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Had a game with John last night. I've brought the Red Fleas out for a play. Here's the report.

Blood Angels "The Red Fleas" - 2,000 points


HQ

Librarian - jump pack, shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian - jump pack, shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard - jump packs, 4 x meltaguns & 3 x melta bombs

Elite

2 x Sanguinary Priests jump packs

Troops

10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist
10 x Assault Marines - 2 x meltaguns - sgt w/ power fist
10 x Assault Marines - 2 x flamers - sgt w/ power weapon
10 x Assault Marines - 2 x flamers - sgt w/ power weapon
5 x Scouts - 5 x sniper rifles & camo cloaks

Heavy Support

5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers
5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers
5 x Devastators - 4 x missile launchers


Eldar 'Craftworld Vagisil' - 2,000 points


HQ

Eldard Uthran
Farseer - guide

Elites

5 x Fire Dragons w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannons, shuriken cannon & spirit stones
5 x Fire Dragons w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannons, shuriken cannon & spirit stones
5 x Fire Dragons w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannons, shuriken cannon & spirit stones

Troops

5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannons, shuriken cannon & spirit stones
5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannons, shuriken cannon & spirit stones
5 x Dire Avengers w/ Wave Serpent - Serpent w/ twin-linked shuriken cannons, shuriken cannon & spirit stones

Heavy Support

3 x War Walkers - 6 x scatter lasers
3 x War Walkers - 6 x scatter lasers
3 x War Walkers - 6 x eldar missile launchers

Pre-Game Analysis

John has got a lot of fire power in his army, I think with all his S6 shots he could probably seriously maim and take out a full size Assault Squad a turn. His Dragons combined wouldn't have any problems taking out another squad either. The EML War Walkers shouldn't have any problems depleting or nuking small units i.e Honour Guard, Devastators and Scouts. I think with all this fire power I could be in for a tough game, I'll have to close the gap quickly and tackle those War Walker units as fast as I can.

Game: Spearhead + Seize Ground

Deployment

John wins the roll off and goes second. This will give him the last turn to get a objective, but while I can come closer in my first turn, this will put all of his guns into range.

I deploy my melta units at the front with the Honour Guard in between and then the flamer units behind with attached Priests and Librarians. Scouts stop in reserve while Devs deploy in ruins, one unit is in a large ruin right flank and two in a smaller ruin on the right by my board edge.

John deploys using ruins for cover putting a unit of scatter-walkers and eml-walkers and Eldrad's Wave Serpent behind a small ruin. He uses the large shrine ruin to cover the other scatter-walkers and a Serpent. The other Serpents have been held back.







* Tactical Notes

John has deployed all of his Serpents back, though I think his deployment could have been better. Near his board edge are two War Walker units and they will have to move out to draw LOS, now due to room I suspect one of those will come out towards me. I think John would have done better placing the War Walker units on the hill and in the small ruin on the hill to get some cover and also cover from the Serpents, his long range guns shouldn't be up front. The second mistake I think he has made is his Fire Dragons are too far back, this is good for me because if I can stop them moving it will buy me time before they come up and slag me.

So, with all that info, I'll bounce forward and run like I normally do. I'll fire krak missiles at War Walker units I can see as they have got very good cover, if I can thin out the unit I am happy. I'll fire remaining krak missiles into Dragon Serpents.

Turn 1

My first turn; I jump and run all jump infantry, they are probably still another turn away from assault, if John doesn't move his units towards me.

Shooting; Devs fire into the War Walkers in the shrine ruin, Walkers get cover, though one is shaken and another is destroyed - that unit has lost 2/3's of it's fire power so I won't be firing at them any more. I fire Devs into the other scatter War Walker unit and fail to cause any damage thanks to cover saves.

John's first turn; Serpents shuffle about, not a huge amount of movement for them. All War Walker units come out to play. Guideseer and Eldrad get all their powers off as I am currently out of hood range in order to stop them.

Shooting; scatter lasers and shuri cannons blast into a melta squad nearest the shrine ruin, three Assault Marines left and both meltas are dead, squad fails morale and falls back 7". EMLs blast the Honour Guard, thanks to John's poor shooting rolls and my good cover save rolls the Honour Guard only lose a single Blood Angel.







[mig]http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2012/3/30/347636_md-.jpg[/img]


* Tactical Notes

Ok, I think we're pretty even stevens atm. I've stopped 2/3's of a War Walker unit firing.

John hasn't done too bad either, though could have done better with his EML War Walkers. Luckily for him they were cast with guide as before re-rolls he only hit with 1 shot! I think he scored three wounds in total and I passed two covers. His scatters and shuri have done better and pretty much taken out a melta unit, there's no meltas left!

Next turn I'll bound up and hope the Honour Guard can nuke something while the remaining melta Assault Squad will bound up to the EML War Walkers. The depleted melta unit I'll regroup and just hide them away in terrain, if I need them for objectives I'll move them out later.

Turn 2

I roll for reserves and Scouts arrive, I move and run them into the ground floor of the same ruin the two units of Devs are holed up in.

Movement; I bound forward the Honour Guard with the flamer units flanking either side, the full strength melta Assault Squad bounds up to the EML War Walkers.

Shooting; Honour Guard blast a Dragon Wave Serpent, the skimmer tank is wrecked and Dragons fail pinning test. Assault Squad meltas blast the EML War Walkers and two go down. Krak missiles fire and I rip off two weapons and shake a War Walker in the full unit of scatter load out variants. I think that's it.

Assault; melta squad charges the War Walker, they cause immobilised and rip off a weapon though fail to take it out, I also lose a Space Marine in combat.

Eldar turn; operational Dragon Serpents move up and the Dragons bail out ready to dish the damage on Assault Marines. Everything else just shuffles. Guideseer I think fails to get his power off thanks to hood, though Eldrad casts all of his and dooms a flamer unit.

Shooting; Fire Dragons let rip with melta into a flamer unit towards the shrine along with mass shuri, about 7 Marines live and they pass morale. Mass scatters blast into the Honour Guard and only the Priest remains - passes morale.

Assault; EML War Walker gets boned by the melta Assault Marines, they consolidate 1" but start heading behind the ruin where the War Walkers deployed and to surround the remaining War Walkers.







* Tactical Notes

Not done too bad damage wise this turn, I've taken out the EML War Walker unit, pinned a Dragon unit thanks to their ride been wrecked and reduced the scatter War Walker numbers. I think so far it's still pretty even.

John has been giving as good as he has got. He's virtually taken out a Honour Guard unit, at least all the meltas have gone fro him and depleted a flamer unit.

I'm in position for turn 3 charges now. Those Fire Dragons will be a temporary road block, though they need to go. If I can reduce the remaining War Walkers down with krak missiles and melta I'll be happy.

Turn 3

Blood Angels turn 3; single Priest bounds up to assault the Fire Dragons along with a the full strength flamer unit, they can multi assault the Dragons ride. Melta Assault Squad bounds behinds the War Walkers by John's table edge and now I have them boxed in. Depleted flamer unit moves up to multi assault the other Fire Dragon squad which fired at them and multi assault the Dragon's ride.

Shooting; krak missiles fire and I explode a War Walker by the shrine ruin and immobilise the Fire Dragon's ride by the depleted flamer unit, kraks also immobilise Eldrad's ride - the slippery little dick fairy ain't going anywhere now . Dual meltaguns fire into the other War Walkers and leave just one standing. Flamers and bolt pistols from the depleted flamer unit fire into the Fire Dragons and kill two - squad passes morale.

Assault; melta squad charges the War Walker and causes some damage, combat remains on. Single Priest assault Fire Dragons along with support from full strength flamer unit who also multi assault the Dragon's ride, the Dragons lose combat after getting a face beating and their skimmer tank explodes - single Dragon survives and falls back right next to the War Walker - melta squad fight, looks like he won't be regrouping. Depleted flamer unit multi charges unit of Fire Dragons and their ride, Dragons survive though their tank is done over.

Looking at the board before John's turn it appears he's in a pickle. Two of my squads are engaged in combat with his units, which means he cannot fire at them and only has two valid targets, the single Priest and full strength flamer unit.

John moves his remaining operational Wave Serpents and that's about it. Eldrad attempts to doom the full strength flamer unit twice and I block it with the psychic hood.

Shooting; all guns fire and blast the full strength flamer unit, 7 left and the Librarian is wounded - squad passes morale.

Assault; Dragons engaged with the flamer unit are wiped out and the depleted unit moves further into Eldar lines. Melta squad finishes off the single War Walkers and now eyes up Eldrad's Wave Serpent.





* Tactical Notes

Wow, it's been heavy hitting for me and heavy losses for John. Two Wave Serpents have gone this turn thanks to lucky assault rolls (though one Serpent was immobilised), two Fire Dragon units have been cut up into little chunks and a whole unit of War Walkers have vanished. Notable damage mentions is the last War Walker on the table is shaken and Eldrad's ride has been immobilised, oh I've been wanting to feth Eldrad over for sometime, I might get my wish...

Next turn the melta squad will bound over Eldrad's ride and target the rear armour as the energy shield doesn't cover the rear. Flamer units will move up and tackle the remaining Dragon unit. Krak missiles will just blow gak up.

Turn 4

Melta squad jumps over Eldrad's Wave Serpent and eyes up the juicy weaker rear armour. Single Priest moves up to allow the supporting depleted flamer unit to move up. Other depleted flamer unit moves up to assault the Farseer's ride.

Shooting; krak missiles fire and the last War Walker is wrecked. Meltas fire into Eldrad's ride and take off all the weapons, krak missiles finish off the xeno skimmer tank and it's wrecked - squad passes pinning test. Remaining krak missiles take out the last Serpent in open ground and it is wrecked too.

Assault; flamer unit charges into the Farseer's ride and it goes boom - Eldar unit loses two Dire Avengers and passes morale though fails pinning. Remaining Fire Dragons are cut to ribbons by the other flamer Assault Squad. Single Priest charges the exposed Avengers who just got their ride wrecked, Avengers lose combat though pass morale, so I haven't got to worry about these Avengers supporting Eldrad.

Eldar's turn and it looks like it has all gone a bit pete tong. Only thing for John to do is shoot the melta squad with Eldrad's unit and assault the unit, I think Eldar lose combat though remain in the fight.





* Tactical Notes

Well I think the nail is in the coffin for Eldar. I've have silly dice rolls again as my dice have been on fire for the second turn running. This turn the last War Walker has gone down even though it had cover, unit of Dragons have died in combat (that's not surprising) and three Wave Serpents have gone down. Thanks to failing pinning test and having the other Avengers locked in combat, this has left John with a single unit to bring the offensive, which are now locked in combat.

Next turn I'll split the Librarian from the flamer unit by the Farseer's unit and bound that fella up to support the single Priest. The other flamer unit will rock up and assault Eldrad and co. Remaining flamer unit will batter the Farseer and Avengers and the Scouts will move out of cover to get the objective near my deployment zone.

Turn 5

Librarian splits from the flamer unit and bounces up ready to support the Priest, the flamer unit walks calmly into terrain with flamers ready. Other flamer unit bounds up to deal with Eldrad, my single wound Librarian will be in base to base with Eldrad along with the power weap Sgt.

Shooting; flamers and bolt pistols blast the Avengers, squad remains and passes morale. Devs have nothing to fire at as all armour has been destroyed.

Assault; flamer unit charges the Avengers and Farseer in the crater and chops them up into little bits. Librarian charges to support the Priest and casts unleash rage, a single Avenger remains and holds in combat. Flamer unit charges Eldrad and his mates, Eldrad takes the last wound from my Librarian, the Libby wounds Eldrad twice, who fails his armour save, I then use my force weapon and boom - Eldrad dices! I do a happy dance as I've killed that kick eldar flower power pansy.



At this point John has a single Dire Avenger left. He's haaaaaardcooooore countraaaaay and we roll for game end, mercifully it does for John as he has a single model.

Blood Angels win claiming one objective.

Summary

Blood bath! That was a very brutal game and I think the deployment in this game helps. In spearhead the Fleas get to box in the opposing army and because they can move quickly they are on the opponent turn 2. I must admit turn 3 and 4 I had extremely good luck, turn 3 started the ball rolling with several pointy ear'ed units destroyed and turn 4 just wrapped it up. Killing Eldrad was the highlight of my day

The only mistake I think I made was I forgot to combat squad a melta unit. I've done this before in objective games and it has worked nicely. I guess it doesn't matter.

John got his cover sorted for his War Walker units, though deployed them too far forward. They have a 36" - 48" range and should be sitting at the back using Wave Serpents (ones holding Dire Avengers) for cover and then the Fire Dragons out at the front. This would have meant only krak missiles could fire at the War Walkers and they would have got some more shooting time in, particularly the EMLs who only fired one before destruction.

We did discuss after game if it was better John going first. He would have got a extra turn in shooting his War Walker units and could have moved all Dragon units up and slagged another unit, the Dragons and their Wave Serpents would have acted as speed bumps and slowed me down. I think if he did this he would have probably took out 1-2 units, though if those War Walkers were held back more and all Dragons moved forward (I know one unit was pinned) the first turn then I think would have caused same amount of damage, plus with me going first those shuri cannons were in range too.

Games like this are really tough for armies like Eldar. The 3+ saves and the FNP from the sanguinary priests make the massed S6 weapons almost ineffectual unless used at ridiculous degrees. This is actually one of those rare instances where I think a unit of Howling Banshees might have helped the Eldar player. He can't out maneuver a Blood Angels jump list that gets into the center of the board and instead becomes forced to castle or have his forces be picked off one at a time (all before the addition of the devastators). A unit of banshees could sit back in a serpent slightly behind the dragons and, assuming doom support worked with the hood on the board, easily take a blood angel squad down a heck of a notch.

Overall a great battle report and a ruthlessly effective blood angel list. Keep up the good work.

Another great batrep and 2 awesome lists but it must have been hard for the eldar to even destroy a unit as even strength 6 isn't very effective against what is statistically a 2+ save.

Nightwolf829 wrote:Games like this are really tough for armies like Eldar. The 3+ saves and the FNP from the sanguinary priests make the massed S6 weapons almost ineffectual unless used at ridiculous degrees. This is actually one of those rare instances where I think a unit of Howling Banshees might have helped the Eldar player. He can't out maneuver a Blood Angels jump list that gets into the center of the board and instead becomes forced to castle or have his forces be picked off one at a time (all before the addition of the devastators). A unit of banshees could sit back in a serpent slightly behind the dragons and, assuming doom support worked with the hood on the board, easily take a blood angel squad down a heck of a notch.

Overall a great battle report and a ruthlessly effective blood angel list. Keep up the good work.

You've got it spot on. My Blood Angels have saves equal to Terminators, so basically they are jumping Termies .

I'm not a fan of Banshees, if they win combat they will get boned next turn, plus they really need to doom to help. Plus this is John's take on all comers list, so Banshees wouldn't be a option.

Grimnarsmate wrote:Another great batrep and 2 awesome lists but it must have been hard for the eldar to even destroy a unit as even strength 6 isn't very effective against what is statistically a 2+ save.

Thanks about the report, and yes the Eldar list is a tough cookie despite been a older codex.

The s6 guns wound on a 2+, which is cool, but when you've got feel no pain it's pretty tough. Weight of shots seem to bring them down though. A quick mathshammer exercise though

Two units of War Walkers fire a combined 48 shots into a single Assault Squad, both War Walkers have guide on them to help shooting. They both his 12 shots and thanks to re-rolls get another 6, that's 18 shots per unit and 36 in total. The Eldar would cause 30 wounds which the Blood Angels would fail 10 and with feel no pain rolls 5 Blood Angels would go down, that's only half a squad gone from 48 shots. Pretty tough for the Eldar.

Hey Mercer, another nice batrep.
It's alwais a pleasure reading your reps, it's just like been sitting around the table with you and your opponent drinking a fresh beer meanwhile. May I use the toilet?

Seriously.. now that you can't count how many games you done with your jumpers and mechanized BA maybe you could dare the final judgement.

Which build you think is the most competitive?

The eldar list needs the avatar. Even in MechDar the old combat statue is amazing for his cost. With all the melta in the format he is basically immune to all of your dudes ranged weapons.

Going second was also dumb, he let you neuter his walkers first turn. He could have fortunes his dragons and walled off your jumpers while sending some fire into those devs.

Either way its uphill for him. This is nothing against you but I really think army wide FNP is stupid. I remember way back when literally only the death company had it. Now its in every codex... But whatever, I use plague marines myself, I just really feel like it's on the writers not the players for really giving us a no brainer decision. "Hey look a unit with FNP, Yup I'll be spamming that." Arses ha ha.

And Toban, IMHO his fleas are better again because of the FNP and because he bleeds KP's in his mech list. Which makes it great at all three missions rather then 2.

@ Red Corsair.
Basically I agree with you. A 49 FNPed marines (excluding Scouts and Devs) that will moves 12" + a first running turn will alwais found the way to take care of the enemy line quitely soon, 2nd/3rd turn max.

However, even suffering the inevitably Kps problematic situations (I really know this kind of disturbs unfortunately), the MSU meched list work pretty well in the actual meta game.

At least until the rumored 6th ed.

I also agree about the Avatar. I never liker to have it before me. Even if my usual and prefered lists are based on massive use of ML, Lasers, and similar.

Honestly, even if I like a lot the mechanised BA list that Mercer use normally, just because I'm usual to basically similar lists with my SWs, I'm quitely fascinated by an almost full jump packers list.

You know, just to change the air a little..

Toban wrote:Hey Mercer, another nice batrep.
It's alwais a pleasure reading your reps, it's just like been sitting around the table with you and your opponent drinking a fresh beer meanwhile. May I use the toilet?

Seriously.. now that you can't count how many games you done with your jumpers and mechanized BA maybe you could dare the final judgement.

Which build you think is the most competitive?

Thanks about the report. Toilet, yet, but becareful as I had a big un in there before

Hmm, which Angel list is the best..I'd have to say at least the more fun to play with is the Red Fleas. They are a refreshing change to play over mech armies (most of my armies) this also goes the same way for my opponent. I think actually the Fleas are more fun all round.

Red Corsair wrote:The eldar list needs the avatar. Even in MechDar the old combat statue is amazing for his cost. With all the melta in the format he is basically immune to all of your dudes ranged weapons.

Going second was also dumb, he let you neuter his walkers first turn. He could have fortunes his dragons and walled off your jumpers while sending some fire into those devs.

Either way its uphill for him. This is nothing against you but I really think army wide FNP is stupid. I remember way back when literally only the death company had it. Now its in every codex... But whatever, I use plague marines myself, I just really feel like it's on the writers not the players for really giving us a no brainer decision. "Hey look a unit with FNP, Yup I'll be spamming that." Arses ha ha.

And Toban, IMHO his fleas are better again because of the FNP and because he bleeds KP's in his mech list. Which makes it great at all three missions rather then 2.

Avatar? That's a bad idea, dude. The Avatar isn't a very good unit full stop, can be easily taken down with lascannons, plasma and poison etc. Plus doesn't suit a mech list, the Avatar would be a very easy target.

I don't think going second was dumb at all. I didn't actually cause a huge amount of damage to his walkers first turn, I took out one if I remember right and that's it, hardly neutered. He would have been better putting them further back and then the Serpents. I think with that setup, going first or second would have had a huge amount of difference. The advantage of going first was when I move and run towards him the shuri cannons are in range. I do think perhaps going first would be interesting in future games, it would at least give those War Walkers a additional round of shooting.

I agree on what you say about fnp believe it or not. I think Priests effects should work for a unit only, not 6" radius. This would mean more Priests, which in turn means more kill points and different investment of points.

mercer wrote:

Avatar? That's a bad idea, dude. The Avatar isn't a very good unit full stop, can be easily taken down with lascannons, plasma and poison etc. Plus doesn't suit a mech list, the Avatar would be a very easy target.

I can only speak from my experience, my brother plays mech eldar with walkers, and he used the Avatar and took 2nd at 'Ard Boyz semis. It seems dumb but with target priorities every where, go ahead and use ever shoit in your army on a fortuned avatar. Let's be honest, it's a dated model that can easily hide, he has WS 10! and is immune to fire weapons. Trust me, with a format full of melta this guy is no joke at 150 pts. Plus he auto rallies all the small shot down fire dragon units that you normally would ignore. Basically he will absorb a stupid amount of fire which is ok because now the war walkers are safe. Or you ignore him like what usually happens and he escorts the armor and carves up units in assault..... BTW did I mention he has a melta gun in his sword? The guy is easily one of the best units in the game he is so under costed and underestimated.

I played my brother btw in first round ABoyz and it took all 15 of my missile fangs to drop him with fortune! So crazy!

The other option to me is for him to go with autarchs and full reserve, but then he loses guide which is why I dislike that route.

mercer wrote:
I agree on what you say about fnp believe it or not. I think Priests effects should work for a unit only, not 6" radius. This would mean more Priests, which in turn means more kill points and different investment of points.

Yea I just wish they would reserve some special rules for a few units so they are actually special and not the norm lol. As I said it's not the intelligent gamers fault for bringing the obvious choice

I couldn't diagree with you more I am afriad R.C. Both me and John play/played Eldar and have both used the Avatar in the past. The Avatar is slow, a easy target amongst a full mech force and can be brought down easily with a hail of lascannons, missile launcher, plasma guns, autocannons, psycannons, poison etc anything decent strength will bring the little fella down. You've pretty much made my point when you said the Avatar went down to 15 missile launchers.

The only thing I do agree on is that the Avatar is a small chap and is easy to hide.

Avatar went down to 15 missile launchers.

I think what he's trying to say is that's about 500pts of his opponent's army that isn't shooting at other units that have more value over the course of the game. IMHO, I think Mech eldar are one of the weaker Eldar builds now because of how quickly some of the newer armies can get the drop on them. They used to be able to rely on their speed...now most armies are just as fast as they are...or can literally just deploy on their doorstep. The downside is that the Mech Eldar can't absorb the punishment it receives like that because a lot of their shooting is tied to transports that are easily shaken...then further complicated when they don't have the units inside to win a war of attrition either. That's the result of this battle report. Your numbers, matching speed, and durability is what lead to the demise of this army. One thing I would have done differently if I was the Eldar player is I would have outflanked the war walkers, and reserved my entire army. Keeping your army guessing is one method that the eldar can use to exploit weakness in your army. Not knowing where the battle is coming forces your army to stay together, but only be able to chase down a portion of his army. If you split your forces, it allows him to gobble up your army bits at a time vs. trying to take them head on.

Three units of Long Fangs are 420 points, while those missile launchers aren't firing at Eldar armour that's only for a single turn. The Avatar has just asborbed missile launcher shots for a single turn and is dust. That's also my point. R.C said the Avatar can take a huge amount of punishment, yet got taken down by a single round of missile launchers.

As for mech Eldar I totally agree. In games in the past John has shrugged his shoulders when I've stunned half his vehicles and then realised what a problem he has in his following turn.

Reserving the entire army is a bad idea. There is no Aurtach to help with reserves in this list so the army would have come on piecemeal and been destroyed a whole lot easier.

Three units of Long Fangs are 420 points, while those missile launchers aren't firing at Eldar armour that's only for a single turn. The Avatar has just asborbed missile launcher shots for a single turn and is dust. That's also my point. R.C said the Avatar can take a huge amount of punishment, yet got taken down by a single round of missile launchers.

Completely disagree. Here is the probability of 15 shots at the avatar non fortuned:

0 wounds 4.63%
1 wound 15.80%
2 wounds 25.13%
3 wounds 24.75%
4 wounds 16.87%
5 wounds 8.44%
6 wounds 3.20%
7 wounds 0.93%
8 wounds 0.21%
9 wounds 0.04%
10 wounds 0.01%
11 wounds 0.00%

Here are the results with fortune up

0 wounds 27.11%
1 wound 36.97%
2 wounds 23.53%
3 wounds 9.27%
4 wounds 2.53%
5 wounds 0.51%
6 wounds 0.08%
7 wounds 0.01%
8 wounds 0.00%
9 wounds 0.00%
10 wounds 0.00%

As you can see. Most likely, he's going to live. However, it is possible that someone can fail their saves regardless. This past weekend I had a 100% failure rate with my all my cover saves and invulnerable saves...even with Fortune up. It can happen. While I don't agree that every list needs the Avatar...he is far more durable to shooting than most people think. It all depends on how your list is set up to work..and what strategies you built your list towards.

As for mech Eldar I totally agree. In games in the past John has shrugged his shoulders when I've stunned half his vehicles and then realised what a problem he has in his following turn.

Yup. It is a problem that can be mitigated somewhat by what's riding in the serpents. But is still an issue to work around.

Reserving the entire army is a bad idea. There is no Aurtach to help with reserves in this list so the army would have come on piecemeal and been destroyed a whole lot easier.

Again I completely disagree. If you are running a mech list you should be running an Autarch as your second choice anyways. Yriel is the best buy for the points. When needed, reserving allows the Eldar player to play the game on his terms not the opponents. It's about options. If he gets a match up that doesn't favor a straight up fight...reserving is always the option to take. The Eldar can better play match up and can exploit weaknesses in his opponents deployment. It also shortens the game a turn which is more advantageous to the Eldar player...one less turn of taking fire power.

I am not really following your maths as I cannot make head nor tail out of it. Instead I did my own.

15 krak missile shots, 10 shots hit, wound 8 times, Avatar fails 4 wounds = dead Avatar. Now lets add fortune, which is going to work out a Avatar down to 2 wounds.

Keeping in mind that's just Long Fangs which have fired, there's a possibility of lascannons from Razorbacks and missiles from Typhoons (common builds), though those are possibilities.

In the first case the Avatar isn't going to live. In the second example the Avatar has lost half his wounds, won't be too hard to finish the Avatar off with additional fire power or in the next turn.

Why should you be running a Autarch if doing a mech list? You only want a Autarch if doing reserves, not because it's a mech list. I am also not sure what you're disagreeing with, I said it's a bad idea to reserve the army without a Autarch, this is certainly a bad idea. While you do have the advantages spot on (opponent losing a turn of shooting and countering deployment), the army will still come on piecemeal and can be easily deal with. This is the nature of reserves.

mercer wrote:I am not really following your maths as I cannot make head nor tail out of it. Instead I did my own.

15 krak missile shots, 10 shots hit, wound 8 times, Avatar fails 4 wounds = dead Avatar. Now lets add fortune, which is going to work out a Avatar down to 2 wounds.

Keeping in mind that's just Long Fangs which have fired, there's a possibility of lascannons from Razorbacks and missiles from Typhoons (common builds), though those are possibilities.

In the first case the Avatar isn't going to live. In the second example the Avatar has lost half his wounds, won't be too hard to finish the Avatar off with additional fire power or in the next turn.

Why should you be running a Autarch if doing a mech list? You only want a Autarch if doing reserves, not because it's a mech list. I am also not sure what you're disagreeing with, I said it's a bad idea to reserve the army without a Autarch, this is certainly a bad idea. While you do have the advantages spot on (opponent losing a turn of shooting and countering deployment), the army will still come on piecemeal and can be easily deal with. This is the nature of reserves.

I think he forgot that Kraks are AP3.

Anyway, nice report but this was pretty much set in stone before the game even begun. FnP BA will massacre eldar str 6 spam. I have been bacving away from walker spam and nowadays I field 2 Holofalcons (With BLs or EMLs) and a Nightspinner. Im actually considering dropping one Falcon for a second spinner but I will have to play test.

I am not really following your maths as I cannot make head nor tail out of it. Instead I did my own.

The math I provided is the same numbers you just ran (although mine were accurately done by a computer) and the probability curves broken down into percentages.

15 krak missile shots, 10 shots hit, wound 8 times, Avatar fails 4 wounds = dead Avatar. Now lets add fortune, which is going to work out a Avatar down to 2 wounds.

See above.

Keeping in mind that's just Long Fangs which have fired, there's a possibility of lascannons from Razorbacks and missiles from Typhoons (common builds), though those are possibilities.

And that basically makes the previous poster's point. You are already shooting 420pts worth of stuff at..now you want to shoot more? More points shooting at it while the other stuff gets into position.I think that was the other guys point.

In the first case the Avatar isn't going to live. In the second example the Avatar has lost half his wounds, won't be too hard to finish the Avatar off with additional fire power or in the next turn.

And that can be fine. If it takes the pressure off of the other units...which was the point. Look, I'm not say the avatar is the answer to your friend's list. I'm just pointing out with the math that killing the avatar isn't as easy as you think...especially when it's fortuned.

Why should you be running a Autarch if doing a mech list?

Because it gives a mech list a better chance if they option to reserve. It's about options and choice.

You only want a Autarch if doing reserves, not because it's a mech list.

Not necessarily, but if you find yourself using the reserve option more he's probably something you're going to take (or in some cases should be taking)

I am also not sure what you're disagreeing with, I said it's a bad idea to reserve the army without a Autarch, this is certainly a bad idea.

This is what I'm disagreeing with. You stated it's simply a bad idea to reserve period. I disagree. Even without an Autarch, your friend had a better chance IMHO by reserving his army and outflanking what he could. This would have allowed him to choose his battles. Other than your missile base, your army has crap for shooting until you are in assault range anyways. This means that his outflankers can spread out and possibly engage your fire base from two sides. This allows his transports to keep enough distance from the rest of your force and divide your army...or you decide to hold it together like you did in the batrep..but only be able to engage a portion of his force...while you are chasing the rest down in a fruitless pursuit. Your opponent could have played keep away from you much better had he reserved. Would it have won him the game? We'll never know, but it would have been the better option than just sitting there boxed in like he was.

While you do have the advantages spot on (opponent losing a turn of shooting and countering deployment), the army will still come on piecemeal and can be easily deal with. This is the nature of reserves.

Possibly. But that's a only concern if the army he is facing has overwhelming fire power...your's doesn't...thus why reserve was a better option IMHO..regardless of an Autarch present or not. If Yriel had been in the list, some of those assaults would have gone his way..not the other way around.

I think he forgot that Kraks are AP3.

I did not forget. The math is based on his 4+ invuln save.

Actually I ran the same simulation you did (using the dummy's brute force of an Excel sheet) and got a breakdown that the Avatar dies 60% of the time to 15 Krak missiles. With fortune it is dramatically lower, something like 12-15% of the time.

The Eldar players downfall was not reserving his army... Seriously, don't know what was going through his head, but electing to go 2nd and not reserving most of his force basically handed you the win, given the list he was playing.

tedurur wrote:

I think he forgot that Kraks are AP3.

Anyway, nice report but this was pretty much set in stone before the game even begun. FnP BA will massacre eldar str 6 spam. I have been bacving away from walker spam and nowadays I field 2 Holofalcons (With BLs or EMLs) and a Nightspinner. Im actually considering dropping one Falcon for a second spinner but I will have to play test.

Maybe he did or maybe he didn't, I did consider the invulnerable though.

Thanks about the report.

I think you're right about jump infantry against Eldar. There's just too many of them, while they can deal with my Razor-Angels without too much problems.

John has been pondering about using triple Fire Prisms. They don't add as much fire power as War Walkers, though will add some blastyness.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

The math I provided is the same numbers you just ran (although mine were accurately done by a computer) and the probability curves broken down into percentages.

I did mine on the computer too, the calculator on the computer

And that basically makes the previous poster's point. You are already shooting 420pts worth of stuff at..now you want to shoot more? More points shooting at it while the other stuff gets into position.I think that was the other guys point.

It also makes my point that the Avatar will be dead before contributing anything to the game.

And that can be fine. If it takes the pressure off of the other units...which was the point. Look, I'm not say the avatar is the answer to your friend's list. I'm just pointing out with the math that killing the avatar isn't as easy as you think...especially when it's fortuned.

It will only take pressure off other units for a single turn and that will be it. I never had any doubts with fortune the Avatar would be tough to take down

Because it gives a mech list a better chance if they option to reserve. It's about options and choice.

Indeed it does give options, but it's not a very good option. Eldar force will come in piecemeal and would be easier to destroy. If you're doing reserves you want reserve control or bonus.

This is what I'm disagreeing with. You stated it's simply a bad idea to reserve period. I disagree. Even without an Autarch, your friend had a better chance IMHO by reserving his army and outflanking what he could. This would have allowed him to choose his battles. Other than your missile base, your army has crap for shooting until you are in assault range anyways. This means that his outflankers can spread out and possibly engage your fire base from two sides. This allows his transports to keep enough distance from the rest of your force and divide your army...or you decide to hold it together like you did in the batrep..but only be able to engage a portion of his force...while you are chasing the rest down in a fruitless pursuit. Your opponent could have played keep away from you much better had he reserved. Would it have won him the game? We'll never know, but it would have been the better option than just sitting there boxed in like he was.

That's the thing though, he doesn't have a better chance at all. As I've mentioned, his army will come in piecemeal with or without a Autarch and is eaiser to handle. What's easier to tackle, his entire 2k army on the board with all guns firing or just several units which come in via reserve? His outflanking is also based on good dice rolls too, luck, he definitely cannot chose his battles when outflanking as could come on the wrong flank. That's not better chances IMO. Perhaps it's also because I am not a fan of reserves full stop, unless keeping small objective scoring units in reserve.

Possibly. But that's a only concern if the army he is facing has overwhelming fire power...your's doesn't...thus why reserve was a better option IMHO..regardless of an Autarch present or not. If Yriel had been in the list, some of those assaults would have gone his way..not the other way around.

I am not sure what Yriel does, though I am pretty sure he's not a close combat monster.

chaos0xomega wrote:The Eldar players downfall was not reserving his army... Seriously, don't know what was going through his head, but electing to go 2nd and not reserving most of his force basically handed you the win, given the list he was playing.

As mentioned above, reserving his entire force with reserve bonus is a bad idea. His force will come on piecemeal and would be easier for me to pick apart. Going 1st may have given him more time to fire his guns and possibly get the Fire Dragons into range turn 1, as I'd deploy those Assault Squads as close as I cna.

I've done it plenty of times sans autarch and its never been much of an issue for me, you have to play conservatively...

then again I also play chaos daemons

It also makes my point that the Avatar will be dead before contributing anything to the game.

No it doesn't. He's contributing by being a fire magnet. If you shoot it, that means other things are living. If you ignore him, that means eventually he's going to reach something. Either way, the Eldar player profits.

It will only take pressure off other units for a single turn and that will be it. I never had any doubts with fortune the Avatar would be tough to take down

I've just demonstrated that..um no, it's not likely he won't take the pressure off for a single turn. More like at least two. That's plenty of time. Heck...even one turn is really all you need if most things flat out to the positions they need to be in. Again, with Mech Eldar, it's all about picking your battles. Lastly, I'm also not saying the Avatar is the solution either. Merely, a possibility to use..and also to demonstrate that he's more difficult to eliminate than you think. You never know...the SW player may not have LOS with all 15 missiles.

Indeed it does give options, but it's not a very good option. Eldar force will come in piecemeal and would be easier to destroy. If you're doing reserves you want reserve control or bonus.

Again, I completely disagree. Obviously, you lack experience with using reserves based on your reluctance to use them. Piecemeal isn't always a bad thing. It greatly depends on the match ups involved. In the case of your army it's actually a good idea. You simply don't have the dangerous shooting at range for him to really worry about it. If he splits his forces, it really negates the effectiveness of your army as it's main strength lies in keeping everything together. If you decide to split your forces it actually weakens your army as it's easier to chip away at it. It also puts you in the bad position of possibly over committing to a section of board. Overall, it puts the Eldar player in a better position. Otherwise, you will have to commit to a portion of his army..and most likely be chasing other parts.

That's the thing though, he doesn't have a better chance at all. As I've mentioned, his army will come in piecemeal with or without a Autarch and is eaiser to handle.

He does; as I've stated multiple times: A.)You have no idea where his forces are going to arrive. B.)You started in the center. C.)If he reserves, you have to guess where his stuff is going to commit. By reserving, he gets to see where your army is going to be...and most importantly...where he can exploit your 2 turns of moving. He can divide his forces to different sections of the table...and you can't chase them all. While you do have jumpers...he still has the option of moving faster than you. That means to try and keep pace, you will be running instead of shooting at times. It also eliminates 2 turns of enemy shooting and shortens the game. All of which plays into his hands.

What's easier to tackle, his entire 2k army on the board with all guns firing or just several units which come in via reserve?

We've already established that he is at a disadvantage with his strength 6 shooting against your army. For him to gain an upper hand in that situation, he has to rely on position, movement, and exploiting any errors in your movement. The mission was a simple capture and control. He easily can win the mission just by outmaneuvering your army. He has the tools to do it, but poor deployment, poor planning doomed his chances. While I agree that the match up is rough...given the mission, deployment, and the army he's facing, he had a great chance to win.

His outflanking is also based on good dice rolls too, luck, he definitely cannot chose his battles when outflanking as could come on the wrong flank.

LOL. In regards to this game, it doesn't matter which edge he's coming from. The positioning of your firebase was near the center line of the table if you were to cut it in half. That means his walkers most likely have reach to your firebase from both sides of the short board edge...as the scatter lasers have a 42" reach, and his missile walkers have a 54" reach.

That's not better chances IMO. Perhaps it's also because I am not a fan of reserves full stop, unless keeping small objective scoring units in reserve.

Which to me indicates your lack of experience with reserve strategies. It's not a big deal if it isn't your cup of tea. But you can't dismiss it as a viable strategy that a good player can use..and use well when the situation calls for it. In this situation, it was the better option.

I am not sure what Yriel does, though I am pretty sure he's not a close combat monster.

Yriel is a combat monster for his points. Advantages: He's an Autarch (which helps if you tend to use reserves a lot), His weapon always wounds on a 2+ and ignores saves, WS6, Init7, Eye of Wrath for crowd control. Paired with Eldrad, he's pimp.

As mentioned above, reserving his entire force with reserve bonus is a bad idea. His force will come on piecemeal and would be easier for me to pick apart.

No it isn't. You went first. He goes second. He sees where your army is...you have no idea where his army is going to end up. You have nothing to shoot at for two turns If he can maneuver away from your assault marines all he has to deal with is 3 small dev squads. The scouts are a non factor until the late game. Again, your army simply doesn't have enough long range fire power to threaten his army provided he's coy enough to maneuver around your assault marines.

Going 1st may have given him more time to fire his guns and possibly get the Fire Dragons into range turn 1, as I'd deploy those Assault Squads as close as I can.

True, but he chose not to go first. I think going second was a better idea overall, but he didn't capitalize on that choice. With the way he deployed he may as well have gone first. Otherwise, going second was the better option. Cheating your army out of 2 turns of shooting is far better than going first and allowing himself to get boxed into a corner. When that happened I'm surprised he didn't
use judicious use of tank shocks. Find the angles to avoid the melta guy, or tank shock the units that don't have them. Bailing was a good option at that point. Like I said, it seems like he tried to take you up in a straight fight and got beat for it.



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chaos0xomega wrote:I've done it plenty of times sans autarch and its never been much of an issue for me, you have to play conservatively...

then again I also play chaos daemons

+1 Yup. Playing reserves requires a different approach to the game. An approach people seldom use. But if you are good at it, you can really press an advantage in a bad matchup.

You cannot compare a Chaos Daemons army playing with reserves to a standard army w/o any reserves special rules going all reserves.

Daemons are costed to reflect the nature of their deployment, they automatically get half the army on Turn 1 (allowing them to put down 3/4 of the army statistically on Turn 2) and have been in general designed to function from reserves.

I am not saying going all reserves is always a bad idea, but arguing for it based on a Daemon (or drop pod) army is a fallacy.

I am not saying going all reserves is always a bad idea, but arguing for it based on a Daemon (or drop pod) army is a fallacy.

I think his intention wasn't a comparison based on how the reserves work for daemons...but how one approaches playing reserves in general. Lot's of risk management is involved in both cases.

I think in this case CaptKaruthors is I am going to agree to disagree as we are going around in circles and both sticking to our guns. I think we both present some interesting things.

mercer wrote:I think in this case CaptKaruthors is I am going to agree to disagree as we are going around in circles and both sticking to our guns. I think we both present some interesting things.

Fair enough

the slippery little dick fairy ain't going anywhere now

We wouldn't want that!

Great report guys!

I think Mercer seems to be more of a go-for-the-throat, offensive-type of player. Based on the Dark Eldar and Blood Angels lists he plays. I think the Avatar could be useful if someone abused LoS blocking terrain. And let's get real, on what board and with what terrain are 15 Long Fangs all seeing the same target? I played Wolves for a long time and Fangs can't easily draw LoS to small MC's. In fact most long-range shooting (Psyflemen, Riflemen, Hydras, Vendettas, Devastators) is fairly slow and therefore cannot easily get a large range of sight. The Avatar could act as a fairly nice counter-assault. I don't understand why the Eldar player chose to go second if he wasn't planning on reserving. Out-flanking war walkers are a pain to deal with because they can pick off exposed Devastators and what not. Plus if the Serpent's come in from reserve he can just boost to get cover and react quickly to flanks.

Ha, you couldn't be further from than truth than going for the throat. My lists are tough, though I am not a tough player. I let people correct their mistakes if needed. If a opponent is beaten then I leave it as that, no need to finish them off and table them or going for the throat.

mercer wrote:Ha, you couldn't be further from than truth than going for the throat. My lists are tough, though I am not a tough player. I let people correct their mistakes if needed. If a opponent is beaten then I leave it as that, no need to finish them off and table them or going for the throat.

A matter of definitions. What I always love about your batreps is that you build lists to win and you don't apologize for it. Some will call that go-for-the-throat, but I see that as a compliment.

15 crack missiles shooting on a squad of War Walkers:
10 hits; 1,67 glance, 6,67 penetrate.
That's an average of:
1,56 vehicles shaken
1,32 vehicles stunned
1,32 weapons destroyed
3,67 vehicles destroyed

That's a very high probability of an entire squadron of War Walkers destroyed where it's a low probability of destroying the Avatar. The War Walkers cost more.
Just putting things into perspective.

Thanks for the battle report on such a slow day at work!