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Hello.

Well I´m Back. I have another tournament next weekend. 3k points. Problem is I don't have models for the list I want with 6 fiends, so I have the following 2 options which are actually quite similar.

List 1

Kairos.

The mask/ Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.
HoK, AoK, fire blade, Juggernaut

38 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
5 furies.

4 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend
5 Bloodcrushers, stander bearer, music.

2992 points total.


List 2

Kairos

The mask/ Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.
HoN, burgle staff (the one with the bound spell)

39 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
19 Plaguebearers, full command, re-roll to wound icon.
5 furies.

4 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend.
1 Fiend
1 Fiend
------------------------------------------------------------------------

It´s meant to be a hard tournament. It is like Hard Boyz qualifiers for my country.

First of all on both list same doubt, Blue scribes or the Masque? I think both give me some tactical advance over my opponent.

The Masque: could let me make a hard unit slow, hunt war machines (it is great at this) reduce Ld where kairos can also take the shadows spell and we have a nice Ld Bomb, hunt light cavalries, support units...

The Blue Scribes: easy, the extra dice for kairos. At 3k I guess people will bring magic, and having extra dice can always save the day, pretty sure VC will be around with plenty of IoN castings, .......

Now about the first list I think is more aggressive, you have to deal with the bloodcrushers coming at you , as well ad the bloodletters, and the daemonetes can hurts with Okamis Mindrazor, or just +1 to wound from fire or +1 S/ +1 T from beasts.

Second list is less aggressive but more resilient. It has fiends which can be used to protect Kairos (Am I right in this statement? If I place it in front of Kairos and he shoots a cannon at me and hits him, he may as well stop the cannonball), it has more chaff, It has a nasty combo, the staff with kairos dropping D3 some unit T can be a nice surprise right?

So, which one would you guys go with, and would you make any changes?

The only models I own I could add are 10 flesh hounds, 20 horrors, 3 screamers, and some nursling bases.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
List 3

Kairos

The masque
Blue scribes.

HoK, obsidian armor, BSB, -2 Ld Icon
HoS, siren song, torment blade.
HoT, spell breaker, MoS.


39 Bloodletters, full command, endless war icon.
23 Daemonettes, full command.
5 furies.

5 Flesh Hounds
5 Flesh Hounds

4 flamers.
5 flamers.
1 Fiend.
1 Fiend

So this new list is taking into account some consideration.

I have removed 1 fiends, the plaguebearer unit, and the HoN.

On the other hand I have added, 2x 5 Flesh hounds, the blue scribes (I still think that if you go with kairos you really need the dice, and the banner of despair) the -2 LD, with the -1D3 of the masque can come in quite handy against units who would be steadfast against the flesh hounds or daemonettes, or against fear checks.

I'd go list 3, if you're playing it as a CC denial type list.
From the looks of list 3; you should be able to bomb the opposing army with magic, and run the flesh hounds/flamers in to mop up any survivors.

The only thing I'd change is giving the HoTz power vortex so he adds one more die to the pool. You can still just hide the HoTz, and MoS isn't needed since Kiros will be eating up all your dice.
If you wanted a bunker unit for your HoTz, you could drop some bloodletters, as you never really want to be in CC with this army.

Why not use the flesh hounds and flamers with kairos spells to get rid of annoying stuff and at the same time have a strong centre with the bloodletters and daemonettes?

Points; you need more than your opponent to win the game.
And at 3k, your main blocks are very small, also few and far between. 40 B'letters looks like a lot, but they can be punked in 1 magic phase, or be rendered worthless by getting in CC with a buffed up unit, or eating some LoShadow.
23 Demonettes are not even that big for 2500, so they will perform a little worse at 3k when you'll see 3-6 blocks of 50+ slaves/goblins/orcs/halberdiers/dwarfs/marauders/spearmen/etc.
Though the HoSh with Siren Song can help you get into a CC on your terms, and I think that benefits the engagement denial tactic nicely.
So in short: 2 infantry units totaling 62 models is not a strong center at 3k.
Another reason is Kiros is like 675 points, and he will need to make those points back in order for you to win the game. It's a lot more viable tactic to crush those big blocks of infantry with all the best spells in the game coming from Kiros, then send in your chaff to mop up, rather than use the guy your army is devoted to, clearing out your opponents chaff.
If you had access to more minis, I'd suggest a total engagement denial list. It's a very hard list to play, but it can still do well in a lot of cases.

Good things you have going for you:
You can’t run forever, so you might as well fight who you want to. Remember; there are no half points for units. You have to wipe them out completely to get any points. Use the Siren Song to fight some chaff that has a small change of wiping your “Nettes, and just hold out to keep your opponent from picking up the points from your unit.
Same thing for your Flesh hounds, and flamers; once they take some losses, you can either hide them, or set them up to bait your opponent into letting your other units get favorable positions.
Kiros is a beast, and can easily wreck entire units in the magic phase, making them easy pickings for your chaff. He can also buff up your guys when needed in order to win some otherwise tight CC’s.

sigh; edit for spelling. x3

I have played plenty with kairos. I even won my countri´s ToS wit a 2,5k list with him.

Kairos is good, but not so much to kill whole units in one turn, Imagine some orc, 50 just as you said. I may cast lurkers, that would take 50%, that is 25, of the unit out, but I have to be close (12") if I don´t want to waste too many dices. Then how do you take care of the other 25", I can cast the D3+1 or the steal spell, but still, Wont take care of that many units per turn, you allways need to take care of at least one big unit with the letters.

You don´t have to kill 625 points that Kairos costs, remember, you just said it, point denial, if kairos survives, if he has killed 300 points, thats more than enough. He has not given any points away, and taken 300, if everything in the army has to make their points back, the we will allways have wipe outs on one of the armies.

On the other hand I quite like your playing idea. Probably will start practicing it on friendly games to take it to a tourney one day, but without having practiced it, even though one of my armies is WE and I can play that tactic well, going to a hard boys without experience on a game type is risky

Would you make changes for a CC denial type list? I mean if we are going denial is it worth a 40 big unit of letters?

Congrats on the Tourney win man.

Kiros won't totally kill one unit per turn, but he will bring them down to manageable levels.
With the Orc example: You could drop Dwellers, and remove half the unit, then fire the flammers into the survivors, taking out another 7-10. Next turn charge in with the Flesh Hounds, and that's the unit.
Yes, it's a lot of coordination, but there's not a lot the opponent can do to stop it from happening. It's hard to outrun the Flammers/Flesh Hounds.
The process kinda cascades; as Kiros cripples one unit, the Flammer are shooting into another, and the Flesh Hounds are prepping for a Charge to finish off what's left.
If Kiros drops Purple Sun instead; you're still dropping 20ish Orcs, but you are also generating more dice. So it's the same process, but you should suck up enough PD with the Sun to drop Dwellers/Boon/Firestorm.

Don't worry too much about wasting PD with Kiros, as you have plenty of ways to get more. By taking multiple small Horror units, you stand a very good chance of Channeling 1-2, Blue Scribes are good for free dice, Power Vortex on a pair of TzHeralds, plus Boon, and Lore of Death can all net you a ton of dice a turn.

40 Bloodletters does for your opponent the same thing their big units are doing for you; a big target.
Most units in WHFB now days are pretty big, so it means lots of shooting coming from one unit to another, and such. By forcing the opponent to over commit his resources to taking our your smaller units, you are gaining VP advantage even for trading units one for one.
Just as one spell from you can wreck 50 Orcs, the same can be done to your Bloodletters. The O&G vortex can be cast to force Toughness test, so your Bloodletters are toast.
By making the Orc player cast the same spell on 10 Horrors, that you don't care about loseing anyways, he basically wasted his PD.

The reason Kiros has to make the points in this type of army is that nothing else will. Your small units are there purely to support the damage done by Kiros.

Yeah, it would be very risky at Hard Boyz to take any kind of engagement denial list.

If I were going to go full denial, then I'd drop the Fiends for more Flammers, and minimum core in Horrors, plus a unit of Furies or 2.
After that comes the Lords/Heroes, which could be Kiros, and 2-3 HoTz with power Vortex.
The remaining points are used to max out the Special section; filling it up with Flesh Hounds, and possibly screamers.

A solid unit of Bloodletters could be worth it, but its a big target for the opponent, and a lot of points to catch up on if they catch a round of poor CC and pop. Plus it's a unit without Herald support, as we need the Tz ones to feed Kiros.

Apologies if I didn’t answer your questions, or left something out; I typed in a hurry trying not to be late for work.

i was under the immpression that if your take boon of tzeentch that only the herald that has that ability can use that dice. Am I incorrect in this??

cricketofdeth wrote: Congrats on the Tourney win man.

Kiros won't totally kill one unit per turn, but he will bring them down to manageable levels.
With the Orc example: You could drop Dwellers, and remove half the unit, then fire the flammers into the survivors, taking out another 7-10. Next turn charge in with the Flesh Hounds, and that's the unit.
Yes, it's a lot of coordination, but there's not a lot the opponent can do to stop it from happening. It's hard to outrun the Flammers/Flesh Hounds.
The process kinda cascades; as Kiros cripples one unit, the Flammer are shooting into another, and the Flesh Hounds are prepping for a Charge to finish off what's left.
If Kiros drops Purple Sun instead; you're still dropping 20ish Orcs, but you are also generating more dice. So it's the same process, but you should suck up enough PD with the Sun to drop Dwellers/Boon/Firestorm.

Don't worry too much about wasting PD with Kiros, as you have plenty of ways to get more. By taking multiple small Horror units, you stand a very good chance of Channeling 1-2, Blue Scribes are good for free dice, Power Vortex on a pair of TzHeralds, plus Boon, and Lore of Death can all net you a ton of dice a turn.

40 Bloodletters does for your opponent the same thing their big units are doing for you; a big target.
Most units in WHFB now days are pretty big, so it means lots of shooting coming from one unit to another, and such. By forcing the opponent to over commit his resources to taking our your smaller units, you are gaining VP advantage even for trading units one for one.
Just as one spell from you can wreck 50 Orcs, the same can be done to your Bloodletters. The O&G vortex can be cast to force Toughness test, so your Bloodletters are toast.
By making the Orc player cast the same spell on 10 Horrors, that you don't care about loseing anyways, he basically wasted his PD.

The reason Kiros has to make the points in this type of army is that nothing else will. Your small units are there purely to support the damage done by Kiros.

Yeah, it would be very risky at Hard Boyz to take any kind of engagement denial list.

If I were going to go full denial, then I'd drop the Fiends for more Flammers, and minimum core in Horrors, plus a unit of Furies or 2.
After that comes the Lords/Heroes, which could be Kiros, and 2-3 HoTz with power Vortex.
The remaining points are used to max out the Special section; filling it up with Flesh Hounds, and possibly screamers.

A solid unit of Bloodletters could be worth it, but its a big target for the opponent, and a lot of points to catch up on if they catch a round of poor CC and pop. Plus it's a unit without Herald support, as we need the Tz ones to feed Kiros.

Apologies if I didn’t answer your questions, or left something out; I typed in a hurry trying not to be late for work.

Bloodletters wouldn't be toast vs the O&G spell they would still recieve a ward save since it causes wounds instead of removals, and get their MR.

I'm happy you feel that way.
But you will still fail 2/3's of the saves.
If every bloodletter is hit with the template you’re looking 26.6 hits from failed T tests, and failing 2/3’s the saves, taking around 17 casualties.
Leaving the OP’s single b’letter unit 23 strong. Not what I would call a CC effective unit in 8th.
I think you took my comment out of context to begin with though. I didn't mean the whole unit would be wiped out in one casting of the spell, but rather one casting stands a very good chance of making the bloodletters combat ineffective.
Now if the OP was taking 3 units of 35-40 bloodletters/demonettes, then things would be a bit different, and I wouldn’t suggest going from a more standard DoC list to a combat denial army, but since that was kinda the way the OP was headed, I based my comments in helping him get there.
And no MR, as MR only effects magical missiles.


edit: curse you spell check!