos, a lack of order.

I see... and making our galaxy into hellhole and killing every creature to feast on his soul, flesh and in the meantime break their backs and skinning them alive is not evil at all.....

In that case I to want to be killed in the most horrific way possible and that my soul be tortured for all eternity by four mentally unstable powerful daemons. Who is with me?

Brother Coa wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:
The Chaos gods aren't evil at all, they are simply chaos, a lack of order.

I see... and making our galaxy into hellhole and killing every creature to feast on his soul, flesh and in the meantime break their backs and skinning them alive is not evil at all.....

In that case I to want to be killed in the most horrific way possible and that my soul be tortured for all eternity by four mentally unstable powerful daemons. Who is with me?

I bolded what was incorrect. The chaos gods do not want to kill everyone, they want to convert everyone. If they killed everyone there would be no souls or emotions to feed them, and over time they will whittle away into nothingness. What they do want is for everyone to serve them, so that they will have a constant stream of belief to feed off of.

I get it, they will kill some and let the rest live in torments of pain just so that they can make more of them and use them as food.

That is stil lnot defying them as "good".

There are also supposedly "good" entities in the warp, besides anything the Emperor supposedly tasks out. They just never get talked about as benevolent beings that might take the form of "saints" or racial "gods" aren't exactly "grimdark" enough.

I refuse to see the Warp as this hell-dimension. It's simply bad for "realspace" because the rules that govern it play hell with reality, and the smaller entities are fueled by their instincts to feed on mortals. Lesser daemons are actually more like predatory animals with no rules and no real "intelligence/empathy" to make them play nice.

Plus, most races that can touch the warp always take the easy route, which the "evil" entities latch onto for easier access.

I think it would be a cool story twist is all the stories of "battlefield miracles" and saints appearing weren't the hand of the Emperor all the time, but some sort of warp entity. This would explain why it could happen to other races than humans.

Good and evil are subjective. Chaos is chaos, neither good nor evil. It simply is.

That, and the fact that if Chaos is evil, then by extension all sentient life would also be evil, since Chaos is derived from the psyche of sentient lifeforms.

Actually, that's fairly grimdark...

DeadlySquirrel wrote:CthulusSpy hit the nail on the head there.

The Chaos gods aren't evil at all, they are simply chaos, a lack of order.

I don't buy this argument. What they do, are, and represent fits evil in every way possible.

Morality is subjective.

Khorne isn't just MAIM KILL BURN!
Tzeentch isn't just JUST AS PLANNED!
Slaanesh isn't just SEX AND DRUGS AND ROCK 'N' ROLL!
Nurgle isn't just BUBOES, BOILS AND POX!

Khorne has traits such as nobility, honour, courage and bravery that aren't grimdark enough for the World Eaters.
Tzeentch has facets of the pursuit of knowledge and how life changes.
Slaanesh is about self indulgence which - isn't a bad thing. It's just his/her/it's followers take it to an extreme.
Nurgle is also about endurance and the will to survive.

The Gods aren't evil. Their followers are. Even then, good and evil is subjective and different in the eyes of others. I'm sure they are convinced that what they're doing is the right thing.

Harriticus wrote:I don't buy this argument. What they do, are, and represent fits evil in every way possible.

It represents your view of evil as defined by 21st century human morality and culture.

The Eldar would sacrifice millions of humans if one or two Eldar might live. In their mindset, this isn't evil, it's good. But in a modern-day mindset, this would be evil.

Chaos disfigures, warps and mutates it's own followers as GIFTS. The people favoured by the gods get just as 'evilly' mutated, and the gods and their followers consider this a 'good' thing.

Morality, and the line between good and evil, are completely subjective constructions. It's one of the main themes of 40k.

This subject has been discussed before, To me it is simple in that the primary four chaos gods are evil and the stuff associate with big bad demon gods.
In the background they don't show any positive aspects and trying to change everything that is written about them.

The idea of good in the warp is usually neglected because of the idea not fitting in with the grimdark idea. But there have been a few warp entities not linked to the chaos gods portrayed in the background but they are not expanded upon.
For example the Sanguinor and the Doom Legion.

Brother Ramses wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Laughing God wrote:The warp has always been. Since creation there has been the warp to parallel reality as we know it. Chaos is the effect of negative emotions or actions in reality on the warp so might as well have also always been. Choas does not equal the warp but the warp equals chaos. Chaos in past fluff has dominated the warp since the war in heaven and the Old Ones lost control of it because of enslavers and the war with the C'tan. The Emperor is an example of POSITIVE presence in the warp defying chaos and the manifestation known as the chaos gods. This could possibly lead to there being other positive gods if balance in the warp tips enough in the emperor’s favor. But in the big picture of 40k things would have to be ALOT less grimdark in reality for that to happen. Discuss.

Chaos isn't only formed by negative emotions...there are positive aspects to it as well, its just that they aren't as defined due to the current psychological atmosphere.

-Khorne represents martial honor

-Slaanesh is about appreciation of the arts

-Tzeentch represents optimism

-Nurgle represents survival and the will to live

Also, sorry but the whole thing with the enslavers have been retconned. I think your argument is a bit out of date.

Now THAT is some Chaos propaganda! Chaos takes those things you mentioned and either bastardizes them or makes a mockery of them to serve their own purposes.

Wrong actually. The gods are how they are because of the emotions of mortals. If the beings feeding emotion into the Warp weren't already twisted, the gods wouldn't be either. For example, to start with, Slaanesh would have been fed by the Eldar turning more and more towards the finer things in life, and could have turned out pretty nice. But then the Eldar went berserk and Slaanesh ended up with decadence and selfishness more than anything else. If the galaxy were more positive, the gods would be as well. Which is one of the reasons I have for doubting Ynnead. The Eldar created one god and it didn't turn out so well for them, who's to say this one will be any better. If they become obsessed with death to create him, he'll probably just try to nuke the galaxy.

Anyway, I'd be reluctant to class the Emperor as positive as well. He was a selfish amoral jerk who didn't really give a damn about anything besides what he wanted.

On topic though, since the gods already encompass most positive emotions, they;d just become nicer if the universe became a happier place.

Harriticus wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:CthulusSpy hit the nail on the head there.

The Chaos gods aren't evil at all, they are simply chaos, a lack of order.

I don't buy this argument. What they do, are, and represent fits evil in every way possible.

Really? What have they done that humanity hasn't done of its own accord? The Warp is a mirror of real space. The gods are its reflection of us.

It's always funny when people argue about the 'existence' of evil in the context of 40k.

If the concept has no meaning to you, then obviously nothing is 'evil'. And these 'positive' attributes of the Chaos powers, to my understanding, have pretty much never been demonstrated in any canon. The Chaos powers represent, as mentioned before, a bastardization of those things, instead.

Ronin-Sage wrote:It's always funny when people argue about the 'existence' of evil in the context of 40k.

If the concept has no meaning to you, then obviously nothing is 'evil'. And these 'positive' attributes of the Chaos powers, to my understanding, have pretty much never been demonstrated in any canon. The Chaos powers represent, as mentioned before, a bastardization of those things, instead.

There's not that much mention of positive aspects on the Imperial side either, and the fluff is from their point of view.

Any good in the gods is muted and weak because of the much larger amount of evil coming in from the mortals that feed them. And it has been stated in the fluff many times that the gods don't understand mortals well enough to even tell what gifts a champion would deem beneficial, or even what ones wouldn't cripple them. How could they possibly show emotion of any kind in a way that we could understand?

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Good and evil are subjective. Chaos is chaos, neither good nor evil. It simply is.

No, in 21st century secular America good and evil are subjective. In the 41st millenium evil is objective. It could burst out of the skull of your closest friends and relatives, kill everyone in sight, then turn your planet into a raging inferno of death and destruction, after which your soul will be tormented forever. In 40k evil is real. It's objective. That's why it's so grimdark. The warp is evil because it's a reflection of what goes on inside of people's heads, which is mostly evil most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The whole background of 40k is basically christian mythology. The Emperor = God, the chaos Gods and/or Horus = Satan, the Eye of Terror = Hell, the Primarchs = Archangels and Archdemons, the space marines = Angels and Demons. In that mythology evil is real. Hence in 40k it is too.

GreatGunz wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Good and evil are subjective. Chaos is chaos, neither good nor evil. It simply is.

No, in 21st century secular America good and evil are subjective. In the 41st millenium evil is objective. It could burst out of the skull of your closest friends and relatives, kill everyone in sight, then turn your planet into a raging inferno of death and destruction, after which your soul will be tormented forever. In 40k evil is real. It's objective. That's why it's so grimdark. The warp is evil because it's a reflection of what goes on inside of people's heads, which is mostly evil most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The whole background of 40k is basically christian mythology. The Emperor = God, the chaos Gods and/or Horus = Satan, the Eye of Terror = Hell, the Primarchs = Archangels and Archdemons, the space marines = Angels and Demons. In that mythology evil is real. Hence in 40k it is too.

Fairly loaded statements, there.

To define the factions in 40k as 'good, bad or evil' is so narrow-minded a view that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Every faction, every race, all of them, are shades of grey. They all have what we would define as good/bad elements.

The Warp reflects many elements of human psychology and not all of it is 'bad'. In fact quite a lot of it could be considered to be good. As an example I shall use my favourite, Slaanesh. A lot of people seem to think that Slaanesh is all about sex, rape, drugs and thats it. Slaanesh embodies far, far more than that. Covers appreciation & enjoyment of fine foods, drinks & other culinary or tasted items (such as smoking the finest dried & rolled leaves - most likely a classier lho-stick), searching for the perfect taste that is greater than the one preceeding. Art, architecture, textiles & sartorial elements all come under Slaanesh as they can all excite the senses and feed the emotions that come under Slaanesh's 'area'. Perfection is key to Slaanesh as his/her/its followers are eternally seeking the most perfect sensation, the most divine way to sate the senses as nothing less will do.

So with that how can you describe Slaanesh as evil? We all enjoy drinking tasty liquids, eating tasty foods, enjoy the skill of artists, architects, tailors, artisans. We seek to be the best at what we do, to 'perfect' ourselves in what we enjoy. In effect Slaanesh is a God we -all- tip our heads to, but without realising it.

Sparks_Havelock wrote:To define the factions in 40k as 'good, bad or evil' is so narrow-minded a view that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Every faction, every race, all of them, are shades of grey. They all have what we would define as good/bad elements.

The Warp reflects many elements of human psychology and not all of it is 'bad'. In fact quite a lot of it could be considered to be good. As an example I shall use my favourite, Slaanesh. A lot of people seem to think that Slaanesh is all about sex, rape, drugs and thats it. Slaanesh embodies far, far more than that. Covers appreciation & enjoyment of fine foods, drinks & other culinary or tasted items (such as smoking the finest dried & rolled leaves - most likely a classier lho-stick), searching for the perfect taste that is greater than the one preceeding. Art, architecture, textiles & sartorial elements all come under Slaanesh as they can all excite the senses and feed the emotions that come under Slaanesh's 'area'. Perfection is key to Slaanesh as his/her/its followers are eternally seeking the most perfect sensation, the most divine way to sate the senses as nothing less will do.

So with that how can you describe Slaanesh as evil? We all enjoy drinking tasty liquids, eating tasty foods, enjoy the skill of artists, architects, tailors, artisans. We seek to be the best at what we do, to 'perfect' ourselves in what we enjoy. In effect Slaanesh is a God we -all- tip our heads to, but without realising it.

Except Slaanesh, along with Chaos powers, takes those otherwise 'okay' things and perverts them to the extreme. You're no longer just enjoying a 'classy lho-stick' anymore, you're take the most extreme drugs possible, no matter the bodily or psychological consequences. You're not just seeking be an expert in many things, you're a slave to perfection.

That's what Chaos is basically about -- slavery to desires of violence, lust, etc.

Well, to be fair, the blokes who created him were a bit messed up to begin with.

Ronin-Sage wrote:

Sparks_Havelock wrote:To define the factions in 40k as 'good, bad or evil' is so narrow-minded a view that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Every faction, every race, all of them, are shades of grey. They all have what we would define as good/bad elements.

The Warp reflects many elements of human psychology and not all of it is 'bad'. In fact quite a lot of it could be considered to be good. As an example I shall use my favourite, Slaanesh. A lot of people seem to think that Slaanesh is all about sex, rape, drugs and thats it. Slaanesh embodies far, far more than that. Covers appreciation & enjoyment of fine foods, drinks & other culinary or tasted items (such as smoking the finest dried & rolled leaves - most likely a classier lho-stick), searching for the perfect taste that is greater than the one preceeding. Art, architecture, textiles & sartorial elements all come under Slaanesh as they can all excite the senses and feed the emotions that come under Slaanesh's 'area'. Perfection is key to Slaanesh as his/her/its followers are eternally seeking the most perfect sensation, the most divine way to sate the senses as nothing less will do.

So with that how can you describe Slaanesh as evil? We all enjoy drinking tasty liquids, eating tasty foods, enjoy the skill of artists, architects, tailors, artisans. We seek to be the best at what we do, to 'perfect' ourselves in what we enjoy. In effect Slaanesh is a God we -all- tip our heads to, but without realising it.

Except Slaanesh, along with Chaos powers, takes those otherwise 'okay' things and perverts them to the extreme. You're no longer just enjoying a 'classy lho-stick' anymore, you're take the most extreme drugs possible, no matter the bodily or psychological consequences. You're not just seeking be an expert in many things, you're a slave to perfection.

That's what Chaos is basically about -- slavery to desires of violence, lust, etc.

The gods don't pervert anything. They have no concept of one thing being more extreme than another, because they are immune to the consequences, and simply see a natural progression. Once you have discovered a thrill, Slaanesh considers it natural to make the most of it, because that's what the Eldar did. Likewise, battle and anger are far more prevalent than honour, so why shouldn't Khorne think that they're more important? Morality isn't something that's very important to them, because there's no reason it should be. Morality is only relevant when you consider others to be important enough to care about, and the mortal races are far to small for the gods to care about at all, apart from preferring it when they worship them actively.

Ronin-Sage wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Good and evil are subjective. Chaos is chaos, neither good nor evil. It simply is.

No, in 21st century secular America good and evil are subjective. In the 41st millenium evil is objective. It could burst out of the skull of your closest friends and relatives, kill everyone in sight, then turn your planet into a raging inferno of death and destruction, after which your soul will be tormented forever. In 40k evil is real. It's objective. That's why it's so grimdark. The warp is evil because it's a reflection of what goes on inside of people's heads, which is mostly evil most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The whole background of 40k is basically christian mythology. The Emperor = God, the chaos Gods and/or Horus = Satan, the Eye of Terror = Hell, the Primarchs = Archangels and Archdemons, the space marines = Angels and Demons. In that mythology evil is real. Hence in 40k it is too.

Fairly loaded statements, there.

They've come out and said it in the fluff many times. The warp is bad because people are bad. Look it's the middle ages in space. Have to put yourself in the medi eval mind set to appreciate it.

GreatGunz wrote:

Ronin-Sage wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:Good and evil are subjective. Chaos is chaos, neither good nor evil. It simply is.

No, in 21st century secular America good and evil are subjective. In the 41st millenium evil is objective. It could burst out of the skull of your closest friends and relatives, kill everyone in sight, then turn your planet into a raging inferno of death and destruction, after which your soul will be tormented forever. In 40k evil is real. It's objective. That's why it's so grimdark. The warp is evil because it's a reflection of what goes on inside of people's heads, which is mostly evil most of the time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The whole background of 40k is basically christian mythology. The Emperor = God, the chaos Gods and/or Horus = Satan, the Eye of Terror = Hell, the Primarchs = Archangels and Archdemons, the space marines = Angels and Demons. In that mythology evil is real. Hence in 40k it is too.

Fairly loaded statements, there.

They've come out and said it in the fluff many times. The warp is bad because people are bad. Look it's the middle ages in space. Have to put yourself in the medi eval mind set to appreciate it.

I was actually referring to "In that mythology evil is real" -- should have quoted just that.

Oh. Well that's how it's always seemed to me. Maybe someone else has a different pov.