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Just had this happen in a game.

If a vehicles sponsoon arc can see less then 50% of a unit its firing at (and the vehicles haul is in the way of it firing further), does that unit get cover?

My opponent cited "intervening models" on p, 21 and 22.

Just want to clear things up, thanks.

yes.

You point the gun in the direction you want to fire (if it is movable), then check LOS along the gun barrel. If it can see less than 50%, they get cover.

Models in the same unit do not block LOS. Unless the vehicle rules state otherwise I'd say no.

I think the firing arcs work as the los of the gun for this one, since models can be in cover from some of the guns on a vehicle but not others due then I think it's fine.

My arguement was that the vehicle block sight wasnt an issue since its all based on the arc.

Simply, yes. You cannot shoot through your hull and you still have cover saves if they are obscured.

skarousis wrote:My arguement was that the vehicle block sight wasnt an issue since its all based on the arc.

What vehicle was it? As long as it is in the arc, 180 for sponsons, don't bother about the decorative elements of the vehicle.

If the hull you speak of is the vehicle with the sponsons, they do not provide cover. What it can do is limit the firing arc of the weapon. Look in the brb about vehicle firing arcs (don't have it around right now), but if the gun can't see its target, it can't fire on it. Plain and simple.

jgehunter wrote:What vehicle was it? As long as it is in the arc, 180 for sponsons, don't bother about the decorative elements of the vehicle.

Sponsons are rarely 180 degrees, check page 59. I agree with ignoring decorative elements, but the hull really does get in the way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:If the hull you speak of is the vehicle with the sponsons, they do not provide cover. What it can do is limit the firing arc of the weapon. Look in the brb about vehicle firing arcs (don't have it around right now), but if the gun can't see its target, it can't fire on it. Plain and simple.

True, but if you can only draw LOS to less than half the unit (making the rest obscured), they can claim cover.

In my case it was a Landraider. A unit was in front of the LR. The LR attempted to fire with both sponsoons, in each weapons firing arc (found in the BRB) were only a few of the squads units (3 of 20 and 2 of 20). I claimed cover, he said i didn't receive it.

Basically it comes down to, if less then 50% of a unit is in a firing arc, do you get cover?

skarousis wrote:In my case it was a Landraider. A unit was in front of the LR. The LR attempted to fire with both sponsoons, in each weapons firing arc (found in the BRB) were only a few of the squads units (3 of 20 and 2 of 20). I claimed cover, he said i didn't receive it.

Basically it comes down to, if less then 50% of a unit is in a firing arc, do you get cover?

Yes, if you can't draw LOS to at least half of them they get cover.

Then i was cheated out of 8 genestealers...awesome.

BRB page 21 wrote:What Counts as Cover?
Cover is basically anything that is hiding a target or protecting it from incoming shots.

If you can't see 50% of the squad, they get a cover save.

skarousis wrote:Then i was cheated out of 8 genestealers...awesome.

What kind of Sponson weapons were on that land raider that you lost 8 Genestealers?

AKA What variant of Land Raider was it?

It'd have to be a Crusader.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:It'd have to be a Crusader.

It actually sounds like it was a redeemer. That is why it is important to know what weapons the sponsons had.

If it was a Redeemer we wouldn't be talking cover saves though...

SlaveToDorkness wrote:If it was a Redeemer we wouldn't be talking cover saves though...

That was exactly my point. If it was a redeemer the OP's opponent was correct in disallowing cover saves.

So it is important to know what kind of Land Raider was firing at the Genestealers.

Crusader Hurricane Bolters.

The FAQ has clarified that a vehicle can't draw LOS through itself, so the vehicle's own hull could provide cover. If a unit is only partially in your firing arc, but not behind cover of any kind, that will not give any kind of cover save.

Here is the exact scenario:



Thoughts on it now?

Looks like cover from the right sponson, no cover from the left.

If the Assault Cannons were firing as well you'd get no cover. If not, they would. Since nothing has cover from the Assault Cannon.

The sponsoon on the left can only see 4 of the 15 genestealers without being granted cover correct? (p. 21 "when are models in cover" states that if any part of the target models body is obscured then it has cover). So wouldn't both sponsoons be granting cover? and since 2 of the 3 weapons being fired are granting cover wouldn't i receive it?

Looks like about 4/15 are visable from the left sponson. I take it the fluff on the left is terrain, so it's the models between the orange lines that are visable.

So if im reading the diagram right it should be cover from both sponsons.

Edit: So if firing all three weapons (x2 sponsons, and assault cannon), as the unit gets cover from 2/3 weapons sysems, the unit would gain cover saves from ALL weapons (including the assault cannon).

Eh I don't think so, the rules as I read say that you can have cover saves on some of the weapons on a vehicle but not others.

pg 58
"If the target unit happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit."

It's just like a squad firing a flamer, a heavy bolter and a plasma pistol at a squad of orcs in cover.
The flamer gives no saves (I think that a boy has a 5+), plasma gun and bolters get cover saves.

Is the fluff on the left a wrecked vehicle or terrain or what?

liturgies of blood wrote:Eh I don't think so, the rules as I read say that you can have cover saves on some of the weapons on a vehicle but not others.

pg 58
"If the target unit happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit."

"...each firing weapon on the vehicle was a seperate firing model in a normal unit."

So you treat a Land Raider with 3 weapons systems as a unit of three models.

Less than 50% of the firing models can see less than 50% of the target.

One model has clear LOS, the other two are obscured. All weapons are still fired as a single unit, so it's cover saves for all, or cover saves for none. You cant get saves for some (unless the weapon ignores cover of course).

rigeld2 wrote:Is the fluff on the left a wrecked vehicle or terrain or what?

That would be a wrecked landspeeder.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

grendel083 wrote:

liturgies of blood wrote:Eh I don't think so, the rules as I read say that you can have cover saves on some of the weapons on a vehicle but not others.

pg 58
"If the target unit happens to be in cover from only some of the vehicle’s weapons, then work out if the target gets cover saves exactly as if each firing weapon on the vehicle was a separate firing model in a normal unit."

"...each firing weapon on the vehicle was a seperate firing model in a normal unit."

So you treat a Land Raider with 3 weapons systems as a unit of three models.

Less than 50% of the firing models can see less than 50% of the target.

One model has clear LOS, the other two are obscured. All weapons are still fired as a single unit, so it's cover saves for all, or cover saves for none. You cant get saves for some (unless the weapon ignores cover of course).

Thats how I read it as well. I don't see an argument otherwise.

While i have you folks here, do jump infantry take dangerous terrain tests for Assaulting through difficult terrain? This was another arguement I had where i said no, since in the assaulting part of the Jump infantry section mentions nothing about dangerous terrain, just that you move as normal infantry (while the movement part of jump infantry specifically mentions that difficult is treated as dangerous).

Right no I am wrong. Sorry, I don't know how I missed out the in a unit bit at the end.

IF the guy didn't fire the right sponson though he would have given no cover saves as I see the board but I think you need to be there to know for sure.

You only take dangerous terrain tests for moving through difficult terrain. Running and assaulting is fine, though Jet packs like tau crisis suits may require one for an assault movement that doesn't bring them into cc.