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I have looked at this in the codex and the story about LRC creation seems strange. BT were figting a stalemate campaign and they just happened to find the tech (STC?), that they needed to win the thing. I mean this look like too much coincidence. Oh sure, for the 40k universe dweller it can by explained by the guiding hand of the Emperor, but I don´t buy it. Do you think its possible they built it without STC and forged the plans? The chapter has techmarines and it is the most fanatical one, so I can imagine them putting winning a war for the Emperor before pleasing the Omnisisah. Also the LRC doesn´t actually use any new tech, its already "blessed" weapons used on a new vehicle. What do you think?

I never interpreted the story as the LRC plans were simply found but created by the Templars like the ares pattern was invented by DA tech marines and the redeemer was also invented by tech marines.

Yep. For all intents and purposes, the LRC is just some new guns on a Redeemer or stock Land Raider. And we see guns being switched out all the time with wargear options. I mean, the Blood Angels have the Lucius pattern engines in most of their Rhino-Chassis vehicles, which no other chapter has.

hubaj wrote:I have looked at this in the codex and the story about LRC creation seems strange. BT were figting a stalemate campaign and they just happened to find the tech (STC?), that they needed to win the thing. I mean this look like too much coincidence. Oh sure, for the 40k universe dweller it can by explained by the guiding hand of the Emperor, but I don´t buy it. Do you think its possible they built it without STC and forged the plans? The chapter has techmarines and it is the most fanatical one, so I can imagine them putting winning a war for the Emperor before pleasing the Omnisisah. Also the LRC doesn´t actually use any new tech, its already "blessed" weapons used on a new vehicle. What do you think?

Oh sure, it makes sense to you that guys are traveling across the galaxy in space ships to kill each other with swords and axes, or that the empire is ruled by an immortal super being whose been dead for ten thousand years, but not that this tank design could coincidentally show up just when needed.

The real origin of the land raider crusader is this. About 10 years ago GW put out a codex that included, for the first time IIRC, special rules for salamanders and black templars armies. The main bad guys were orks, so salamanders got tons of flame throwers and black templars got a tank with tons of bolters. A few years later GW realized that the crusader was waaaayyyyy better than the standard raider design so they made it available to everyone so they'd sell more models. Then they retconned the fluff to reflect their expanded model range. That's pretty much all there is to it.

Swords and axes aren't so ridiculous...
If armour can defeat firearms then melee becomes viable...

purplefood wrote:Swords and axes aren't so ridiculous...
If armour can defeat firearms then melee becomes viable...

That, and I would imagine its a bit cheaper to mass produce swords and axes than laser rifles and bolters.
Also, swords don't need bullets.

purplefood wrote:Swords and axes aren't so ridiculous...
If armour can defeat firearms then melee becomes viable...

Right. Because an axe blow carries alot more force than a missile strike.
It's only not ridiculous if you start out with ridiculous assumptions.

hubaj wrote:I have looked at this in the codex and the story about LRC creation seems strange. BT were figting a stalemate campaign and they just happened to find the tech (STC?), that they needed to win the thing. I mean this look like too much coincidence. Oh sure, for the 40k universe dweller it can by explained by the guiding hand of the Emperor, but I don´t buy it. Do you think its possible they built it without STC and forged the plans? The chapter has techmarines and it is the most fanatical one, so I can imagine them putting winning a war for the Emperor before pleasing the Omnisisah. Also the LRC doesn´t actually use any new tech, its already "blessed" weapons used on a new vehicle. What do you think?

That makes sense. They probably cheated. Said they found a STC, but there is no STC they just bolted some new weapons on the thing.

The LRC was basically a refit of the standard Land Raider that was approved by the Mechanicus after the fact.

GreatGunz wrote:

purplefood wrote:Swords and axes aren't so ridiculous...
If armour can defeat firearms then melee becomes viable...

Right. Because an axe blow carries alot more force than a missile strike.
It's only not ridiculous if you start out with ridiculous assumptions.

Yes, because everyone has the resources to hand out shaped charge missiles.

If your armor is sufficient to deflect shrapnel from explosive blasts then armor is indeed viable.

Why do you think body armor is making a comeback in the modern world? In another 10-20 years I think we will have power armor analogs, possably even Terminator equivilents.

Grey Templar wrote:Why do you think body armor is making a comeback in the modern world?

Not because of axes and swords.

In another 10-20 years I think we will have power armor analogs, possably even Terminator equivilents.

Why? Because you think it would be cool? If you don't understand why it's cheaper to make armor piercing bullets than armor, then I can't explain it to you.

You have a million billion points of fething KHORNE!!! The litteral god of swords and axes

Yes. Quite.

GreatGunz wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why do you think body armor is making a comeback in the modern world?

Not because of axes and swords.

In another 10-20 years I think we will have power armor analogs, possably even Terminator equivilents.

Why? Because you think it would be cool? If you don't understand why it's cheaper to make armor piercing bullets than armor, then I can't explain it to you.

Armor is developing at a faster rate then armor piercing bullets are.

I'm not saying that swords and such will come back anytime soon, but that it will eventually cause a swing towards melee combat. It may take a hundred years but it will happen.

Its in the developing stage right now. AP bullets are still > then armor, but that will change sometime in the near future.

There will be soldiers that are practically immune to small arms fire and need anti-tank weapons to be brought down.


I'm talking about the future, not the present.

GreatGunz wrote:[Oh sure, it makes sense to you that guys are traveling across the galaxy in space ships to kill each other with swords and axes, or that the empire is ruled by an immortal super being whose been dead for ten thousand years, but not that this tank design could coincidentally show up just when needed.

I hate it when people make this argument; it's a non-sequitur. Science Fiction being...science fiction, doesn't justify bad writing.

Grey Templar wrote:

Armor is developing at a faster rate then armor piercing bullets are.

I'm not saying that swords and such will come back anytime soon, but that it will eventually cause a swing towards melee combat. It may take a hundred years but it will happen.

Its in the developing stage right now. AP bullets are still > then armor, but that will change sometime in the near future.

There will be soldiers that are practically immune to small arms fire and need anti-tank weapons to be brought down.


I'm talking about the future, not the present.

What? That doesn't make any sense. If armor can be created that nullifies armor piercing rounds, than that same armor would just be modified to nullify sword strikes. A bullet has a higher damaging potential than the force your body can put behind a melee weapon.

The real origin of the land raider crusader is this. About 10 years ago GW put out a codex that included, for the first time IIRC, special rules for salamanders and black templars armies. The main bad guys were orks, so salamanders got tons of flame throwers and black templars got a tank with tons of bolters. A few years later GW realized that the crusader was waaaayyyyy better than the standard raider design so they made it available to everyone so they'd sell more models. Then they retconned the fluff to reflect their expanded model range. That's pretty much all there is to it.

(Actually, even in that list there was a rule where other Chapter codex armies could use it, just with a maximum of one tank to show their rarity. Then the next codex allowed all Chapters to use any they wanted. I see the Stormraven getting the same availability treatment with the neSM Codex that will inevitably follow the release of 6th edition.)


The Crusader was simply an ad-hoc creation by the Black Templars, where they modified their Land Raiders for siege warfare during the Jerulas Crusade. It was successful enough that at a later date Mars approved it as a new pattern, though several other Chapters had started using it before the confirmation after hearing about through word-of-mouth. Like said before, it was nothing special, just lascannons removed for greater troop capacity and bolters tacked on in their place. No STC involved.

BlaxicanX wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:[Oh sure, it makes sense to you that guys are traveling across the galaxy in space ships to kill each other with swords and axes, or that the empire is ruled by an immortal super being whose been dead for ten thousand years, but not that this tank design could coincidentally show up just when needed.

I hate it when people make this argument; it's a non-sequitur. Science Fiction being...science fiction, doesn't justify bad writing.

But you answered your own question. It's bad writing. There isn't anything else to it. It's like you're reading a superman comic and you say "This is bull gak. No one could ever be faster than a speeding bullet." Well, yeah. Duh. Ofcourse not. It's.... fiction.

GreatGunz wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:[Oh sure, it makes sense to you that guys are traveling across the galaxy in space ships to kill each other with swords and axes, or that the empire is ruled by an immortal super being whose been dead for ten thousand years, but not that this tank design could coincidentally show up just when needed.

I hate it when people make this argument; it's a non-sequitur. Science Fiction being...science fiction, doesn't justify bad writing.

But you answered your own question. It's bad writing. There isn't anything else to it. It's like you're reading a superman comic and you say "This is bull gak. No one could ever be faster than a speeding bullet." Well, yeah. Duh. Ofcourse not. It's.... fiction.

Superman moving faster than a speeding isn't bad writing, though. Superman moving faster than a speeding bullet but not being to able to move fast enough to, say, catch a bullet before it hits Lois Lane, all for the sake of creating "storyline tension", is bad writing. There's a difference between scientific implausibility and poor storytelling.

Ok so it's bad writing like you said. Mystery solved.

Exactly. Ergo, scratching your head at why a tank design could "conveniently" show up at just the right time makes sense, even in a universe where people run into gunfights with giant chainsaw swords.

Do you smell that? It smells like...

The design never "just showed up". The Black Templars' techmarines just modified their existing Land Raiders for the task they needed them to do. Then the design caught on with other chapters, because it was effective at close-in firefights.

BlaxicanX wrote:Exactly. Ergo, scratching your head at why a tank design could "conveniently" show up at just the right time makes sense, even in a universe where people run into gunfights with giant chainsaw swords.

You got a silly answer because you asked a silly question. I'm moving on.

I haven't asked any questions in this thread. =|

... what are you talking about? xD