Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok while I was looking at the special charectors for the necrons, I noticed that Anrakyr the Traveller can take a comand barge. And as a result he gets to use his "sweep" attack. My queston is, can i use my unique power to "control" an enemy tank(tank 1); than use my Tachyon Arrow (str 10 ap1) vs. tank number 3. and then sweep attack tank 2 (with the warscythe).

It's ALOT of stuff for one model + a vehicle to do, but the sweep attack counts as an attack for the vehicle but uses the model's str + weapon special rules (2d6 armor pen) and Anrakyr's special rule of controlling a vehicle doesnt count as a shooting attack, and therefore doesnt constict my ability to shoot/target other vehicles/models.

So what do you think?

can Anrakyr do all of that in one turn?

You are able to do that, but not in the order you listed above. During your movement phase you utilize the sweep attacks on one vehicle. At the start of the shooting phase you may take over a vehicle, provided you disembark Anrakyr. The reason he must disembark is do to the FAQ ruling about using vehicle fire points to draw LOS for a special rule or wargear that is not a shooting attack. Then he may use his tachyon arrow at the final vehicle, and to top it all of, if that doesn't destroy it he can assault said vehicle.

Ok wow, i have a new favorate deathstar unit (of 2)

Just remember, no disembarking if you move Flat Out, so while you get into position for your one-two punch, you'll probably be vulnerable for at least a turn. And most players will see it coming.

You also can't use his mind in the machine while in the transport because of the most recent BRB FAQ, the only way he can do it is if the transport goes slow enough for him to disembark and he gets out of the transport.

Wait, I thought you can disembark from the CC Barge, even if you moved flat out, because it was open topped?

Nope, if it moves flat out you can't disembark.

... oops.
(sorry, guy that was playing Dark Angels against me last week!)

Anyway, slightly related, but while he's in the Barge and the barge is assaulted... what happens?
-does he just sit there while the guys next to him are wrecking his sweet pimp mobile?*
-does he open the window and start swatting at them with his scythe?**
-or does he jump out and start hacking away at the guys who are threatening to mess up his paint job?***

[*can not do anything]
[**can participate in CC from inside the barge, like sweep attack]
[***immediately disembarks when barge assaulted to participate in CC]

...
(and yes, I'm VERY new to the game, still)

He cannot do anything in response to an assault on his CCB. Well, not until your turn anyway (when you can fly away/assault them back/whatever). Treat a CCB-embarked Overlord just like any other unit embarked in a transport.

Lone Dragoon wrote:You are able to do that, but not in the order you listed above. During your movement phase you utilize the sweep attacks on one vehicle. At the start of the shooting phase you may take over a vehicle, provided you disembark Anrakyr. The reason he must disembark is do to the FAQ ruling about using vehicle fire points to draw LOS for a special rule or wargear that is not a shooting attack. Then he may use his tachyon arrow at the final vehicle, and to top it all of, if that doesn't destroy it he can assault said vehicle.

100% accurate if you accept that the command barge has a (or infinite) defined fire point. I don't. After reading though the Open-topped rules in the BRB I do not see anything that specifically defines a fire point for an open topped vehicle. Instead of a specific fire point, the embarked models may shoot and draw LoS from the hull of the vehicle. This specific rule in the OT section overrides the general requirement of needing a fire point to shoot from a vehicle.

A Fire Point is a thing in the context of the 40k rules. Much like 'rapid fire', 'leadership check', and 'disembark'. If an object in the game does not invoke this thing, it does not exist for that object. You may read the OT rules and think that the intent was for OT vehicles to have 1 giant fire point or an infinite number of them, but unless the rules entry actually says there is a fire point it simply doesn't exist.

Saying that the lack of a specific fire point automatically means the existence of a 'general one' because the only way to shoot from a vehicle is via a Fire Point does not follow. The OT rules provide an exception to this. Calling the entire hull of an OT vehicle a fire point is purely subjective and does not seem to me to be justified by the rules.

-Yad

Read it again. It does have a fire point its just not a specific point on the model (like the top hatch, etc).

Yad wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:You are able to do that, but not in the order you listed above. During your movement phase you utilize the sweep attacks on one vehicle. At the start of the shooting phase you may take over a vehicle, provided you disembark Anrakyr. The reason he must disembark is do to the FAQ ruling about using vehicle fire points to draw LOS for a special rule or wargear that is not a shooting attack. Then he may use his tachyon arrow at the final vehicle, and to top it all of, if that doesn't destroy it he can assault said vehicle.

100% accurate if you accept that the command barge has a (or infinite) defined fire point. I don't. After reading though the Open-topped rules in the BRB I do not see anything that specifically defines a fire point for an open topped vehicle. Instead of a specific fire point, the embarked models may shoot and draw LoS from the hull of the vehicle. This specific rule in the OT section overrides the general requirement of needing a fire point to shoot from a vehicle.

A Fire Point is a thing in the context of the 40k rules. Much like 'rapid fire', 'leadership check', and 'disembark'. If an object in the game does not invoke this thing, it does not exist for that object. You may read the OT rules and think that the intent was for OT vehicles to have 1 giant fire point or an infinite number of them, but unless the rules entry actually says there is a fire point it simply doesn't exist.

Saying that the lack of a specific fire point automatically means the existence of a 'general one' because the only way to shoot from a vehicle is via a Fire Point does not follow. The OT rules provide an exception to this. Calling the entire hull of an OT vehicle a fire point is purely subjective and does not seem to me to be justified by the rules.

-Yad

If you want to get into the, open-topped vehicles don't have a fire point debate. I'll just pull out this one from the open-topped vehicle rules page 70;

Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.

Now tell me where it says you can do anything but measure line of sight and range for firing a weapon. Spend some time finding that rule that allows you to use the open-topped vehicle for something other than shooting, and you'll come to this conclusion. It's not in the book. So if you want to use the, there's no fire point stance, I'll just go to the you can only fire out of an open-topped vehicle no using powers of any kind stance.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Yad wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:You are able to do that, but not in the order you listed above. During your movement phase you utilize the sweep attacks on one vehicle. At the start of the shooting phase you may take over a vehicle, provided you disembark Anrakyr. The reason he must disembark is do to the FAQ ruling about using vehicle fire points to draw LOS for a special rule or wargear that is not a shooting attack. Then he may use his tachyon arrow at the final vehicle, and to top it all of, if that doesn't destroy it he can assault said vehicle.

100% accurate if you accept that the command barge has a (or infinite) defined fire point. I don't. After reading though the Open-topped rules in the BRB I do not see anything that specifically defines a fire point for an open topped vehicle. Instead of a specific fire point, the embarked models may shoot and draw LoS from the hull of the vehicle. This specific rule in the OT section overrides the general requirement of needing a fire point to shoot from a vehicle.

A Fire Point is a thing in the context of the 40k rules. Much like 'rapid fire', 'leadership check', and 'disembark'. If an object in the game does not invoke this thing, it does not exist for that object. You may read the OT rules and think that the intent was for OT vehicles to have 1 giant fire point or an infinite number of them, but unless the rules entry actually says there is a fire point it simply doesn't exist.

Saying that the lack of a specific fire point automatically means the existence of a 'general one' because the only way to shoot from a vehicle is via a Fire Point does not follow. The OT rules provide an exception to this. Calling the entire hull of an OT vehicle a fire point is purely subjective and does not seem to me to be justified by the rules.

-Yad

If you want to get into the, open-topped vehicles don't have a fire point debate. I'll just pull out this one from the open-topped vehicle rules page 70;

Open-topped vehicles do not have specific fire points. Instead, all passengers in an open-topped vehicle may fire, measuring range and line of sight from the hull of the vehicle.

I'm well aware of this line from the rulebook. In fact, I'm sure when you read my post you saw that (not verbatim) in it.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Now tell me where it says you can do anything but measure line of sight and range for firing a weapon. Spend some time finding that rule that allows you to use the open-topped vehicle for something other than shooting, and you'll come to this conclusion. It's not in the book. So if you want to use the, there's no fire point stance, I'll just go to the you can only fire out of an open-topped vehicle no using powers of any kind stance.

Hmm, not sure what you getting at here. There are a host of rules regarding OT vehicles. Disembark, Assault, etc. Not sure what you're trying to prove picking out that particular rule out of the entire set of OT rules... I must be missing the point you're trying to make.

-Yad

What I was getting at there is you have permission to draw line of sight and shoot a weapon from. You do NOT have permission to use special rules or wargear out of an OT vehicle which means even if he was embarked on the vehicle, Anrakyr wouldn't be able to use his Mind in the Machine rule because you do not have permission to draw LOS for special rules. A person could say that because there's no fire points on an OT vehicle that they CAN use his power since it's only vehicles with fire points that are restricted. By using the statement I did it prevents people from trying to open that argument and prevents the OP from getting confused by having a debate of semantics open up. In other words I was trying to nip that argument in the bud before it devolved into another multi-page argument like some rules disputes do.

This already devolved into a 15 page argument that ended with most everyone agreeing that, as per the new FAQ, Anrakyr may NOT use MitM while embarked.

That's how it is, and you'll have to learn to live with it.

Lone Dragoon wrote:What I was getting at there is you have permission to draw line of sight and shoot a weapon from. You do NOT have permission to use special rules or wargear out of an OT vehicle which means even if he was embarked on the vehicle, Anrakyr wouldn't be able to use his Mind in the Machine rule because you do not have permission to draw LOS for special rules. A person could say that because there's no fire points on an OT vehicle that they CAN use his power since it's only vehicles with fire points that are restricted. By using the statement I did it prevents people from trying to open that argument and prevents the OP from getting confused by having a debate of semantics open up. In other words I was trying to nip that argument in the bud before it devolved into another multi-page argument like some rules disputes do.

Ahh, I see what you're getting at. I'll just respectfully disagree with your stance and leave it at that

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

McNinja wrote:This already devolved into a 15 page argument that ended with most everyone agreeing that, as per the new FAQ, Anrakyr may NOT use MitM while embarked.

That's how it is, and you'll have to learn to live with it.

Actually, that's how it is for you and like-minded individuals. And really, 'you'll have to learn to live with it'... It's just a game. On a scale of things that I need to learn to live with this is way way down at the bottom.


-Yad

Yad wrote:

Lone Dragoon wrote:What I was getting at there is you have permission to draw line of sight and shoot a weapon from. You do NOT have permission to use special rules or wargear out of an OT vehicle which means even if he was embarked on the vehicle, Anrakyr wouldn't be able to use his Mind in the Machine rule because you do not have permission to draw LOS for special rules. A person could say that because there's no fire points on an OT vehicle that they CAN use his power since it's only vehicles with fire points that are restricted. By using the statement I did it prevents people from trying to open that argument and prevents the OP from getting confused by having a debate of semantics open up. In other words I was trying to nip that argument in the bud before it devolved into another multi-page argument like some rules disputes do.

Ahh, I see what you're getting at. I'll just respectfully disagree with your stance and leave it at that

-Yad

Just make sure you inform your opponent about the arguments against using MiTM while embarked and your argument why it should work before you do it. Doing anything else is just plain cheating.

Crux of the issue is that open-topped vehicle have either infinite (no specific) firepoints and zero (no specific) firepoints, depending on how you interpret certain rules. I personally don't think it really doesn't matter which interpretation you choose, as the effect is exactly same as far as MiTM is regarded.

Luide wrote:Crux of the issue is that open-topped vehicle have either infinite (no specific) firepoints and zero (no specific) firepoints, depending on how you interpret certain rules. I personally don't think it really doesn't matter which interpretation you choose, as the effect is exactly same as far as MiTM is regarded.

Yep, if it has a fire point or not doesn't effect this, as passengers embarked in an Open-Topped transport are only given permission to fire, disembark or bail out (P70).

Unless permission to use abilities while embarked in an OP vehichle is given else where (I can't find it), then Anrakyr will just have to disembark.

Yad - find permission to draw LOS from within ANY vehilce when not shooting / using a psychic power. Note that you cannot use a firepoint to do so, as per the FAQ

Once you do this you will be right. Until then you are not.

So can the traveller fire the Arrow from the CCB?

Exalted Pariah wrote:So can the traveller fire the Arrow from the CCB?

Yes, assuming you either stayed still or moved at combat speed (6" max movement).

Exalted Pariah wrote:So can the traveller fire the Arrow from the CCB?[/quote
Given it is a shooting attack, you have permission to trace LOS from a fire point, and you then folow the rules for embarked models firing from a vehicle, same as any other weapon.

So I could sweep Tank A at 12", disembark* and MitM Tank B at Tank C, then Arrow Tank D (or finish Tank C off)?

This seems to be a fairly powerful combo.






*I'm assuming you can disembark at 12" from a fast vehicle. If you can't, strike me back as I have been cheating

Yes, and then you can assault what yu shot at or, if you destroyed a transport vehicle with your Arrow you can then potentially assault the contents.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you assault at I1 from being pinned? (say you exploded a LR and the guys inside were pinned. If you assault them, they are I1 from being pinned, right?)

No, a unit "gone to ground" through pinning or other means reacts normally to an assault against them.

I believe they act normally in assault the enemy just isnt penalized for assaulting them in cover. see page 24 in the BRB.

so you wont go to I1 for assaulting into the ruin and/or the crater caused the explosion