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If The Emperor and all of his Primarchs (before they turned to chaos) were to have a battle when the good guys were at there full strength, who do you think would win?

*Let's just say it is possible for the gods to make physical manifestations of themselves and that all the space marines and custodes are battling all of the daemons*

Post your views!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, a battle against the gods =)

This is a tough one, we don't know how powerful would Chaos Gods be in material universe, and we already know that Emperor and his 18 sons as insanely powerful.

I would be to in the Emperor after all, it's Chaos Gods who would fight on his terms. And he would receive help from the Eldar without doubt ( Eldar mostly help Humans when something big like this is happening ).

I reckon this battle would go one-sided for Chaos because of the ability to draw power from the warp to summon demons. But can I just add wouldn't be the Big 4 C'tan gods take on the chaos gods?
Another question would the Emperor be considered a warp god because of the shamans from the old world sacrificed themselves to create him, so he might be able to summon things to?

I would place my bet on Chaos. The Emperor failed to stop Horus from destroying the Imperium.

Pre-Heresy, easy victory for Chaos. You said before they turned traitor.

The Emperor's plan to defeat Chaos was much longer reaching than that point in time.

Interesting. What if there were no daemons or marines, and it was on a neutral battlefield (ie. No chaos or realspace, something in between).

Thank you for replies!

You cannot kill a god conventionally? The only thing that kills a god is lack of belief in it's existence? It's like trying to kill an idea, or ideology.

Warrior Squirrel wrote:I would place my bet on Chaos. The Emperor failed to stop Horus from destroying the Imperium.

Um, actually, he did stop him from destroying the Imperium - at a high cost, admittedly, but last I checked Horus is... dead, and the Traitors are whining away in the Eye of Terror!

mwnciboo wrote:You cannot kill a god conventionally? The only thing that kills a god is lack of belief in it's existence? It's like trying to kill an idea, or ideology.

Warhammer gods do not work like D&D gods. Khorne needs no worshippers, all he needs is primal agression and bloodshed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alpharius wrote:

Warrior Squirrel wrote:I would place my bet on Chaos. The Emperor failed to stop Horus from destroying the Imperium.

Um, actually, he did stop him from destroying the Imperium - at a high cost, admittedly, but last I checked Horus is... dead, and the Traitors are whining away in the Eye of Terror!

Poor Horus even failed to prevent his vision from comming to pass. Yet the Dark Gods have clearly won this round.
War, despair, false hope and decadence are more widespread than they have ever been before. The Imperium is now rotten to the core and as long as it exists the chaosgods will feast.

KingDeath wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:You cannot kill a god conventionally? The only thing that kills a god is lack of belief in it's existence? It's like trying to kill an idea, or ideology.

Warhammer gods do not work like D&D gods. Khorne needs no worshippers, all he needs is primal agression and bloodshed.

Well, technically, the Chaos god do need worship to sustain, they just don't need to be worshipped per say.

For example, Nurgle exists so long as decay and disease does.
Tzeentch exists so long as mortals long for knowledge and power.
Khorne exists so long as mortals wish for bloodshed and war and destruction
Slaanesh exists so long as mortals want pleasure and dominion over others.


Therefore, if the Emperor and the Primarchs were to fights the gods, they would lose. Magnus and various others would constantly empower Tzeentch. Slaanesh could maybe be defeated. Deaths would empower Nurgle. And for all intents and purposes, Khorne is invincible; as long as the Empoeror and his sons fight, Khorne exists and will defeat them.

So, Chaos wins. Powerful as the Emperor is/was, he and his sons do not match the powers of the warp :/


Or that's how I see it

Von Chogg

The only way for the Emperor and the Primarchs to win is to not play the game...

As Von Chogg said each of the chaos gods exist due to some aspect of humanity. The fact they would be fighting anything would be enough to sustain Khorne. Each of the other gods get in on it as well.

Quite frankly, the only way to kill off chaos would be to kill off probably every living thing in the galaxy.

Von Chogg wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:You cannot kill a god conventionally? The only thing that kills a god is lack of belief in it's existence? It's like trying to kill an idea, or ideology.

Warhammer gods do not work like D&D gods. Khorne needs no worshippers, all he needs is primal agression and bloodshed.

Well, technically, the Chaos god do need worship to sustain, they just don't need to be worshipped per say.

For example, Nurgle exists so long as decay and disease does.
Tzeentch exists so long as mortals long for knowledge and power.
Khorne exists so long as mortals wish for bloodshed and war and destruction
Slaanesh exists so long as mortals want pleasure and dominion over others.


Therefore, if the Emperor and the Primarchs were to fights the gods, they would lose. Magnus and various others would constantly empower Tzeentch. Slaanesh could maybe be defeated. Deaths would empower Nurgle. And for all intents and purposes, Khorne is invincible; as long as the Empoeror and his sons fight, Khorne exists and will defeat them.

So, Chaos wins. Powerful as the Emperor is/was, he and his sons do not match the powers of the warp :/


Or that's how I see it

Von Chogg

I doubt Slaanesh could be defeated. It would be drawing power from the primarchs' quests for skill in their chosen area, and it could be constantly laughing about their hidden desires as they fought.

Except that, when the Emperor struck the death-blow against Horus, the Great Four fled from him, lest they, too, be destroyed in the process.

It's theorized that the Emperor could, in such a conflict, just blast the Chaos Gods out of existence utterly.

Psienesis wrote:Except that, when the Emperor struck the death-blow against Horus, the Great Four fled from him, lest they, too, be destroyed in the process.

It's theorized that the Emperor could, in such a conflict, just blast the Chaos Gods out of existence utterly.

The Great Four withdrew their power from Horus because they didn't want to waste it.

There's a reason they refer to the Emperor as the "Anathema".

Brother Coa wrote:This is a tough one, we don't know how powerful would Chaos Gods be in material universe, and we already know that Emperor and his 18 sons as insanely powerful.

I would be to in the Emperor after all, it's Chaos Gods who would fight on his terms. And he would receive help from the Eldar without doubt ( Eldar mostly help Humans when something big like this is happening ).

Aren't all daemon's from nurglings to lords of change pieces of whatever god they came from? From what I read I'm pretty sure that's the case, and seeing how powerful their greater daemons are in the material realm I'm pretty sure the gods themselves would be more so.

I'm not too familiar with all of the fluff, but I will say that even as a vegetable, the Emperor is able to project the astronomicon through the warp. I don't know if the chaos gods have tried to interfere with it, but nobody seems to have effected it so far.(I know it's slowly fading but I doubt that's from outside influence)
If the Emperor was at full strength, let alone consciousness, he'd be able to lay down some serious hurt on the chaos gods. There is a small chance that he could best their material forms, but i doubt it. I don't think the primarchs themselves would be of any use though.

The bottom line is, so long as there are mortals there are the chaos gods. Tzeentch will not my favorite, has plotted every plan that could ever be conceived and under NO circumstances would he allow himself to fall. While it is unlikely i could see situations that erase the existence of the other 3 but not tzeentch. He could have crushed the imperium and enslaved humanity long ago, but doesn't out of fear he'll get bored.

Psienesis wrote:There's a reason they refer to the Emperor as the "Anathema".

Anathema:
1:to be formally set apart;

2:banished, exiled, excommunicated;

3:denounced, sometimes accursed.

It also originally meant an offering to the gods. Make of that what you will.

Also, the Emperor doesn't project the Astronomicon, he focuses it.

a·nath·e·ma
   /əˈnæθəmə/ Show Spelled[uh-nath-uh-muh]
noun, plural -mas.
1.
a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2.
a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3.
a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4.
any imprecation of divine punishment.
5.
a curse; execration.

The Emperor is more powerful than the Chaos Gods.

One would think this argument would cease to be after it's been stated or shown several times in the fluff.

Off the top of my head, the 4e Chaos codex states the Chaos Gods were jealous of his power, Collected Visions states that his psychic power is devastating the realm of Chaos as well as stating that Horus had the massed might of Chaos at his disposal (Despite this, the Emperor was the more powerful, and he only was so wounded because he didn't use his full power), Ingethel in First Heretic also claims that he is devastating the Realm of Chaos (Though she seems to believe that he does so unwittingly), etc.

The 4th ed codex said they were jealous of his power because of the primarchs if I'm not mistaken. Horus didn't have the full power of the gods, just a fragment, and the Emperor only managed to beat him because he hit him with a psychic attack while Horus' attention was elsewhere. He could have blocked the attack had he not been distracted. And the Emperor was wounded physically, not psychically, which was where he had the block. He was devastating the realm of Chaos because the Imperial Truth was denying them religion, which amps up the power they get from people.

And it's never been stated that the Emperor is more powerful than the gods.

Psienesis wrote:a·nath·e·ma
   /əˈnæθəmə/ Show Spelled[uh-nath-uh-muh] Show IPA
noun, plural -mas.
1.
a person or thing detested or loathed: That subject is anathema to him.
2.
a person or thing accursed or consigned to damnation or destruction.
3.
a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication.
4.
any imprecation of divine punishment.
5.
a curse; execration.

So you meant that the reason they call him Anathema is because they really don't like him and intend to destroy him because he excommunicated them?

Or is capable of "excommunicating" them from the Warp entirely, yes.

Durza wrote:The 4th ed codex said they were jealous of his power because of the primarchs if I'm not mistaken.

You are.

Or rather, that is not supported by the text.

It simply states that the gods were "jealous of the Emperor's power and fearful of his ambitions". They feared what he meant to do.

Horus didn't have the full power of the gods, just a fragment, and the Emperor only managed to beat him because he hit him with a psychic attack while Horus' attention was elsewhere. He could have blocked the attack had he not been distracted.

Wrong.

"In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint."

From Collected Visions. "Massed might", and the canon dictates that the Emperor's full power wasn't being brought to bear.

"The Emperor sees the trap that has been set for him. He has been restraining himself, trying not to hurt one who has been as a son to him. Now he sees that there is no trace of his trusted comrade left. He knows that he must stop this semblance of his former friend and avenge the fallen Terminator. He must strike one deadly blow. He will get no other chance.

He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it at Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face.

The Emperor lets fly. It strikes the Warmaster. Horus screams as destruction rains down on him, twisting and writhing in titanic agony. He strives frantically to counter the Emperor's deathblow but his struggles become ever more feeble as the lethal energies play over him.

Driven by all the force of his rage and pain and hatred, the Emperor wills Horus's death. He senses the forces of Chaos retreat, disengaging themselves from their pawn."

Once more from Collected Visions. Horus turns and sees the Emperor charging his attack, but was helpless to block it, frozen in fear. So apparently Horus was frozen in fear when he saw the full power of the Emperor, despite himself containing the massed might of the gods.

Also, your argument that they only withdrew their power because they didn't want to waste it is blatantly nonsense. Why would they do that? Starchild arguments aside, the current 5e codex dictates that the Emperor is the only thing keeping Chaos from spilling into the Materium and consuming humanity, aka just what they want. Why leave their pawn if they could have destroyed the Emperor then and there?

And the Emperor was wounded physically, not psychically, which was where he had the block.

What point are you trying to make, other than that the Chaos Gods could gain no purchase on the Emperor's mind because he is more powerful than they are in the Warp?

He was devastating the realm of Chaos because the Imperial Truth was denying them religion, which amps up the power they get from people.

Speculation, nothing more. All that is said is that his psychic power, no, not the Imperial Truth, was actually physically (Sort of? Lol ) destroying the realms of the Chaos Gods.

They feared him for a reason.

And it's never been stated that the Emperor is more powerful than the gods.

It's been explicitly shown.

I'm not saying that the Emperor was so much more powerful than the Chaos Gods that he could have easily ended Horus when they fought, his full power was required. But he is the stronger.

Like all daemons the chaosgods are only as strong in the material universe as their mortal vessels permit
Therefore the battle vs Horus shows only that Horus wasn't strong enough to serve as a suitable vessel and not that the carriongod was somehow
inherently more powerful than the chaosgods ( which would make little sense, given his origin as a conglomerate of human souls compared to the raging, sentient warpstorms, in the case of Slaanesh powered by billions of eldar souls, that are the gods ).

KingDeath wrote:Like all daemons the chaosgods are only as strong in the material universe as their mortal vessels permit
Therefore the battle vs Horus shows only that Horus wasn't strong enough to serve as a suitable vessel and not that the carriongod was somehow
inherently more powerful than the chaosgods ( which would make little sense, given his origin as a conglomerate of human souls compared to the raging, sentient warpstorms, in the case of Slaanesh powered by billions of eldar souls, that are the gods ).

Only the text directly states the battle took place on both the physical and psychic levels, it also states that the Emperor stands against the massed might of them.

The text disagrees with you.

Void__Dragon wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Like all daemons the chaosgods are only as strong in the material universe as their mortal vessels permit
Therefore the battle vs Horus shows only that Horus wasn't strong enough to serve as a suitable vessel and not that the carriongod was somehow
inherently more powerful than the chaosgods ( which would make little sense, given his origin as a conglomerate of human souls compared to the raging, sentient warpstorms, in the case of Slaanesh powered by billions of eldar souls, that are the gods ).

Only the text directly states the battle took place on both the physical and psychic levels, it also states that the Emperor stands against the massed might of them.

The text disagrees with you.

The text states that the battle between Horus and the Carriongod took place on the physical and psychic level. This does in no way imply that the carriongod fought the chaosgods themself, he merely fought their mortal pawn. The 5. edition rulebook not only states that the carriongod is standing against the gods ( and somehow protecting the entire galaxy from daemonic posession which is rather odd since many of the denizens of the warp are far older than the emprah and yet the galaxy still exists, but perhaps that part refers to the webwaygate on terra ) but also that he is losing (p.101) that fight.

The chaos gods would beat the living crap out of the Emperor and his sons, but end up fighting each other over the killing blow on the Emperor and the Emperor will use this brief moment to banish them back to the warp, wait does this sound familiar.

KingDeath wrote:The text states that the battle between Horus and the Carriongod took place on the physical and psychic level. This does in no way imply that the carriongod fought the chaosgods themself, he merely fought their mortal pawn. The 5. edition rulebook not only states that the carriongod is standing against the gods ( and somehow protecting the entire galaxy from daemonic posession which is rather odd since many of the denizens of the warp are far older than the emprah and yet the galaxy still exists, but perhaps that part refers to the webwaygate on terra ) but also that he is losing (p.101) that fight.

Sorry for the late response.

You are ignoring the "massed" part, the Chaos Gods have "massed" their power to defeat the Emperor, and failed to kill him.

Yes, he is losing. You're sort of ignoring that he is also a skeleton on a chair, barely alive and constantly dying, fed corpses to stay alive.

In the universe of 40k, Chuck Norris facts live on.

Only, rather than being about Chuck Norris, they are about the Emprah.

And rather than being a trivial internet meme, they are Ecclesiarchal dogma, kept in gilded tomes across the Imperium, with special Order Minoris of of Sororitas assigned to make sure everyone hears them, all the time.