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http://en.sturmkrieg.com/Hunting_Jaguar/Datasheet

Thoughts and suggestions?

Well, I don't really know what to say.

This is, for its price probably the best tank hunter in the game, yes it is 200 points, but you get AV 14 on the front and sides, as well as AV 12 in the rear, BS 4, and a 120" range strength 10 AP 1 shot. Also it is a tank hunter, which I don't remember what that does and I don't have my book on me. Beyond how overpowered that is, the transport ability is worthless because it shouldn't move anyway, just camp and shoot your main gun.

The apocalypse formation is rather meh, for 1355 points you get 4 of your super shots per turrn, for the same price you could field 6, almost 7 of your tanks which combined would be more survivable and more versatile.

The guy I designed it with said he thought it was fair.

It is designed for apocalypse more, where there's plenty of ridiculous stuff.

I see your point about the formation; I guess I tried too hard to stop it from being OP. The double shot is unprecedented, though not as bad as Sd 10" blast.

It's pretty damn overpowered...

purplefood wrote:It's pretty damn overpowered...

Ok, yeah, I definitely need to work on it.

I wish the guy I was working on it with had mentioned this.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

purplefood wrote:It's pretty damn overpowered...

Ok, yeah, I definitely need to work on it.

I wish the guy I was working on it with had mentioned this.

My main suggestions
1. Drop the BS to 3, it uses a blast template anyway so it doesn't effect it too much.
2. Lower the side armour to 13 and rear to 11 it makes it a lot like a Leman Russ, which is a pretty tough tank
3. Drop the transport ability, there isn't much that it can carry anyway besides storm trooper squads, PDS, and IG CCS due to the limitations.
4. Drop the sloped armour rules, they seem backwards, and concepts like that are best left abstract at best.

For the apoc formation I would suggest some sort of networking system. So, for example if one hits its target the rest get their BS boosted by one (for the rest of the turn) and allow up to 8 tanks (max BS of 10 for the last tank to shoot). That makes it seem more like a coordinated unit, think of it like the tank crews communicating with each other to improve their overall accuracy.

So, lets say you have 8 tanks in the formation, and you are shooting at a super heavy or titan.
Tank 1 fires at BS 3 and misses the target
Tank 2 fires at BS 3 (because no tanks in the formation have hit the target yet) and scores a hit
Tank 3 fires at BS 4 and hits
Tank 4 fires at BS 5 and misses
Tank 5 fires at BS 5 and hits
Tank 6 fires at BS 6 and hits
Tank 7 fires at BS 7 and hits
Tank 8 fires at BS 8 and hits

The main point of such a formation is that it practically guarantees that the target will be hit and will take damage.

TBH the idea for the tank feels... awkward, like this guy that tried to make a tank based off the Merkava, it was workable, it was just awkward since it tried to do too much (transports up to 4 troops or something, has a vanquisher cannon, had a mortar, had 2 or 3 heavy bolters). Your tank isn't that bad, it just feels weird if you get me.

Thanks for your suggestions.

I'll definitely try using that.

I know what you mean, in your closing comment. I always feel that any modern tank design in 40k looks way off. They're too productive in terms of appearance, which doesn't fit the 40k vehicle design at all. I'm not sure I'd let someone even use an M1 Abrams in a 40k game, even if it used counts as for existing rules. I'm sure that to have it to scale, it would have to take up the area of four Leman Russes.

You might want to change the name, Jaguars are solitary...

This seems like an attempt to get a Jagdpanther in a normal game, what with the huge gun and sloped armor.

My input:

This is better than a vanquisher for the same points, basically.
Suggestions:
Drop the Armor down to 14/13/11
Remove "Sloped Armor"
Remove "Blast" from the Shell but leave it Str. 10 AP 1 Ordnance
Give it the ability to buy Tank Hunters, but does not come standard.
Make it BS 3.
Remove transport capacity.
Drop points to 175 or so.

I think then you'll be safe.
BTW, check this vehicle out:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Imperial_Guard_Tanks/DESTROYER-TANK-HUNTER-COMPLETE-KIT.html

It's basically a Hetzer TD.

Thanks for your input. I'm not sure why people have an aversion to sloped armor. I remember a GW staff member who complained about the idea of it; I'm pretty sure he also held an actual grudge because I wrote a parody of a Khorne data sheet as a joke. (I also heard from Dondrekahn that he got fired because people were calling ahead and going to other GW stores when he was working)

Overall I think your ideas are good, although I think I'll keep the 200 and the tank hunters rule. The transport doesn't need to stay, not if its being used in apocalypse.

It's not being designed on the Jagdpanther, which I would likely be opposed to doing. I am strongly opposed to including any Nazi themes in armies. The only exceptions for vehicles are maybe the Ratte and the Daimler Benz C, which are so exaggerated and would fit into 40k enough that their use would be fun and coincidental rather than an indicator of closet Nazism. I also might remove the Bundeswehr reference with the name "Jaguar" because of the pseudo Nazi iconography used by that military.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:Thanks for your input. I'm not sure why people have an aversion to sloped armor. I remember a GW staff member who complained about the idea of it; I'm pretty sure he also held an actual grudge because I wrote a parody of a Khorne data sheet as a joke. (I also heard from Dondrekahn that he got fired because people were calling ahead and going to other GW stores when he was working)

The problem isn't with sloped armour, it is how it is represented. Something like that should at best be represented as simply a better AV, if that. In modern warfare sloping has nearly zero chance of having a shot glance off do to design, and even during WW2 the main point behind it was to increase the amount of armour one would have to penetrate while lowering the actual mass of armour rather than having a shot bounce off.

Also melta weapons wouldn't be effected by sloped armour, explosive weapons wouldn't be effected, plasma weapons probably wouldn't be effected, and laser weapons wouldn't be effected. All you are left with after that are guns like the Railgun and Vanquisher cannon, so if it did follow that pattern it would really mess the Tau up.

Buttons wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:Thanks for your input. I'm not sure why people have an aversion to sloped armor. I remember a GW staff member who complained about the idea of it; I'm pretty sure he also held an actual grudge because I wrote a parody of a Khorne data sheet as a joke. (I also heard from Dondrekahn that he got fired because people were calling ahead and going to other GW stores when he was working)

The problem isn't with sloped armour, it is how it is represented. Something like that should at best be represented as simply a better AV, if that. In modern warfare sloping has nearly zero chance of having a shot glance off do to design, and even during WW2 the main point behind it was to increase the amount of armour one would have to penetrate while lowering the actual mass of armour rather than having a shot bounce off.

Also melta weapons wouldn't be effected by sloped armour, explosive weapons wouldn't be effected, plasma weapons probably wouldn't be effected, and laser weapons wouldn't be effected. All you are left with after that are guns like the Railgun and Vanquisher cannon, so if it did follow that pattern it would really mess the Tau up.

I think the Chimera would be a good example of a vehicle with sloped armor like that.

As for effectiveness against weapons, I think a lot more weapons would be affected. Plasma weapons would be affected as they are just blobs in forcefields flying at high speed. Laser weapons would be effected, depending on the angle and could be defeated by putting a mirror on the tank.

Thanks for your explanation.