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I think the fluff behind Firewarriors and Stealth Suits is really cool but sadly their model are not that competitive. I had some ideas for some rule changes that would make them better without overpowering them.

Firewarriors:
1. Give Firewarriors photon grenades for free
2. The Tau codex talks about advance medical gear on Devilfish. Add a rule to the devilfish that any Tau unit not in a battlesuit that is in, or within 6 inches, of a Devilfish gains "Feel no pain." The justification for not working on battle suits and kroot is that the pilots of battle suits would need to be removed to from their suit to treat their wounds and the medical gear on Devilfish is not designed for kroot physiology.

Stealth suits:
All Stealth suits in a squad can take markerlight for 5 points each and can take a twin linked marker light for 10 points apiece.

I think that these changes would add a lot of varitiy to Tau armies without overpowering them

Just give them bs 4, that would already help.... i dont see how feel no pain would balance them out tbh.
Marker lights on stealths is something i like the sound of tho !

mayfist wrote:Just give them bs 4, that would already help.... i dont see how feel no pain would balance them out tbh.
Marker lights on stealths is something i like the sound of tho !

No, maybe give battlesuits BS 4, but in other armies BS 4 is a sign that a unit is elite, it goes to Space Marines, guard veterans who have served in many campaigns, commissars, aspect warriors who train in a highly specific form of warfare, and other such models. There is no fluff reason to justify BS 4 in basic fire warriors

FNP would help them survive FOF attacks and make them a stronger gun line

Buttons wrote:No, maybe give battlesuits BS 4, but in other armies BS 4 is a sign that a unit is elite, it goes to Space Marines, guard veterans who have served in many campaigns, commissars, aspect warriors who train in a highly specific form of warfare, and other such models. There is no fluff reason to justify BS 4 in basic fire warriors

Maybe this is just me... and this is going to sound like whining... And also don't think that I am of the thought proccess of "Give everything in the Tau army BS4, that'll fix em!" it won't, 16% more chance to hit isn't going to fix the race.

Firstly, fluff changes with every new codex, the overall theme of the race doesn't get changed to much. What all the units do and why they do it and how they do it are explained differently whenever GW needs to tweak balance. At the end of the day Warhammer40k is a game, it's not a story. Taking this back to my wheelhouse, computer gaming, when Blizzard realized that Warlock Shadowbolt spam was to powerful, they adjusted down thier stats of Shadowbolt, Warlocks whined and moaned that they were getting nerfed and that it wasn't neccesary, but no one, complained that "In the Warcraft books Gul'dan killed demons/dragons/whatever (who are essentially raid bosses) with a single Shadowbolt", and because of that shadowbolt should be more powerful if anything. Maybe I just don't understand that, why people equate fluff to some sort of a statline, and why people so vehemently oppose balancing the game, and making the fluff up after.

Secondly, even if we are saying fluff defines statlines, what does the IG fluff for thier vets getting BS4 apply to Tau in any way. Why does the SM fluff for all of them getting BS4 apply to Tau in any way. By that logic we should say "If any unit is a 'Veteran', it gets +1BS because of the IG codex" therefore, Veteran SM squads should have BS5, right? Because we apply IF fluff to Tau, why not to SMs. Every race explains itself in different ways, and their codexes stand independant of eachother. IG vets get BS4 because they have battlefield experience. SM gets BS4 because of thier genetic modifications and tech. DE get BS4 because they are ancient and powerful. Eldar get BS4 because they are ancient and powerful. Why can't Tau get BS4 because of Technology?

Shrug, the whole "Nothing in the fluff supports giving ZZZ Army YYY Thing" bit is getting old. It usually is only brought up with Tau, which everyone says is the weakest codex, but the first thing anyone says when people discuss ways to make them not horrible is "THE FLUFF DOES NOT SUPPORT, CANNOT CHANGE FLUFF, IT IS IMMUTABLE". IIRC the entire Necron story, unit list, and statlines and special rules changed with thier newest codex. Statlines and special rules define the game, fluff is just there to paint a richer story than a bunch of rules in a book, it is not there to define the stats of the units.

On a side note... where does it say that Fire Warriors can't have heavy weapons in the fluff, I've read the codex a few times and haven't found that bit.

Without a full-out Codex redising, Ballistic Skill 4 would be the most appropriate and easiest. Markerlights as Assault instead of Heavy. Bonding Knifes as (free) standard. A LD boost for Firewarriors would also help, not sure why they are so low, and also differentiate them a bit from the perhaps more "undisciplined" Kroot, etc..

FW should be given all their grenade options for free just like the SM got.... That is a given....

The FW can maintain his BS 3 that is fine by me.... What really sucks with the Tau other than crap CC... is their lack of being able to do anything other than spam bullets...

Drones will fix the lowly FW. MP Drones, FB Drones, PR Drone, Medical Drone (FNP), Stealth Gen Drone etc will all be upgrades that would make the FW useful again.

BS4 belongs on EVERY suit be it XV88 and XV8. Their is no reason the suit targetting system is so bad that a IG grunt shoots as good with the human naked eye and reflexes....

As for the fluff it dosent say they DONT take anything with them it merely suggest that their tactics and strategies call for mobility which means big heavy guns etc are not preferred.... since a Drone floats it woudnt slow anything down and would thus be fluffy for the Tau FW not to be carrying the gun themselves........

In regards to Tau and the use of Heavy/Special Weaponry

The Tau burst rifle is massive and unwieldy for regular infantry, and it's pretty much the smallest of the crew. Their plasma guns, fusion blasters, missile pods, etc., would require heavy weapons teams similar to the ones employed by the imperium - this is contrary to the Tau's strong aversion to holding a predictable line. If it can't advance and fire, it needs to be redesigned or reassigned.

For the most part, this is why I'm a proponent of Pulse Rifles being Assault 1 from 30-15", and Assault 2 within 15". I'm a proponent of Assault, or at the very least, rapidfire markerlights. I am all for making all instances of markerlights networked.

If I had to take the Tau codex in its current form, and make the fewest changes to it to make it feel more playable and fun

Crisis Suits are not limited to only 1 of a weapon, and can purchase more wargear.

Stealth Suits reduce assault distance as well as fire distance.

Firewarriors can be taken in squads of up to 24, with multiple shas'ui and come with photon grenades, more markerlight availability. Pulse Rifle gains the above change.

Markerlights reduced in cost army-wide.

Piranhas 10 point reduction, AV11 side.

Devilfish down to 50 points.

Hammerhead down a few points, railgun down a few points for it.

Skyrays can fire their own seeker missiles, regain seeker missiles.

Zookie wrote:IStealth suits:
All Stealth suits in a squad can take markerlight for 5 points each and can take a twin linked marker light for 10 points apiece.

I think that these changes would add a lot of varitiy to Tau armies without overpowering them

I think that if they had longer range Burst Cannons, stealth suits would be far better, say "Long-Barrelled Burst Cannons" 24" S5AP5 Assault 3 or something, just some range to make thier stealth-ness matter more.

Difference would be... currently a stealth suit that fired on an infantry unit(not jump) can be a max of 18" away for the shooting phase of thier opponent, giving them a 27.7%(10/36) chance of being invisible for the counter attack. if thier range was 24" they would have a 58.3%(21/36) chance of being invisible.

I dunno just a simple idea to make the "special" part of the unit stand out more.

chrisrawr wrote:
Piranhas 10 point reduction, AV11 side.

Forgeworld has a priahna model with 11 side armor and twin linked fusion blasters as well as a targetting array all standard for 10 or 15 points more than the regular pirahna.

Other ideas are great though, i especially agree with multiple same weps on crisis.

One other idea would be to make pathfinders relentless or give them some sort of rapid redeployment skill so they can embark and disembark on the same turn.

I toyed briefly with making pathfinders relentless, but it works better just to make markerlights assault. I see no reason to count Pathfinder Devilfish as open-topped ultra - seems a bit cheese-core to me.

The FW piranha is, yes, 10 points more than the regular, base piranha, but gets 15 points in upgrades and +1 side armour, not to mention better options. And don't even get me started on Tetras!

So, yeah. Drop base cost of Piranha by 10, give it side 11 standard. You can buy everything else.

Buttons wrote:

mayfist wrote:Just give them bs 4, that would already help.... i dont see how feel no pain would balance them out tbh.
Marker lights on stealths is something i like the sound of tho !

No, maybe give battlesuits BS 4, but in other armies BS 4 is a sign that a unit is elite, it goes to Space Marines, guard veterans who have served in many campaigns, commissars, aspect warriors who train in a highly specific form of warfare, and other such models. There is no fluff reason to justify BS 4 in basic fire warriors

FW come from a cast of tau trained from birth to fight. The reason they have bs3 IIRC in the codex is some crap about the eyesight being "to good" and it will blind them somehow if its not toned down.... and this is fixed by shining lights at there targets... say whaaaat ?!

They realy should be bs4. Battlesuits could even have bs5 imo, there a shooty army with no cc options unless you count kroot.

Markerlights should be assault, or at least rapidfire.... you can shot and move that big pulse rifle but you cant aim a light at something ? Genius.

mayfist wrote:
FW come from a cast of tau trained from birth to fight.

Yes, and this gets them all the way up to BS 3.

People so readily accept that aliens are better than humans in some way but always so hesitant to understand humans can better than aliens too.

DarknessEternal wrote:

mayfist wrote:
FW come from a cast of tau trained from birth to fight.

Yes, and this gets them all the way up to BS 3.

People so readily accept that aliens are better than humans in some way but always so hesitant to understand humans can better than aliens too.

This may come from the fact that human generals use there men like you would use a steam roller, with very little regard for the life.

I do really hate finding ways to fix armies by making their transports important, but I do really like the idea of mobilized tau and insertion tactics for them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Devilfish APC
60 Points
BS 3 Front 12 Sides 11 Rear 10
Type: Tank, Skimmer

Wargear: Underslung Burst Cannon and pair of gun drones. Landing Gear.
Options: May purchase vehicle wargear at the cost listed in the appropriate section of the codex.

May exchange it's pair of gun drones for a Smart Missile System at 10 points. (twin-linked maybe?)
May exchange it's underslung Burst Cannon for a top mounted twin-linked markerlight for free.

For 10 points the devilfish may be equipped with On-board Stim Injectors.

Transport: same
Access Points: same
Fire Points: same

Special Rules
On-board Stim Injectors:
Considerably more comfortable than its eldar or imperial counterparts, Tau transports often feature advanced medical amenities and technology. Though, not entirely useful to squads already deployed to the field there are certain proactive measures warriors of the firecast have discovered to "calm their nerves". Any Squad disembarking from a devilfish with On-board Stim Injectors counts as having the Feel No Pain universal special rule until the beginning of your next turn.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

I also think that fire warriors should have more defining options in their squad leader upgrade. Perhaps a loadout that comes with bonding knife and grenades as one option, and maybe a scout one that has a carabine or rail rifle, the positional array and maybe an infantry version of the disruption pod thing that gives them a turn of stealth when they use it. Maybe some guy that communicates with ethereal better? Maybe a medical one?
They'd all have reasonable options for markerlights and drones.

You guys think the Devilfish Should have an expensive option to purchase a fusion gun instead of the burst cannon?

mayfist wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

mayfist wrote:
FW come from a cast of tau trained from birth to fight.

Yes, and this gets them all the way up to BS 3.

People so readily accept that aliens are better than humans in some way but always so hesitant to understand humans can better than aliens too.

This may come from the fact that human generals use there men like you would use a steam roller, with very little regard for the life.

What about the countless Imperial Generals who use their men carefully and actually value their soldiers? This also doesnt change the fact that the Imperial Guard are also suppose to be a highly trained force. The reason officers treat their men like that is because in the face of Space Marines who have far supperior tactical ability and skill or Orks who have strength and numbers or Eldar who can damn near see the future, the only thing these officers can do is send their men as cannon fodder. Real Life example, General U.S. Grant was an excellent officer, one of the best officers in the Civil War, however his opponent was an even better commander. To defeat Lee, Grant relied on attritonal battles. This did not mean Grant was a bad officer, did not value his men, or that the Union army was a weak and poorly trained army.

There are many Imperial Regiments that are trained from an early age to fight and they have a BS3 to reflect this.

I also have to admit, Assault seems like a strange choice to make their guns. Have you noticed the size of the thing the Firewarrior carries? Assault Weapons are suppose to be weapons that are made to be shot without aiming properly, to shoot on the move such as Flamethrowers, Shotguns, SMGs. Ya that gun seems like it would be impossible to hit anything from the hip with.



How should one fix Firewarriors? Im not sure, however I know BS4 and Assault weapons doesnt really make sense from a fluff standpoint. Im weak on the crunch mechanics of the game because of the few number of games I have played. One reason is I like the fluff more than the gameplay

Uh, have you played Firewarrior? The damn thing is about as "assault" as it gets. It's also about the size and weight of the modern XM-8; these things get tossed around willy-nilly. Assault also fits the Tau battle strategy better; tactical retreat, long-range engagements.

chrisrawr wrote:Uh, have you played Firewarrior? The damn thing is about as "assault" as it gets. It's also about the size and weight of the modern XM-8; these things get tossed around willy-nilly. Assault also fits the Tau battle strategy better; tactical retreat, long-range engagements.

No I never played it.

It looks like the size of an M-16 and an M-16 would not be an assault weapon.


I got the impression that assault is the exact opposite, you are assaulting the enemy, not performing a fighting retreat. However the ability to shoot on the move the way an assault weapon can does fit with the strategy like you suggested.

*Shrugs* I guess I can see how it would be an assault weapon, especially if they have a HUD in that helmet linked to the gun.