Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

2 Questions

1. Lukas the Tricksters "Last Laugh" ability removes models from play, but in the Space Wolves FAQ it says that Necrons can still attempt a Reannimation Protocol roll after this. JotWW also removes from play, so thinking along the same lines, shouldn't you get a Reannimation Protocol roll after this as well?

2. Also in the Space Wolves FAQ, it says that first model hit by JotWW is considered to be its target. The wording for Gloom Prism says that any time a Necron unit within 3' is targeted by a psychic power, the Gloom Prism may be used to attempt to nullify it. So, does this mean Gloom Prism could be used to nullify JotWW?

In response to #1, theres a whole thread about it here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/436833.page

The bottom line is, some people still claim there is a difference between "removed from play" and "removed from play as a casualty". However the BRB does not define any difference so I believe there is no difference.

#2 that sounds correct to me. The gloom prism can nullify JotWW. I don't know of any reason it wouldn't.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:2 Questions
1. Lukas the Tricksters "Last Laugh" ability removes models from play, but in the Space Wolves FAQ it says that Necrons can still attempt a Reannimation Protocol roll after this. JotWW also removes from play, so thinking along the same lines, shouldn't you get a Reannimation Protocol roll after this as well?

"Last Laugh" removes models from play as casualties. JoTTWW removes models from play. Completely different wordings.
So "Last Laugh" FAQ ruling is not precedent for JoTWW.
There's huge thread about the question in YMDC already, I'd advise to check it out.

TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
2. Also in the Space Wolves FAQ, it says that first model hit by JotWW is considered to be its target. The wording for Gloom Prism says that any time a Necron unit within 3' is targeted by a psychic power, the Gloom Prism may be used to attempt to nullify it. So, does this mean Gloom Prism could be used to nullify JotWW?

Yes.

There is definitely a debate in this forum. Some believe that remove from play is totally different from remove as casualties, some believe they are exactly the same. So actually there is no true/false answer.

Since you ask for opinions, only 1 opponent that I have faced had objections on me rolling RP/EL after jotww. I pointed him out the SoB FAQ about St Celestine. She has a similar ability that triggers when she is removed as a casualty and it has been faqed to work against remove from play effects. My opponent agreed that being similar abilities both should be handled the same, and the game went on...

1. Last Laugh specifically removes from play as casualties, which is allowed by RP/EL. JotWW removes from play. This is not only a distinct difference in wording, but the BRB defines what determines being removed as a casualty constitutes on page 24 of the BRB. This defined process is what is needed for RP/EL to work.

2. Discuss with your opponent. A target for JotWW is not determined until after a model is already affected. Hence when you try and determine if a model within 3" of a Gloom Prison has been targeted by a psychic power, said model has already been hit and affected by JotWW.

Brother Ramses wrote:1. Last Laugh specifically removes from play as casualties, which is allowed by RP/EL. JotWW removes from play. This is not only a distinct difference in wording, but the BRB defines what determines being removed as a casualty constitutes on page 24 of the BRB. This defined process is what is needed for RP/EL to work.

2. Discuss with your opponent. A target for JotWW is not determined until after a model is already affected. Hence when you try and determine if a model within 3" of a Gloom Prison has been targeted by a psychic power, said model has already been hit and affected by JotWW.

I agree with your answer to number 1 Brother Ramses, but number 2.

The Space Wolves FAQ that says the first model is the target is referring to having Line of Sight to use the power on that unit in the first place. So, I beleive that model is targeted before he is affected, as you need check line of sight(and therefore choose a target) before you actually lay down that 24' line.

Read the rule and the FAQ.

The first model the line will affect is treated as the target model. How can you determine the first model the line will affect unless you take the psychic test and place the line?

If it requires line of sight, how can he not check for line of sight before taking the test, and placing the line?

Besides, the Gloom Prism just nullifies when a Necron is affected by the psychic power. It doesn't say before or after the power hits.

Brother Ramses wrote:Read the rule and the FAQ.

The first model the line will affect is treated as the target model. How can you determine the first model the line will affect unless you take the psychic test and place the line?

it doesn't matter when the line is placed.

If you place the line, then roll to hit and miss - no models are effected.

If you place the line, roll to hit, you hit, and then gloom prism nullifies the power - no models are effected.

As I said, read the rule and the FAQ.

You do not check for LoS with JotWW until the first model that is affected by the power is determined to be the target.

You do not roll to hit with JotWW.

I get the feeling we could go back and forth all day Brother Ramses, so remembering 'the most important rule' I think I will just side with the majority on this one and call it a day.

@Brother Ramses I thought your opinion was that gloom prism works against jotww. Did you have a change of heart?

Brother Ramses wrote:As I said, read the rule and the FAQ.

You do not check for LoS with JotWW until the first model that is affected by the power is determined to be the target.

You do not roll to hit with JotWW.

From the latest FAQ:

Q: Do psychic shooting attacks need to roll To Hit?
(p50)
A: Yes.

Someone tell me if I'm wrong - I don't have the book in front of me, is JotWW a psychic shooting attack?

There is a faq specifically for jotww. It doesn't roll to hit.

copper.talos wrote:There is a faq specifically for jotww. It doesn't roll to hit.

Wow. This would have been helpful in that other huge thread on the subject:

Q: Do you need to roll To Hit with Jaws of the World
Wolf? (p37)
A: No.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Necron Codex gloom prism:

"Each time an Enemy unit attempts to target the Canopetk Spider or a friendly unit within 3"...with a psychic power... On a 4+ the power is nullified and has no effect"

Regardless of where in the timing of rolling or placing a line with JotWW -
1) Is the unit within 3" targeted by JotWW? Yes.
2) On a 4+ it has no effect.

I agree. But I still want to hear Brother Ramses opinion on this.

copper.talos wrote:I agree. But I still want to hear Brother Ramses opinion on this.

By RAW it doesn't because JotWW uses an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, in this specific case with targetting, that falls outside of the rules for Gloom Prism. Last time it was discussed here, I said the same thing with the caveat being that I could see how it was intended to be one of the Necrons only psychic defense so would allow it by anyone I played against.

Brother Ramses wrote:

copper.talos wrote:I agree. But I still want to hear Brother Ramses opinion on this.

By RAW it doesn't because JotWW uses an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, in this specific case with targetting, that falls outside of the rules for Gloom Prism. Last time it was discussed here, I said the same thing with the caveat being that I could see how it was intended to be one of the Necrons only psychic defense so would allow it by anyone I played against.

Even though the rules of JotWW are different than a normal psychic shooting attack it still refers to "targetting" the enemy at some point. The Gloom Prism refers to a necron unit or model that has been "targeted". Can you explain better how it falls outside the rules of Gloom Prism?

So you would allow gloom prism to nullify JotWW, as most of us would. I don't see the reason then you arguing against it.

One also has to take into account, that by RAW, Grey Knight Aegis special rule does nothing.
Aegis gives -1 to LD for Psychic test if the target is a GK Unit with Aegis in it, but psychic powers make the test first and after that choose target. But nobody actually plays it this way, instead it is played like this:
1) Opposing player says he is using Psychic power and chooses target
2) Opposing player makes psychic test.

I do agree that technically, JoTWW must hit target before you can make the Gloom prism roll. But hitting happens before the Initiative test is rolled, and I believe that Gloom prism can interrupt the JoTTW before the model is removed.
(JoTTW considers the first model hit by the line to be powers target)

This is a pointless discussion really. Gloom prism nullifies any psychic ability that targets units. Trying to abuse a quirk in the mechanism of JotWW to negate the gloom prism's ability against it, is rules lawyering at its worst.

copper.talos wrote:This is a pointless discussion really. Gloom prism nullifies any psychic ability that targets units. Trying to abuse a quirk in the mechanism of JotWW to negate the gloom prism's ability against it, is rules lawyering at its worst.

Rules lawyering or not, if there is a specific reason why Gloom Prism can be negated according to some interpretation of RAW, that's what we're here to discuss.

Even if you've rolled and are ready to pick models up, if the effect is negated it stops right there. I'm curious how any argument against GP can be formed using RAW.

copper.talos wrote:So you would allow gloom prism to nullify JotWW, as most of us would. I don't see the reason then you arguing against it.

First of all the OP asked for opinions in the thread title. Second of all, my first post said talk with your opponent about it specifically because of the reasons I gave.

This forum is about discussing the RAW of the game, which in this case, it is my opinion that the Gloom Prism does not work against JptWW because of the specific wording of Gloom Prism be applied against a psychic shooting attack that deviates from the general rules for psychic shooting attacks.

Honestly from the sounds of it, BR just really likes his SW's Cheese.

Honestly from the sounds of it, BR just really likes his SW's Cheese

How do you get that when he said this....

By RAW it doesn't because JotWW uses an exception to the general rules for psychic shooting attacks, in this specific case with targetting, that falls outside of the rules for Gloom Prism. Last time it was discussed here, I said the same thing with the caveat being that I could see how it was intended to be one of the Necrons only psychic defense so would allow it by anyone I played against

Its clear to me that he is arguing GW's inability to write rules that take into account all the variables that might apply. I would bet that in a friendly game he would more than allow Gloom to work on JotWW, and in a tournament, it wouldn't be up to him.

Well, it helps if you read more then the last box in the thread.

BR stated above because JotWW is some kinda super special psychic shooting attack, that resolves all of its damage/measuring/los after it already works and has affected all your troops. This would be like wounding models, then quickly rolling for the next group and saying "ohh sorry, you didn't roll fast enough for your saves T.S."

Then tries to back up this claim that because there is no * in gloom prism that says "OMG THIS WORKS ON JotWW", that it can do nothing about it.

"Gloom Prism: The Gloom Prism's energy field creates a zone shrouded from Warp-spawned power. Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek spyder, or a friendly unit within 3', with a psychic power, roll a d6 if the test is passed on a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect."

This says to me anyway:
1. Your using a P.P.? this begins your ATTEMPT, checking LOS, measuring, nominating the model its being aimed at, etc..Also part of ATTEMPTING
2. If the Psychic test is passed, I then roll to nullify it, not after it kills all my troops.
3. On a 4+ the JotWW turns into JotWPup and has no effect.

Lunchmonkey wrote:Well, it helps if you read more then the last box in the thread.

BR stated above because JotWW is some kinda super special psychic shooting attack, that resolves all of its damage/measuring/los after it already works and has affected all your troops. This would be like wounding models, then quickly rolling for the next group and saying "ohh sorry, you didn't roll fast enough for your saves T.S."

Then tries to back up this claim that because there is no * in gloom prism that says "OMG THIS WORKS ON JotWW", that it can do nothing about it.

"Gloom Prism: The Gloom Prism's energy field creates a zone shrouded from Warp-spawned power. Each time an enemy unit attempts to target the Canoptek spyder, or a friendly unit within 3', with a psychic power, roll a d6 if the test is passed on a 4+, the power is nullified and has no effect."

This says to me anyway:
1. Your using a P.P.? this begins your ATTEMPT, checking LOS, measuring, nominating the model its being aimed at, etc..Also part of ATTEMPTING
2. If the Psychic test is passed, I then roll to nullify it, not after it kills all my troops.
3. On a 4+ the JotWW turns into JotWPup and has no effect.

Considering that your breakdown has absolutely zero comparison to how JotWW actually works, maybe you should read the rule and FAQ regarding it. The rule is in the SW codex and the FAQ is on the GW website.

copper.talos wrote:This is a pointless discussion really. Gloom prism nullifies any psychic ability that targets units. Trying to abuse a quirk in the mechanism of JotWW to negate the gloom prism's ability against it, is rules lawyering at its worst.

Oh look, this guy showed up.

He always does.

I have a fan!

copper.talos wrote:I have a fan!

Hey, you do! LOL I was wondering what sort of anti troll nerf-bat superpower you have to get BR to back off his "..in effect he is treated as the target model.." means "don't treat him as the target model" position. Even partially. Usually once he's identified which stance benefits the armies he plays, he digs in like a tick!