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CCS 255 - straken, medic, astropath, 3x melta, carapace

Vets 190 - 3x melta, bastonne, carapace

Vets 145 - 3x melta, carapace, PF) X 2

Vets 160 - 3x plasma, carapace, PF) X2

2x vendetta 260

2 squadrons 2x valkyries 620- Pods, LC, Bolter sponsons

and for the fun of it,
marbo 65

I wasnt entirely sure if i wanted to run bastonne or just a sarge with PF but i thought bastonne might be worth a try especially if he hangs out with straken.
Even then im still not sure about him so i thought i would ask the opinion of dakka about wether or not i should take bastonne or not or if there is anything else i should maybe change
in this list.

Personally, I wouldn't run Bastonne. He's cool, but not the best use of 60 points. As for the rest of the list, overall not bad, but why carapace armor? I did the same thing originaly with my air calv and those points are far better spent on demolitions, especially in a melta vet squad. Also, I'm not a fan of the power fists/straken. If you jump out of a valk, you're not assaulting, and a lot of assault units would have no problem chewing through a 10 man guardsmen squad, even with a fist and counter-attack.
And the valks, if you take the rocket pods, why take the lascannon? You have enough meltas and vendettas to deal with armor, let your valks rip the hordes apart with their multilasers and rocket pods.
Sorry if this sounds overly critical, I just have differing views on aircalv I guess haha
If you like, I can post/pm you my list if you'd like to see it.

the carapace is really a matter of preferance. ive tried demolitions and its never really worked for me.

somehow through some favor by the dice gods my sarge always lives long enough to swing his powerfist wether on the offence or defence and the wound more often than power swords since even with the charge they will only be S4 once if they are with straken. yeah this is contradicted by bastonne but i really couldnt think of any thing else to spend the pts on

The dice gods tend to hate me when it comes to assaults
But yeah, while they are better than the power sword, its still lots of points. Remember, we do always have Marbo haha.
Also, have you thought about using 2 CCS?

not really. its not something i really want to especailly since vet squads are more fragile than blobs i would like to have the extra vet squad then an extra CCS

While I'm not sure if your list is designed to play in a tournament, it's how I always design my lists and the stance I offer suggestions from. First problem I see with the list is you only have 3 troop choices for a 2k game. While marines might be able to pull it off if they properly support everything, guard can't because a stiff wind tends to knock them over, even if they have carapace armor. Next problem I see looking at the list is there are too many superfluous upgrades, all the carapace armor, and the Valkyrie upgrades aren't really worth it since those 4 valks cost more than 4 vendettas and they have no focus. What I mean by no focus is you're upgrading the multi-laser a good anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon while trying to make the vehicle itself anti infantry. Another problem I see is the plasma guns in the vets, plasma is a bad choice in an assault list as it prevents you from assaulting after you shoot them. Lastly at the 2k level, 6 vehicles with av 12 just isn't going to cut it too well, especially when you have 2 vehicles that are empty so I would suggest adding in some chimera chassis vehicles, even if it goes against a "strict" air cav list. What's air cav without the ground pounders they're supposed to support? What I would suggest then is possibly a list that looks like this;

CCS- Straken, Carapace, Medic, 3 Melta, Astropath, Officer of the Fleet- 285 points

Vets- 3 melta, PF, All have Shotguns- 115 points
Vets- 3 melta, PF, All have Shotguns- 115 points
Vets- 3 melta, PF, All have Shotguns- 115 points

Infantry Platoon
PCS- 3 melta, Chimera
Infantry Squad- Melta, Chimera- 115 points
Infantry Squad- Melta, Chimera- 115 points
Special Weapons Squad- 3 Melta- 65 points
Special Weapons Squad- 3 Melta- 65 points

2 Vendetta Squadron- Heavy Bolters- 280 points
2 Vendetta Squadron- Heavy Bolters- 280 points
2 Vendetta Squadron- Heavy Bolters- 280 points

Total-1965 points

You have Vendettas that are dedicated anti-tank platforms, that can work on mopping up infantry once the tanks are popped. Straken's squad added the Officer of the Fleet, so you can further isolate the units an opponent that reserves everything. An entire Infantry platoon was added simply by removing the the extra upgrades from the vets, bastonne, and the valkyries.

every valk/vendetta is full i have 5 vet squads not 3. i am thinking i will drop the LC on the valks since all i took them for was the extra umph if i needed it which i probably wont (though with that comment i will now come across at least 1 instance where i need them)

While you might come across a situation where you need it, keep in mind the Vendettas can play keep away quite well against a horde army, and use the heavy bolters to whittle away until you dedicate the vets to an assault.

Okay, I have to disagree. Don't run 6 vendettas, that's silly. Vendettas are gunboats, and they can only move 6 inches if you want to fire more than one weapon. The heavy bolters on the vendetta are bad, valks with rocket pods do a much better job against hordes. With 6 vendettas, you have zero anti-horde ability. Run 4 valks and 2 vendettas.
Also, aircalv =/= good assault. You can't assault if you're disembarking from a moving valk. So keep the plasma, they're not assaulting anyways. I'd say drop straken, you don't want to assault if you dont have to. Melta vets pop tanks, CCSs give them orders and twin link their shots, as well as using that on theirselves. Valks mow down hordes and things no longer in their transports. Vendettas pop things and carry the plasma vets which kill HQ's and elites. That's roughly it, shoot, don't assault.

i do have to admit putting hvy bolters on vendettas seems counterproductive for the exact same reason it was suggested i take the LC of regular valks.

Check out my crazy a$$ friend. Scratch built air corp! Totally rad. Has even more now. Bug him to post some pics.
DrG

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420001.page

General Ian wrote:i do have to admit putting hvy bolters on vendettas seems counterproductive for the exact same reason it was suggested i take the LC of regular valks.

However, the biggest difference lies in the fact that the vendettas with heavy bolters are still cheaper pointswise than a kitted out Valkyrie. The other difference however, is you're not diluting the firepower of a Vendetta by adding the heavy bolters like the setup on the Valkyrie. What I mean by that is that with the Valkyrie, if you use the Lascannon to shoot at a tank, you have so much wasted potential because everything else you fire is Strength 5 or below, hardly Anti-armor capable.

Nuul Nalio wrote:Okay, I have to disagree. Don't run 6 vendettas, that's silly. Vendettas are gunboats, and they can only move 6 inches if you want to fire more than one weapon. The heavy bolters on the vendetta are bad, valks with rocket pods do a much better job against hordes. With 6 vendettas, you have zero anti-horde ability. Run 4 valks and 2 vendettas.

Seriously, when was the last time you ran into a "horde" army on the tabletop? Nine times out of ten the armies you see on the table top will be some kind of mechanized list because mech is hard to stop unless you build for it. Using an aircav list he has more than enough mobility, but by running the Valkyries he's missing out on a key piece to any army. Which is long range anti-tank firepower. To properly utilize the speed of the Vendetta and Valks you need to have something that can pop a vehicle at range, which means lascannons, autocannons, missile launchers, etc. While melta is nice, and certainly has a place in any list, in an imperial guard list it functions best as a shoot from inside since the standard guardsman dies fast. As I said in my first post, I'm giving my suggestions from the perspective of a tournament player. The first piece of tournament knowledge is, build your list balanced and for all comers. Which brings me to the next two points, troop models die to anti-tank weapons but tanks don't die to anti-infantry weapons. The last bit, playing a mechanized list gives you all the power you need to beat a horde list. It's all in using the fact that your opponent can only move 6 inches per turn, when you can still be effective moving 12 inches per turn. Higher speed keeps you out of the threat radius of a horde army. Isolate and destroy enemy units, one at a time because a foot horde can easily get stuck on one side of the table when you move flat out with a Valk/Vendetta to the other side.

It should do okay if your limiting yourself to an all air-cav fun list. If your trying to be competitive its time to rethink things.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

General Ian wrote:i do have to admit putting hvy bolters on vendettas seems counterproductive for the exact same reason it was suggested i take the LC of regular valks.

However, the biggest difference lies in the fact that the vendettas with heavy bolters are still cheaper pointswise than a kitted out Valkyrie. The other difference however, is you're not diluting the firepower of a Vendetta by adding the heavy bolters like the setup on the Valkyrie. What I mean by that is that with the Valkyrie, if you use the Lascannon to shoot at a tank, you have so much wasted potential because everything else you fire is Strength 5 or below, hardly Anti-armor capable.

Really?
Valkyrie with MRPs and multilaser = 130 pts
Vendetta with heavy bolters = 140 pts
Unless 140 is really smaller than 130, I think you may be wrong sir. The valk with rocket pods and a multilaser doesn't need the heavy bolters.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

Nuul Nalio wrote:Okay, I have to disagree. Don't run 6 vendettas, that's silly. Vendettas are gunboats, and they can only move 6 inches if you want to fire more than one weapon. The heavy bolters on the vendetta are bad, valks with rocket pods do a much better job against hordes. With 6 vendettas, you have zero anti-horde ability. Run 4 valks and 2 vendettas.

Seriously, when was the last time you ran into a "horde" army on the tabletop? Nine times out of ten the armies you see on the table top will be some kind of mechanized list because mech is hard to stop unless you build for it. Using an aircav list he has more than enough mobility, but by running the Valkyries he's missing out on a key piece to any army. Which is long range anti-tank firepower. To properly utilize the speed of the Vendetta and Valks you need to have something that can pop a vehicle at range, which means lascannons, autocannons, missile launchers, etc. While melta is nice, and certainly has a place in any list, in an imperial guard list it functions best as a shoot from inside since the standard guardsman dies fast. As I said in my first post, I'm giving my suggestions from the perspective of a tournament player. The first piece of tournament knowledge is, build your list balanced and for all comers. Which brings me to the next two points, troop models die to anti-tank weapons but tanks don't die to anti-infantry weapons. The last bit, playing a mechanized list gives you all the power you need to beat a horde list. It's all in using the fact that your opponent can only move 6 inches per turn, when you can still be effective moving 12 inches per turn. Higher speed keeps you out of the threat radius of a horde army. Isolate and destroy enemy units, one at a time because a foot horde can easily get stuck on one side of the table when you move flat out with a Valk/Vendetta to the other side.

So according to you we're supposed to build a balanced list prepared for anything, except for horde armies because we never see them on the table top? That's ridiculous. You need the valks, they carry so much anti-infantry weaponry and can move 12 and fire BOTH of the rocket pods AND the multilaser. Sure the vendetta has 3 TL lascannons, but to fully utilize them you can only move 6 inches, if you move any more, you're only getting one shot. So yes, you have more long range fire power but you moving no faster than your opponet, which is a problem in an aircalv list. You have to have some valks and some vendettas, to make it BALANCED. You're not the only tournament player in the world, I happen to be one too. If you run all vendettas, the first nid, ork, or footguard list you see will eat you alive. Yes, infantry dies to lascannons, but you'r killing (at max) 3 per turn per bird? That won't even scratch a horde army, and if you fly away from the hordes fast for them to catch up, you're firing even fewer lascannons, meaning you're killing 1 (maybe?) per bird per turn). And even against non hordes, it's still not good as a unit in cover will just laugh at you all day long. And you can't assume you're opponet is slower than you as elder, DE, and others can even outrun aircalv. The thing you can count on though is your ability to control the reserve flow and the ability to deploy (or not deploy) in the perfert manner. Deployment is the most important phase for this army. It's not about running around avoiding the enemy, it's deploying just right so you can swoop in and cause massive damage to one flank or isolated unit before pulling back and repeating.

Nuul Nalio wrote:Really?
Valkyrie with MRPs and multilaser = 130 pts
Vendetta with heavy bolters = 140 pts
Unless 140 is really smaller than 130, I think you may be wrong sir. The valk with rocket pods and a multilaser doesn't need the heavy bolters.

The way he had them built with a Lascannon, Rocket Pods, and Bolter sponsons comes in at a total of 155 points per model, as compared to 140 for Vendettas with heavy bolters.

Nuul Nalio wrote:So according to you we're supposed to build a balanced list prepared for anything, except for horde armies because we never see them on the table top? That's ridiculous. You need the valks, they carry so much anti-infantry weaponry and can move 12 and fire BOTH of the rocket pods AND the multilaser. Sure the vendetta has 3 TL lascannons, but to fully utilize them you can only move 6 inches, if you move any more, you're only getting one shot. So yes, you have more long range fire power but you moving no faster than your opponet, which is a problem in an aircalv list. You have to have some valks and some vendettas, to make it BALANCED. You're not the only tournament player in the world, I happen to be one too. If you run all vendettas, the first nid, ork, or footguard list you see will eat you alive. Yes, infantry dies to lascannons, but you'r killing (at max) 3 per turn per bird? That won't even scratch a horde army, and if you fly away from the hordes fast for them to catch up, you're firing even fewer lascannons, meaning you're killing 1 (maybe?) per bird per turn). And even against non hordes, it's still not good as a unit in cover will just laugh at you all day long. And you can't assume you're opponet is slower than you as elder, DE, and others can even outrun aircalv. The thing you can count on though is your ability to control the reserve flow and the ability to deploy (or not deploy) in the perfert manner. Deployment is the most important phase for this army. It's not about running around avoiding the enemy, it's deploying just right so you can swoop in and cause massive damage to one flank or isolated unit before pulling back and repeating.

When vendettas are run in a squadron, they obviously have to shoot at the same target. 6 T-l lascannons per turn can certainly shred armor, but 2 firing per turn (one per vendetta, 2 vendettas moving 12")is more than enough to do the job against transports since most of them don't have armor higher than 12. The other thing you seem to be forgetting about horde killing, is look at all the anti-infantry he already has in the list. Against horde armies you will run into a number of low toughness, low armor save models, and lasguns will do the job just fine against those odds if he is able to properly isolate a unit. In the horde armies you'll see those rocket pods are not much more than glorified bolters (24" range, s4 ap6) that you're paying 20 points per model to add on. They might kill more than a heavy bolter armed vendetta, but unless you're playing annihilation rules it's about taking objectives not killing an opponent. While killing an opponent makes it easier, it's not the only way to win a game. Remember, mech eldar are still a viable army even though they don't put out a massive amount of shots. There's a reason for that as I'm sure you know, it's called speed.

One big problem ive seen with air cav lists is lack of target saturation. Try swapping out some stuff for a chimera mounted platoon. Then again i play footguard so any model count under a hfundred makes me nervouus

Lone Dragoon wrote:When vendettas are run in a squadron, they obviously have to shoot at the same target. 6 T-l lascannons per turn can certainly shred armor, but 2 firing per turn (one per vendetta, 2 vendettas moving 12")is more than enough to do the job against transports since most of them don't have armor higher than 12. The other thing you seem to be forgetting about horde killing, is look at all the anti-infantry he already has in the list. Against horde armies you will run into a number of low toughness, low armor save models, and lasguns will do the job just fine against those odds if he is able to properly isolate a unit. In the horde armies you'll see those rocket pods are not much more than glorified bolters (24" range, s4 ap6) that you're paying 20 points per model to add on. They might kill more than a heavy bolter armed vendetta, but unless you're playing annihilation rules it's about taking objectives not killing an opponent. While killing an opponent makes it easier, it's not the only way to win a game. Remember, mech eldar are still a viable army even though they don't put out a massive amount of shots. There's a reason for that as I'm sure you know, it's called speed.

Do you know how many lasgun shots from a vet it takes to kill an ork? About 5.4 shots. And yes, I know mathhammer isn't always right but I don't like my odds if 1 out of every 5 or 6 shots downs a guy and I'm only getting (at most) 20 shots per unit. I would not rely on a 10 man squad with lasguns and meltas to kill hordes. That's suicide. And speaking of speed, if all of your vendettas move 12 inches and pop 3 transports, are the other vehicles not going to return fire and down all of your birds in one fel swoop? And I'm aware that killing the enemy isn't always the goal but it's easier to chase someone off of an objective with the valks rockets than with lascannons.

Using the speed of the vehicle actually makes surviving the reprisal of the enemy easier by limiting the potential your opponent has for dealing damage back. If you move said vendettas 12 inches towards an opponent to zap an enemy vehicle you're going to go down in flames with those Vendettas. However if you move laterally 12 inches you begin to outdistance much of your enemies fire because most players won't think to saturate long ranged anti-tank in the middle of their backfield. The other part to running a successful aircav with vendettas list is target priority. Don't spend time trying to shoot up that 10 man tactical squad with lascannons, go for the Autocannon/Lascannon predators since getting side armor is fairly easy on those tanks since they tend to stay fairly stationary.

I agree lasguns are not perfect anti-infantry weapons against orks, but now add in the potential 12 heavy bolters (even average 6) into that mob in addition to the lasguns and you have something that can whittle said squad down over the course of a turn or two. The other thing to keep in mind that I was reading in the last few posts, if you drop said guardsmen off of the vendettas/valks before they move, the guardsmen can move and assault. Quite often that's overlooked that a squad can disembark before the move, and be unhindered. The only time the disembark hurts the unit, is if it's at the end of a move. So position yourself in a place that a horde unit will be close to, but can't assault and you're going to set up for the disembark if you chose to do so when using Straken in a list.

If you fly away 12 and have range, chances are there will be things with range on you. A good player will make sure he has the table well enough covered that even if he can't shoot you with the majority of his units, he'll still get shots off at you. Though I will agree on target priority, that's very important, especially in aircalv, regardless of if it's vendetta spam or valks dropping off meltas. You only have so many shots and can only take so much damage, gotta make your shots count right?

As for the heavy bolters, I still don't think I'm sold. To fire both, you're only moving 6 inches, and keeping 2 of your 6 vendettas from firing at enemy armor, which they are much better at doing. And yes, I suppose you could destroy all the enemy vehicles first, but to focus entirely on vehicles and leave all the infantry be won't end well, regardless of how fast you move.

As for assaulting, it is entirely possible, yes, to disembark before the birds move so you are able to assault, but a veteran squad (even with furious charge) can only cause so much damage in CC. The vets (with furious charge from straken) will kill an average of 1.5 marines in CC, and the sergeant with the fist will kill 1.25, according to math anyway, I understand there is random chance. So on average, 3 marines will die, and probably as many if not more vets will die. And if you lose the assault, be prepared to run because non-stubborn leadership 8 isn't exactly wonderful. I'm not saying a successful assault isn't possible, just not likely in my opinion.
But hey! More power to ya if you can take down marines or nobz with 10 guard vets. I wish my dice liked me well enough to let that happen.

Nuul Nalio wrote:As for assaulting, it is entirely possible, yes, to disembark before the birds move so you are able to assault, but a veteran squad (even with furious charge) can only cause so much damage in CC. The vets (with furious charge from straken) will kill an average of 1.5 marines in CC, and the sergeant with the fist will kill 1.25, according to math anyway, I understand there is random chance. So on average, 3 marines will die, and probably as many if not more vets will die. And if you lose the assault, be prepared to run because non-stubborn leadership 8 isn't exactly wonderful. I'm not saying a successful assault isn't possible, just not likely in my opinion.
But hey! More power to ya if you can take down marines or nobz with 10 guard vets. I wish my dice liked me well enough to let that happen.

You've missed the whole trick of using two vehicles in a squadron, it's not going to be just a 10 man veteran squad assaulting and attacking, it's going to be at least 2 10 man squads doing it. Mathhammer says you'll lose 3.56 guardsmen when charging a 10 man marine squad. If the unit has Furious charge from straken you're doing 1.5 from the squad and 1.25 from the sergeant, but now multiply that effect by 2. While I may lose 4 guard in the charge, I just forced a squad of marines to make a morale check on LD 6, if they break they aren't likely to recover as they could be escorted off the board using the vendettas without hindering how the army would handle.

Honestly myself I don't run straken in a mech or aircav list, he's in a foot list with Creed at 2k where Staken's with the blobs and Creed stays back with the heavy weapon teams. Either way about the heavy bolters, you don't have to be sold on them, 60 points isn't much to spend on 12 heavy bolters in any army, and heck they only cost you 60 points, which isn't even enough for a veteran squad.

Okay, fine, I'll admit the 2 squads working together in the assault slipped my mind. Fair enough point.

But as for Straken, I don't use him in aircalv either, he's with the foot blobs and occasionally Yarrick or Creed, though Yarrick is a lot of points for a competive list.
As for the heavy bolters, agree to disagree?