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First of all please forgive me if this ended up in the wrong forum as I was split between the general and background ones.

So on topic. I have read numerous people saying how they dislike these novels describing the biggest betrayal in iom history.
While I can agree to that some of them are poorly written I personally like how they freshen up on that era and on some of the lesser known legions.
I have recently read Horus heresy: complete visions and it seems to support the events described in the HH series.
Some I believe have complained that the primarchs are too humanely flawed, though personally I like that side of the characters. Just because they are transhuman doesn't mean that they are outbid a human soul and mentality.

Anyways why do people dislike this books?

Please excuse my English, it isn't my first language.

I've only read a few myself, but in general I have enjoyed them, they really flesh out the background of the Heresy that wasn't very well explored before.

Although yes, there have been some disappointing ones that have put me off a little.

The Primarchs have always had their flaws though, even before the Horus Heresy series, when the only information on them was in Index Astartes articles or in a few other limited sources. It's good that the series in general, where books are in-depth about the Primarchs, seems to be exploring these flaws.

becuase people fancy themselves critics, alot of people seem to foget that some books are like some films, no brainers, just switch off and watch lol

on the whole they are very good, they change the back story alot, but having been in this since 1st, that happens alot anyway so meh

From what I understand, most people say that the Horus Heresy books are really good...

I like all of them, even the ones that are regarded as being pretty bad, like Formosa says, some you just need to sit back and take them as the Bolter Porn that they are.

The problem that I do have with some of them are the errors and inconsistencies, although you are going to have these happen when numerous authors write for a series. The issue is when a writer who has written numerous books in the series can't seem to get a course of events correct.

I'm looking at you Mr McNeill!

My biggest issue with them is that the writers seem to be exploring new ground. They are all very good at writing action, and 40K action in particular, but the Horus Heresy novels require a little bit more than that.

The fall of a person to Chaos must, at the end of the day, be about falling to temptation. And to really get that across, a writer must really put us in the head of the characters, to let us empathise with them to the point where we can almost sympathise with their decision.

And thats where I felt the writing fell down. It's a step outside the expertise of the authors, and it showed.

Having said that, I have enjoyed the novels so far, but more because I'm fascinated with the source material then because the books themselves were great.

Kaldor wrote:My biggest issue with them is that the writers seem to be exploring new ground. They are all very good at writing action, and 40K action in particular, but the Horus Heresy novels require a little bit more than that.

They couldn't write a Horus Heresy series without exploring new ground, as there isn't enough established fluff to write a whole series on the Heresy without expanding into the unknown. We know a fair bit about what happened at certain events but nothing has ever been given in great detail. Marines died on Istvaan V, the Eisenstein got away etc etc but how, who, what has never really be revealed.

I welcome that in the series, I just hope that they stick to what already as been established to a fairly strict degree, which isn't the case in some examples.

Formosa wrote:becuase people fancy themselves critics, alot of people seem to foget that some books are like some films, no brainers, just switch off and watch lol

on the whole they are very good, they change the back story alot, but having been in this since 1st, that happens alot anyway so meh

I think this is pretty much right. They aren't great books on the whole, but if you just want to wswitch your brain off and enjoy some stuff getting blown up, they're good for that. Sometimes I wish they did a better job on the characterization and weren't so heavy into the war porn, but I guess I'll keep reading them. They have their own B-movie charm.


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I just wish they would let these primarchs take some personal responsibility for their actions. Fulgrim and Horus both get tricked by demon weapons. Boring. Lorgar says "feth the emperor I'm running gak now." That's more like it.

Not dislike, just disinterest. It's basically a bunch of marines going after a bunch of marines.

GreatGunz wrote:Fulgrim and Horus both get tricked by demon weapons. Boring. Lorgar says "feth the emperor I'm running gak now." That's more like it.

Yup, the old way was the best, a talking sword is dum if you ask me.

Horus wasn't tricked by a weapon he, was tricked by his best buddy impersonator, which you know, should have been a bit suspicious from the start seeing as he was dead

Ha ha, fooled you!
Oh Erebus, you trickster you

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kaldor wrote:My biggest issue with them is that the writers seem to be exploring new ground. They are all very good at writing action, and 40K action in particular, but the Horus Heresy novels require a little bit more than that.

They couldn't write a Horus Heresy series without exploring new ground, as there isn't enough established fluff to write a whole series on the Heresy without expanding into the unknown. We know a fair bit about what happened at certain events but nothing has ever been given in great detail. Marines died on Istvaan V, the Eisenstein got away etc etc but how, who, what has never really be revealed.

I welcome that in the series, I just hope that they stick to what already as been established to a fairly strict degree, which isn't the case in some examples.

I think you misunderstood. Warporn is warporn, whether it's set in 40K, 30K, Vietnam or the Napoleeonics. But the HH novels require more than simple warporn, and I that is the new ground I'm referring to.

Kaldor wrote:
I think you misunderstood. Warporn is warporn, whether it's set in 40K, 30K, Vietnam or the Napoleeonics. But the HH novels require more than simple warporn, and I that is the new ground I'm referring to.

Why? A good battle is a good battle, you could have a whole book just on Marines being killed at the Dropsite Massacre without getting too 'deep' and it would still be covering new ground.

I catch your meaning though.

Melissia wrote:Not dislike, just disinterest. It's basically a bunch of marines going after a bunch of marines.

I concur.

I really like the series. It's all about what you expect from a book (just like with movies).

I was rather disappointed with Shakespeare's Hamlet, for example, because I expected more (it has really good parts, but imo focuses too heavily on motives and too little on believable character development... but I'm afraid one could discuss that ad infinitum).

The HH series on the other hand is quite awesome, because it has exactly what I expected: warporn (good word for that!), some new insights on the old Legions and how 30k was different from 40k, and that's about it.

I think it is fair to say that most people rather like the series though, sales figures would seem to support this conclusion.

I've yet to run across someone who just hated the entire series without exception, more often you get people who like some of the books a lot and can pretty much take or leave the rest. I personally am a fan of everything Dan Abnett writes for example and don't really feel that most of the rest of the stuff measures up to his entries.

That said, I think by any objective measure the first three novels are actually really good, even if you separate them from their genre, from the opening line of the series you really get a feel for the atmosphere of hope and wonder of the Great Crusade, but you get it with a overwhelming sense of melancholy and the inevitable as we know what story we are reading:

‘I was there,’ he would say afterwards, until afterwards became a time quite devoid of laughter. ‘I was there, the day Horus slew the Emperor.’

There aren't any really unique themes in these books if you ignore the setting and really look at the plots, essentially these are stories of the fall of a Golden Age and reminiscent of Arthurian legend or Biblical tales more than anything to me.

That may have sounded like I am giving the series more credit than it deserves, but honestly dismissing it as "bolter porn" ignores some of the actually good writing here, like I said it has its bad points, I particularly didn't like Nemesis or The Outcast Dead very much and novels like Battle for the Abyss don't especially add a lot to the story, but on the whole the series stands up to scrutiny fairly well I think.

I've enjoyed them thus far, though there have been a few turds in the pool. Being written by numerous authors in different styles can be tough on the fan base, however.

The Horus Heresy books have redefined or defined in better detail much of the fluff for 40k. Many fans have had trouble with this as many preconceived notions have been brought under assault and in a somewhat 'ham-handed' way.

That, and the fact that the heresy novels are very humano-centric which turns off the xenophiles (human, human-haters).

I like them in a vacuum. I don't like the retcons.

I like most of them, a couple are bad, and some are good but oversimplify things. I mean, I felt sorry for Fulgrim by the end of his book, but he was no longer as interesting a character as the one who sacrificed everything in a corrupted quest for perfection, even his humanity (primarchity? Whatever he was to start with.)

Durza wrote:I like most of them, a couple are bad, and some are good but oversimplify things. I mean, I felt sorry for Fulgrim by the end of his book, but he was no longer as interesting a character as the one who sacrificed everything in a corrupted quest for perfection, even his humanity (primarchity? Whatever he was to start with.)

That's a good way to put it. The whole demon-weapon-made-me-do-it thing was an epic failure. I hated that so bad. BL writers could have done so much better.

GreatGunz wrote:

Durza wrote:I like most of them, a couple are bad, and some are good but oversimplify things. I mean, I felt sorry for Fulgrim by the end of his book, but he was no longer as interesting a character as the one who sacrificed everything in a corrupted quest for perfection, even his humanity (primarchity? Whatever he was to start with.)

That's a good way to put it. The whole demon-weapon-made-me-do-it thing was an epic failure. I hated that so bad. BL writers could have done so much better.

If your comment is true then they would have done so especially when writing a novel with epic implications.

This is the tragedy (to some) which is the Horus Heresy novels and its numerous authors greatly varied capabilities and notions.

Just finished reading "Know no Fear" - and I have to say I see a bit more "awesome" with the Ultramarines. I like the books because instead of portraying the Spacemarines, these god-like beings, as this impenetrable, non-human, fortress that always wins the day, these books instead portray them as more human. Even the primarchs are portrayed as god-like, but human, especially when Guilliman got pissed as gak.

Durza wrote:I like most of them, a couple are bad, and some are good but oversimplify things. I mean, I felt sorry for Fulgrim by the end of his book, but he was no longer as interesting a character as the one who sacrificed everything in a corrupted quest for perfection, even his humanity (primarchity? Whatever he was to start with.)

That was still in the book.

It was explicit that the Daemon wasn't actually controlling Fulgrim's mind, his psychic defenses were too strong. He thought that the voices in his head was some weird extension of his perfection.

Fulgrim's just... Really fething stupid. And a total douche.

Horus was sort of similar. His fall just made him, specifically, look like a total fething assnugget. What a dick."Oh baw people won't worship me I'm gonna kill my dad now". Granted, he had other legitimate reasons to be pissed that were mentioned, but that being the straw that broke the camel's back was lame.

Magnus and Lorgar's falls were very well done though, IMO. A Thousand Sons is my favorite book in the series, and others were good too. Prospero Burns made a far more interesting Space Wolf legion/chapter than the gak in the codex.

As someone who knew about 40k but didn't know about it, I have found the HH books I have read to be pretty good personally.


The first four books, Fulgrim, A Thousand Sons, Prospero Burns Is what I have read so far, and I am reading First Heretic now.


I really like the fact that all the hype around ADB wordsmithing wasn't false, I could see in the first few chapters why he has a fan boi mafia.

fidel wrote:Just finished reading "Know no Fear" - and I have to say I see a bit more "awesome" with the Ultramarines. I like the books because instead of portraying the Spacemarines, these god-like beings, as this impenetrable, non-human, fortress that always wins the day, these books instead portray them as more human. Even the primarchs are portrayed as god-like, but human, especially when Guilliman got pissed as gak.

I think this is the important bit for me. Dan Abnett introduced a very good concept in including normal, regular human characters in with the Astartes. In many cases, the human characters are some of the main characters of novel. This allows us to see the Astartes as humans-with-differences, rather than the completely non-human, emotionless Action Men of practically all other Space Marine books.

Weirdly, it's many of the HH books which don't have important/equal/beievable human characters which are considered some of the worst. Deliverance Lost, Battle for the Abyss, Fallen Angels etc.

Most of the HH novels have been getting good reviews though, but then again you can't please everybody

Pilau Rice wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Fulgrim and Horus both get tricked by demon weapons. Boring. Lorgar says "feth the emperor I'm running gak now." That's more like it.

Yup, the old way was the best, a talking sword is dum if you ask me.

Horus wasn't tricked by a weapon he, was tricked by his best buddy impersonator, which you know, should have been a bit suspicious from the start seeing as he was dead

Ha ha, fooled you!
Oh Erebus, you trickster you

Horus saw right through his deception, but decided to go ahead with his heresy anyway.

It's basically went down like this.

Erebus - "The Emperor seeks to install himself as a god! He fears your greatness and will erase all memory of you!"
Horus - "Come on, that's a bunch of crap and you know it. ... Then again, why shouldn't he fear my greatness? I am pretty awesome, after all. Hmm, you know what, feth that guy, I'll give him something to be scared about. And this whole god thing sounds pretty good, too, I'm going to go with that."

Omegus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

GreatGunz wrote:Fulgrim and Horus both get tricked by demon weapons. Boring. Lorgar says "feth the emperor I'm running gak now." That's more like it.

Yup, the old way was the best, a talking sword is dum if you ask me.

Horus wasn't tricked by a weapon he, was tricked by his best buddy impersonator, which you know, should have been a bit suspicious from the start seeing as he was dead

Ha ha, fooled you!
Oh Erebus, you trickster you

Horus saw right through his deception, but decided to go ahead with his heresy anyway.

It's basically went down like this.

Erebus - "The Emperor seeks to install himself as a god! He fears your greatness and will erase all memory of you!"
Horus - "Come on, that's a bunch of crap and you know it. ... Then again, why shouldn't he fear my greatness? I am pretty awesome, after all. Hmm, you know what, feth that guy, I'll give him something to be scared about. And this whole god thing sounds pretty good, too, I'm going to go with that."

I didn't want to give it all away, just up until Magnus show's up .. whoops.