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what if instead of horus, gulliman was leading the heresy with ALL of his legion and leading the other traitor legions to assualt terra, for the record horus and his legion was loyal in this instance do you think the heresy would of suceeded in destroying the imperium?

GW has a concept like this that I've heard of before, the Dornian Heresy or whatever.

The end result would have been the same in any regard. Horus was the mightiest, most capable, and most beloved Primarch. A reason the Heresy is so tragic is because the greatest in the Imperium after the Emperor fell to Chaos.

Guilliman would never have reached Terra; loyal Horus would never let anyone get close to the Imperial Capital and Human Homeworld - especially when you consider that he wasn't just most favored, he was actually the Emperor's protege, spending decades at the Emperor's side before the next Primarch was found; he'd never let a traitor get in range of his father. And assuming Magnus remained loyal - he would have helped Horus by making sure no traitor forces could travel through the warp past the Sons of Horus blockade.

This would probably result from the following factors:
1) Nikaea banned sorcery but not psychic abilities; Magnus did not withdraw his legion from the Great Crusade, and accompanied the Emperor back to Terra to work on the Imperial Webway
2) Horus was given a seat on the Council of Terra
3) Rogal Dorn and Perturabo were reconciled by the Emperor/Horus by having them work together to consolidate compliant territory by building a network of fortresses across the galaxy; such fortresses would be impregnable, built using a combination of Dorn's experience in fortification and Perturabo's experience in siege craft.

So:
Loyalists
Lion el'Jonson, Jaghatai Khan, Rogal Dorn, Magnus the Red, Sanguinius, Perturabo, Ferrus Manus, Horus, Vulkan, Corax

Traitor
Fulgrim, Lorgar, Leman Russ (over the Emperor's decision to favor Magnus at Nikaea), Angron, Mortarion, Roboutte Guilliman, Conrad Kurze, Alpharius Omegon

Event Timeline
1) The Burning of Prospero
- Space Wolves launch surprise attack on Prospero; one Fellowship destroyed along with the Thousand Sons homeworld. Wolves declared traitor; distracting Imperials from growing traitor unification under Guilliman. Horus sends Thousand Sons with Sons of Horus support to pursue Space Wolves, reducing overall strength of two legions
2) Virus Bombing of Istvaan III and Flight of the Eisenstein or it's equivalent
- Guilliman, Angron, and Mortarion purge loyalists - survivors escape and warn the Emperor; Horus dispatches a task force to supress
rebellion
3) Istvaan V Drop-Site Massacre or it's equivalent
- Alpharius Omegon draw loyalists into trap and destroys them - Horus sets up blockade at Sol System and recalls Thousand Sons and Sons of Horus to Terra to support White Scars and Blood Angels; civil war erupts across the galaxy.
4) Siege of Terra
- traitor forces delayed while Magnus uses his powers from the Golden Throne to distort warp currents and interfere with Chaos Powers; the Emperor breaks into the Webway and reinforces the Dark Angels by sending Custodes to assist against Space Wolves. Traitor forces take heavy losses breaking through blockade while traitor reinforcements held down by Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors at the new Imperial Fortresses - Terran defenses hold until Thousand Sons and Sons of Horus arrive to reinforce. Traitors retreat.
5) Traitor Collapse
- attacking through the Webway, traitor forces are destroyed or forced to retreat to the Eye of Terror; Guilliman murdered by Lorgar and
Alpharius Omegon - Ultramarines betrayed and destroyed by Word Bearers and Alpha Legion. Word Bearers lead traitor retreat to Eye; unable to escape as new Imperial technologies and psychic advancements ensure that even with Chaos support, they fall behind - Chaos is already critically weakened by reinforced and heavily-enforced acceptance of the Imperial Truth.

Deaths:
Lion el'Jonson - slain by Leman Russ
Ferrus Manus - slain by Fulgrim
Vulkan - slain by Mortarion at Istvaan V
Corax - slain by Angron at Istvaan V
Fulgrim - banished by Magnus the Red
Leman Russ - slain by Lion el'Jonson
Angron - banished by Horus
Roboutte Guilliman - betrayed and murdered by Lorgar and Alpharius Omegon
Conrad Kurze - slain by the Emperor in a failed Night Lord ambush
Alpharius Omegon - unknown brother slain by Guilliman; uncomfirmed

Since this is speculation rather than straight fluff discussion I shall move it to the General Discussion forum.

I guess i should of been more specific I meant what if instead of horus, gulliman was leading the traitor forces during the heresy:

Loyalist:
Iron Hands
Imperial Fists
Raven guard
Blood Angels
Salamanders
Space wolves
Dark Angels
Sons Of horus
White Scars

Traitors:
Ultramarines
World Eaters
Word Bearers
Death Guard
Emporers Children
Iron Warriors
Thousand Sons
Alpha legion
Night lords

The Heresy wouldn't have happened. Seriously, Guilliman and Alpharius hated each other, there's no way that Alpharius would get into the Heresy with Guilliman in charge even if the Alphas genuinely turned against the Imperium. With both Ferrus and Horus on the Emperor's side, Fulgrim wouldn't have fallen either. The bad blood between Guilliman and Lorgar would have meant that the Word Bearers wouldn't help the Ultramarines. Guilliman wan't devious enough to change Russ' orders, so Magnus would have just gone to Terra and the Thousand Sons would likely have remained loyal, or he mightn't have even sent the message that got him into trouble.

That leaves the Ultramarines, World Eaters, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and Night Lords against everyone else, while the Alpha Legion troll the **** out of them.

Durza wrote:The Heresy wouldn't have happened. Seriously, Guilliman and Alpharius hated each other, there's no way that Alpharius would get into the Heresy with Guilliman in charge even if the Alphas genuinely turned against the Imperium. With both Ferrus and Horus on the Emperor's side, Fulgrim wouldn't have fallen either. The bad blood between Guilliman and Lorgar would have meant that the Word Bearers wouldn't help the Ultramarines. Guilliman wan't devious enough to change Russ' orders, so Magnus would have just gone to Terra and the Thousand Sons would likely have remained loyal, or he mightn't have even sent the message that got him into trouble.

That leaves the Ultramarines, World Eaters, Death Guard, Iron Warriors and Night Lords against everyone else, while the Alpha Legion troll the **** out of them.

Which is why in my post Lorgar and Alpharius Omegon murdered Guilliman and butchered his legion after they were forced to retreat from Terra. In the same post, Russ turns against the Emperor because the Emperor compromised in Magnus' favor at Nikaea.

Magnus and Fulgrim are troublesome though; Magnus is arguably 'marked' by Tzeentch over his eye, although the Emperor should be able to undo it before allowing Magnus to work with him on the Imperial Webway Project. That daemon sword of Fulgrim is more troublesome though; I'm not sure if even Ferrus Manus and loyal Horus can break the daemon's sway over Fulgrim's mind - not to mention Slaaneshi contamination is more difficult to remove/contain.

How does Russ kill Lion? I mean when they fight it looks quite clear that they are quite on par with each other, maybe with the Lion being a tad better. Plus I don't think the relationship between wolfs and lions is one of hate, it's more like a competition. Deep inside, I know they loved each other.

jgehunter wrote:How does Russ kill Lion? I mean when they fight it looks quite clear that they are quite on par with each other, maybe with the Lion being a tad better. Plus I don't think the relationship between wolfs and lions is one of hate, it's more like a competition. Deep inside, I know they loved each other.

They killed each other. I see it like this: Lion initially met Russ to find out why he burned Prospero without orders from either Horus or the Emperor, acting on his hatred for Magnus. Russ responds that despite everything he's done for the Emperor, the Emperor considers Magnus as Russ' equal, which Russ simply cannot accept. He offers Lion a chance to join them, saying they will show Magnus, the Emperor, and Horus what true worth and power is, but Lion refuses. Russ then says they are enemies from then on, which Lion sadly agrees to. They leave the meeting as brothers for the last time. This results in neither the Wolves or the Angels from supporting either Guilliman or Horus, until the Emperor send Custodes via the Webway to break the deadlock. Lion continues to pursue Russ, and they slay each other on Fenris at the height of the Imperial assault. Lion manages to mortally wound Russ first, but before dying, Russ stabs his corrupted blade into Lion, who dies from the Chaos energies bleeding from the sword.

Are we assuming that Luther isn't consumed by jealousy and leads the Fallen against the Lion?

IGdude354 wrote:Are we assuming that Luther isn't consumed by jealousy and leads the Fallen against the Lion?

Maybe in this incarnation he is filled with goodness, and the Lion turns to chaos and Luther remains loyal, or maybe that is how it really was in the current incarnation...

IGdude354 wrote:Are we assuming that Luther isn't consumed by jealousy and leads the Fallen against the Lion?

Didn't consider that. Alright then, how about this: the Dark Angels are fresh from the pyrrhic Imperial victory at Fenris, return to their homeworld to bury the Lion, only to discover their home sector is in flames, and Luther and the Fallen rampaging. Sons of Horus arrive to support the Dark Angels, but they refuse assistance and fight Luther on their own. Luther however, almost destroys the Dark Angels along with the Fallen, forcing the Warmaster to step in personally to prevent a depleted loyal legion from getting destroyed. Luther is slain (and mortally wounds) First Captain Abaddon - most of the Fallen are destroyed, but the Sons of Horus fail to stop the survivors from escaping into the Eye and joining the Word Bearers Legion.

jgehunter wrote:

IGdude354 wrote:Are we assuming that Luther isn't consumed by jealousy and leads the Fallen against the Lion?

Maybe in this incarnation he is filled with goodness, and the Lion turns to chaos and Luther remains loyal, or maybe that is how it really was in the current incarnation...

Doubt it; it the short story Savage Weapons, Lion is clearly loyal, even going so far as to stab Kurze by surprise to make his point, saying that he doesn't care whether or not history questions his decision not to go to Terra. Lion knows that neither the warp nor the Night Lords will allow the Dark Angels to head to Terra, he also concedes that while he wants to go to Terra and join the defense, he knows that victory at Terra is meaningless if the rest of the Imperium is in ashes. He also doesn't know about Luther's fall, smirking in disdain when Kurze mentions it and that the Warmaster knows about it. Apparently, at the end he seems to know something about Guilliman and the fledgling Codex Astartes.

Harriticus wrote:GW has a concept like this that I've heard of before, the Dornian Heresy or whatever.

Not GW, it was Bolter and Chainsword.

Dornian Heresy, Roboute goes Rogue in there and totally changes the whole thing by building the New Imperium.

Dornian Heresy is actually superbly written and actually not a mirror image of the Horus Heresy at all . So many clever idea's, and so many far reaching decisions. I would recommend, not reading this if you are easily confused because it's an complete mind feth and will confuse you between Canon and the this alternative Canon.

New Order

A nice idea I had, was to re-write it so that the Emperor ascends to God-hood in a pact with the Chaos Gods, as the 5th Chaos God. The god of despair, oppressive dictator and vengeful in the extreme. Magnus learns of his fathers betrayal of Mankind, and leads the Primarchs on a War against all 5 Chaos Gods (Terra is destroyed, billions are sacraficed as are most of the Imperial Fists and becomes a daemon world). Prospero becomes seat of the Council of Eighteen.

The Emperor now opens and allows the other chaos gods to use the Webway to invade places all over the galactic plane the Eldar craftworlds and ancient sites. Eldar, Dark Eldar and exodites combine to fight off the hordes of Slaanesh pouring through the webway. The Eldar petition the Primarchs for assistance and the Great Angel Sanguinius leads his Legion to Aid the Eldar, leaving a Proxy, RALDERON, on the council of 18.

The Primarchs form the Council of Eighteen, or "The Great Conclave". All decisions are made by voting and a great "Human Charter" is conceived by Lorgar and signed by all, to protects the rights and freedoms of all humans and abhumans. Space Wolves refuse to serve under the 3 great Consuls (Horus, Guilliman & Dorn) and vow to go hunt to bring their errant Father to justice, flying off to the Eye. The rest of the Primarchs work under the 3 Great Consuls, and the Great Crusade continues onwards.

To move away from the Daemon world of Terra, the Mechanicum relocates to Medusa, and in the move the Void Dragon is released accidentally on Mars. The SOL system is destroyed and the highly developed central galactic region is ripped apart by Necrons and Daemons. On Medusa, The "Pact of Iron" is made between Perturabo, Ferrus and the mechanicum. Huge leaps forward in technology. and also from Xeno-tech supplied by Lorgar.

Alpha Omega form an galactic spanning intelligence machine and it is named the Inquisition recruiting the brightest and best of humanity.

Ultramar becomes a huge region and the power house of the new order, Magnus builds a new decentralized astronomican by creating a network of several smaller beacons cloning himself, genetically and psychic manipulating them in development. Many clones die and he resigns to the fact that he must clone his own DNA endlessly to feed the astronomican's needs. He is constantly attacked and harrassed by the Emperors conciousness in the Warp which seeks to break his son. Magnus suffers unspeakable torment and ages rapidly becoming a husk of a Primarch as his soul diminishes day by day.

The council votes to build more Legions, from their own and each primarch should become a Consul with 3 or more Legions in his own right in the fullness of time. but the need for a Triumvirate of Command makes sense to direct the order in military affairs, with Roboute, Horus and Dorn the natural leaders of the wider war effort. Corax declares himself already a Consul, after admitting he has the equivalent of 4 Legions hidden from view from his own genetic manipulations. This shock schism's the Council as Horus, Guilliman and Dorn were voted to be the ultimate Military leaders. Corax challenges this and unsettles the status quo with the more junior primarchs. Many clamour for the disolution of these rapidly produced Legions, Guilliman and Dorn accuse Corax of being dishonourable and dishonest with a lack of integrity and has inherited the worst elements of their father. Horus placates all parties by ordering the Raven Guard into immediate assault on Imperial Worlds with Corax as Commander Plenipotentiary until the council see's fit to vote on his ascendancy to Consul status.

Dorn almost loses his mind after protecting the emperor and losing most of his Legion. However he puts his immense pride to one side, for he realises that has a greaterpart to play and is a General/ Warmaster, not just a Legion Commander, and Sigismund takes command of the surviving fists and vows to atone and forms the Black Templars. Lorgar is venerated as he was proved correct, but is broken by the fact that the Emperor betrayed mankind.

Lorgar makes the "Proclaimation of Secular Truth", he demands that the Imperium is wiped clean, the very name venerates the one who betrayed mankind. He devotes himself to purity of thought and mind and deed. He later discovers the Tau and extends friendship, impressed by their lack of religion and psychic ability and gives protection to this primitive but rapidly developing group . He splits his Legion into two, and forms the GREY KNIGHTS. The Legion to be the ultimate Bulwark against chaos, Pure of Mind, Heart and Deed. He isolates the Pariah gene in the Tau, the ultimate anathema to warp power and it is worked in the Gene-seed of the Grey Knights, so that standing in their pressence is painful to daemons and the vile stuff of the warp cannot touch them

Under this huge change over 10 years the Imperium falls apart, Primarchs fight Imperial Forces who will not renounce the fallen emperor and untold billions die as the New Order goes through it's birthing pains.

Konrad Kurse, creates an Assassination Ordo to sew fear and dissent within the enemies of the New Order. This is sanctioned by the Council and is Commanded by them. The Homo-astartes-Sapiens become the man rulers of the New Order of man and great fear and consternation is brought forth as the common man is forgotten. The forced dissolution of many imperial institutions starts to take it's toll and Billions die, defending institutions such as the Adeptus Arbites and the newly formed Imperial church that Lorgar mistakenly started. Lorgar destroys these Heretical churches and preaches the Secular creed of humanity.

It is almost complete when, the Forces of five Chaos powers Undivided pour forth from the eye and the New Order falls apart under the relentless onslaught, Imperial forces side with the fallen Emperor and the Council of eighteen stand alone. The Daemon Princes of the Custodes, now know as the "Bane of Life" lead huge armies of Proto-Marines built by the Fallen Emperor using his knowledge of arcane science. The New Order faces extinction. In the 32nd Millenium, the New Order faces eradication and Human life is worthless as Gods and Demi-gods fight for the right to protect or to enslave the Human Race.

Sounds like it would be interesting.


In my view about an alternate Heresy though, the Lion would be the arch-betrayer, with Luther becoming his Abaddon. The four gods would get Guilliman for Khorne, Fulgrim for Slaanesh (to an extent), Omegon for Tzeentch and Curze for Nurgle. The Fists, Raven Guard, Salamanders and White Scars would also turn traitor.

Interesting you should say that Durza. Read this one...Not quite Luther as Abaddon, but after the popularity of this re-written heresy maybe another will be written.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=226986

Like the Jonson Heresy, the Ward heresy has already been done (in real life - expunging the Iron Hands from Codex Space marines)

It's a pity that the Dornian Heresy seems to have died. I was hoping for a definite answer on Fulgrim...

Though the Ward Heresy was actually the slow but steady corruption of the Grey Knights. It started with giving a daemon weapon to one of them despite their better judgement, and then before you knew what was going on, Sisters were being maimed and puns were everywhere.

mwnciboo wrote:

Like the Jonson Heresy, the Ward heresy has already been done (in real life - expunging the Iron Hands from Codex Space marines)

Not sure how you get that. The 4th Edition Space Marine Codex had only Shrike and Lysander as non-UM characters. It also had loads of UM-specific units like Calgar's honour guard and Nid War Veterans. It's army list had UM symbols on every single picture. Mat Ward toned down the Ultramarine-elements considerably for the 5th Edition Codex and significantly expanded the non-UM range of chapters covered. Granted, it'd didn't really extend to the Iron Hands. Still, I dare you pick up one Space Marine Codex before 5th that has written more stuff on IH (and nearly half as much material on Salamanders, White Scars, Crimson Fists, you name it).

Okay I put my hands up. He could have done alot more, dedicated transports for scouts (Landspeeder storm), and toned down the UM alot.

A special Character for all of the original Legions. Out of interest the Chapter that won the Feast of Blades the most/consecutively "Iron knights" IIRC get's more of a mention that a Original Legion.

Or the Emperor decides to not mess up (or something) and somehow prevents the Primarchs from being scattered throughout the galaxy, and therefore preventing the chaotic corruption that seeped into the capsusles...