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Let's get to the quick an' nasty

Grot Tanks and Grot Mega Tanks move 2D6, but can always fire. Alternatively, they can choose to not fire any weapons and move "flat out" and move 3D6. As such, they bypass the traditional "combat speed, cruising speed" system.

So, unit X assaults them. How does unit X determine what it needs to hit the grot tanks?

The basis I used initially was this:

Vehicle moved 1"-6" = 4+ to hit
Vehicle moved 7"-12" = 6's to hit

Would it be this simple? Would this still apply even if they decided to move "flat out"?

Feels natural to me to use this, but I'd prefer to clear this up for the tourney I'm going to next weekend.

Edit: Just to provide the actual quote from the unit entry:

Grot Tanks move 2D6" per turn as opposed to the standard rules for vehicles, but can always fire their weapons when they do so. Alternately, they can opt to go flat out and roll 3D6 instead and fire no weapons. Roll once for the entire mob and the distance rolled indicates the furthest any tank in the mob may move that turn.

If they use their standard move (2D6) then It would be based on actual distance traveled (1-6 combat speed, 7-12 Cruising speed).

If you chose flat out, then, no matter what distance you have moved, you have moved flat out, which counts as cruising speed.

Yeah I'd go with DR on this. It seems straight forward, though it would be funny to see a tank go "flat out" and move 3".

Not at all correct DR - remember Assaulting Vehicles is entirely based on the actual displacement of the vehicle, not the movement value it moved at.

Page 63, under Note

If the vehicle moved 3" away from its starting position, it is hit on a 4+. A skimmer that moves in a circle 24" back to the start receives a cover save for moving flat out but would be hit automatically in close combat.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not at all correct DR - remember Assaulting Vehicles is entirely based on the actual displacement of the vehicle, not the movement value it moved at.

Page 63, under Note

If the vehicle moved 3" away from its starting position, it is hit on a 4+. A skimmer that moves in a circle 24" back to the start receives a cover save for moving flat out but would be hit automatically in close combat.

This brings up an interesting point, is there a minimum distance you have to be displaced from your original location to consider it combat speed for the purpose of assault? If my opponent touches the tank and moves it 1 cm, do I now have to roll 4s to hit? (I say the answer is yes).

If my opponent touches his tank and says it moved, but didn't really displace it at all, do I automatically hit or hit on 4s. (I say 4s)

Talking specifically about the skimmer, say I assaulted in, so my guys surround the base exactly. My opponent picks the skimmer up, zooms in a circle and lands in exactly the same spot. Now, his displacement was 0 but I still think I hit of 4s.

What do you guys think?

Tye_Informer wrote:This brings up an interesting point, is there a minimum distance you have to be displaced from your original location to consider it combat speed for the purpose of assault? If my opponent touches the tank and moves it 1 cm, do I now have to roll 4s to hit? (I say the answer is yes).

Yes

If my opponent touches his tank and says it moved, but didn't really displace it at all, do I automatically hit or hit on 4s. (I say 4s)

That's between you and your opponent, but RAW if there's no measurable move, it's auto-hit.

Talking specifically about the skimmer, say I assaulted in, so my guys surround the base exactly. My opponent picks the skimmer up, zooms in a circle and lands in exactly the same spot. Now, his displacement was 0 but I still think I hit of 4s.

Nope - autohit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not at all correct DR - remember Assaulting Vehicles is entirely based on the actual displacement of the vehicle, not the movement value it moved at.

Page 63, under Note

If the vehicle moved 3" away from its starting position, it is hit on a 4+. A skimmer that moves in a circle 24" back to the start receives a cover save for moving flat out but would be hit automatically in close combat.

I thought as much. Would this mean, in your view, that Red Paint would allow an ork vehicle to move at "combat speed", but force those assaulting to only hit on 6's, since it moved 7"?

Here we have a contradiction in the rules.

P.70 defines flat out as more than 12" and up to 18"

The Ork Rule stated flat out is 3D6.

Flat out "Is treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed"p.70

The Ork rule is more specific.

P.63 tells us that a vehicle that moved cruising speed is hit on a 6 in CC.

So my statements were correct.

DeathReaper wrote:Here we have a contradiction in the rules.

P.70 defines flat out as more than 12" and up to 18"

The Ork Rule stated flat out is 3D6.

Flat out "Is treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at cruising speed"p.70

The Ork rule is more specific.

P.63 tells us that a vehicle that moved cruising speed is hit on a 6 in CC.

So my statements were correct.

Except page 63 says to use actual displacement, not the type of movement.

rigeld2 wrote:Except page 63 says to use actual displacement, not the type of movement.

and the Ork codex is more specific.

DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Except page 63 says to use actual displacement, not the type of movement.

and the Ork codex is more specific.

The ork codex dictates how to determine how far you move.
The ork codex does not dictate what distance you moved when determining to-hit numbers for assault.

DR - as above. A vehicle that moves Flat Out can still be autohit in the assault phase.

Kharrak wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Not at all correct DR - remember Assaulting Vehicles is entirely based on the actual displacement of the vehicle, not the movement value it moved at.

Page 63, under Note

If the vehicle moved 3" away from its starting position, it is hit on a 4+. A skimmer that moves in a circle 24" back to the start receives a cover save for moving flat out but would be hit automatically in close combat.

I thought as much. Would this mean, in your view, that Red Paint would allow an ork vehicle to move at "combat speed", but force those assaulting to only hit on 6's, since it moved 7"?

absolutely.

if your ork Trukk drove 7" and had a red paint job for the ork play this counts as moving 6" and the passengers in side can still fire. now if the opponent assaulted you after said movement your total movement was 7 so they are hitting on 6's in CC

So a Grot Mega Tank chooses to move flat out and rolls 3D6, comes up with 5 inches. has it moved flat out?

If it has, cause the ork rules say it has, then checking the chart on P.63 that tells us it moved cruising speed (Flat Out) so it is hit on sixes.

its a contradiction in the rules.

to me it seems the Flat out from the ork codex is more specific than the BRB.

I suppose it could go either way, not that you are going to encounter a roll of 6 or less on 3D6 all that often. because on a 7 or more on 3D6 you are hit on 6's anyway.

DeathReaper wrote:So a Grot Mega Tank chooses to move flat out and rolls 3D6, comes up with 5 inches. has it moved flat out?

If it has, cause the ork rules say it has, then checking the chart on P.63 that tells us it moved cruising speed (Flat Out) so it is hit on sixes.

That's the exact same thing as a skimmer going flat out in a circle and landing exactly where it took off from.
Which means that the skimmer is auto-hit, because you measure from start to end points - not what the vehicle declared it's movement as.

its a contradiction in the rules.

It's really not. What's the difference between a Grot Mega Tank going flat out and ending up 5" ahead, and a Stormraven going flat out and ending up 5" ahead?
Are you going to argue that the Stormraven is also hit on 6's?

to me it seems the Flat out from the ork codex is more specific than the BRB.

If that had any relevance, I'd agree.

I suppose it could go either way, not that you are going to encounter a roll of 6 or less on 3D6 all that often. because on a 7 or more on 3D6 you are hit on 6's anyway.

I don't see how it can go either way - for CC attacks, it's based on actual distance moved, not movement type declared.

It is not the same, you don't declare flat out with the grot tank, you actually move flat out by moving 3D6 inches as per the tanks rules.

The difference is the skimmer can go a lot further than it has, where the Grot tank moved flat out and rolled a 5 so he moves as fast as possible (5") away from his original location.

Flat out for the tank is 5" in that specific instance, since you rolled a 5.

Well, you have to declare it - that's how you get the extra d6.

And I still don't see the difference - the skimmer actually did go 24". It just went in a circle. The Grot Mega Tanks max speed is irrelevant - the only thing that matters is distance from starting point.

Assuming they both go in a straight line:

The difference is the skimmer can land 24" from its starting point for its flat out movement.

The grot tank can only be 5 inches (The roll of 3D6) from its starting point.

They both moved at flat out speed, and they both were displaced by the maximum they are allowed to be displaced.

That flat out for the tank, which moved 5 inches, is its max flat out speed, and was displaced by the max allowed.

It seems more specific that the flat out of the tank will trump the flat out in the brb, since it was actually displaced by its max amount.

Yet it still moved only 5 inches... How is that in any way different from a "normal" vehicle going flat-out and ending up 5" from it's starting position?

DR - and NOTHING in that alters the Note in the rulebook -that for the purposes of ASSAULT you determine the *actual* displacement.

If I have a skimmer that circles 24" back to its starting point, it has indeed gone flat out - but gets hit automatically in close combat. So it cannot embark / disembark troops, cannot normaly fire any weapons, etc.

If i have a grot tank that, having declared it *wishes* to go flat out only rolls 5" - it has still gone flat out. So it cannot normally shoot anything, etc. It is, however, hit on 4+ in combat because the ACTUAL displacement is 5"

You are simply wrong in this - there is no contradiction whatsoever in the rules, just you are thinking that because it "only" moved 5" then there is something odd happening. There isnt. It is exactly like a skimmer dropping 7" back and 12" forwards - it has still moved flat out, but has only displaced 5".

Spetulhu wrote:Yet it still moved only 5 inches... How is that in any way different from a "normal" vehicle going flat-out and ending up 5" from it's starting position?

Because its max move is only 5 inches. whereas a normal fast skimmers max move is 24"

But like I said before it is not going to come up ever really since 1) no one really uses grot tanks, and 2) you will usually roll more than 6 on 3D6.

DeathReaper wrote:But like I said before it is not going to come up ever really since 1) no one really uses grot tanks, and 2) you will usually roll more than 6 on 3D6.

I'm using 'em, and I'm taking them to a tournament this coming weekend

Anyway, I'm going to stick to total displacement. 1-6" = 4+, anything more is 6+, regardless to movement type attempted.

DeathReaper wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Yet it still moved only 5 inches... How is that in any way different from a "normal" vehicle going flat-out and ending up 5" from it's starting position?

Because its max move is only 5 inches. whereas a normal fast skimmers max move is 24"

But like I said before it is not going to come up ever really since 1) no one really uses grot tanks, and 2) you will usually roll more than 6 on 3D6.

Really? theyre freaking awesome things - anyplace where FW is allowed theyre about. IA8 is a good list for a start...

As I pointed out: the NOTE requires total displacement, not what you have said you are moving at. Thats it.