Using a Barlog as a Bloodthirster?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**DrDuckman**

I need a Bloodthirser for my Chaos Daemons, but I greatly dislike the GW model, and dont have the money for the FW one. I currently proxy him with a Deamon Prince, and it can get confusing.

Can I use the LOTR Barlog as one? Any size/base problems? Will people complain?

Also, can I use him in GW tournaments?

**SoloFalcon1138**

There os some obscure rule about using LOTR models in GW tournaments. Something about intellectual property and copyright laws. I don't quite inderstand it...

**CthuluIsSpy**

No. I think there is some legal thing forbidding the use of LOTR miniatures in WHFB/WH40k games.
Besides, I believe the Balrog is a bit smaller than the BT, so some may start blaming you for modelling for advantage.

**DrDuckman**

Damn, I really like the Barlog's wings.... I guess FW stuff is ok?

Also, what's the size difference between a BT and a DP? maybe I'll just heavily convert one.

**Corrode**

Just use the Balrog. It's cool and it's about the same size.

**DrDuckman**

Well, given the legal issues I doubt I can even use it in friendly games on GW shops, so its not really practical...

**Shadowbrand**

Such a damned shame too. Though we have someone who uses it as exactly that and has had no issues using it.

**Tiarna Fuilteach**

Never heard of any legal issues, a staff member at gw Dublin used a balrog as a ghorgon before it got it's own model

**Winterkit**

GW won't let you use it in their stores/tournaments. They recently released a rule forbidding Counts As models.

In friendly games/other tourneys, it'll depend on the organiser/your opponents.

**Skriker**

DrDuckman wrote:I need a Bloodthirser for my Chaos Daemons, but I greatly dislike the GW model, and dont have the money for the FW one. I currently proxy him with a Deamon Prince, and it can get confusing.

Can I use the LOTR Barlog as one? Any size/base problems? Will people complain?

Also, can I use him in GW tournaments?

To get the property rights for LotR GW had to promise to keep the LotR mini line separate from their other mini lines, thus you won't find any LotR minis on official GW tourney tables. You can do conversions with LotR and say 40k minis for golden daemon, but they won't print a picture of it in white dward, though, even if you win.

For playing with your friends do whatever you want. The Balrog is a seriously sweet model. Reaper also has an awesome "fire" daemon in their line that is a large daemon with a flaming sword and batline wings which I use as a khorne daemon prince, but it would make a decent bloodthirster too.

Skriker

**Rimmy**

ok the REAL reason for this is pretty simple and straightforward. (this is coming from a former redshirt aka ME)

GW won't let you run a Balrog as a bloodthirster, because they SELL a bloodthirster model, and they want to you buy it.

that simple. period, end of discussion. yes, I have had to enforce this rule as well.

that being said, personally I have no issue with it. I think the balrog model is MUCH better looking.

now, GW says, that you can play a GW model between games as long as it is a "kitbash" so my advice would be, take the balrog, add in some DP bits, and maybe a hint of green stuff, and you have yourself a kitbash. totally legal.

**insaniak**

Skriker wrote:To get the property rights for LotR GW had to promise to keep the LotR mini line separate from their other mini lines, thus you won't find any LotR minis on official GW tourney tables. You can do conversions with LotR and say 40k minis for golden daemon, but they won't print a picture of it in white dward, though, even if you win.

I haven't been keeping up with it due to just not caring, but the original policy was that due to the licensing agreement there was to be no mixing of LotR minis with WHFB/40K minis, so no GD entries using LotR minis or parts, and no LotR minis in tournie armies.

That was relaxed after a few years, with LotR mnis being allowed in both GD and tournaments, with the caveat that such minis wouldn't be photographed.

I have a gigantic Balrog from the Sabertooth Games 'I-can't-believe-it's-not-a-Clix-Game' LotR range that I bought to use as Angrath (the 888-point Forgeworld monstrosity). Fits the bill nicely.

**ElectricPaladin**

Yeah - I'd be ok with it if you were my opponent in a friendly game. I have also heard that they won't allow it in tournaments, though.

**Mr. S Baldrick**

The section of the licensing agreement you guys keep talking about expired in 2008. It was only for 5 years after the last movie came out, not forever. A friend of mine used to work in the US studio until they shut it down and they threw a party the day it expired to celebrate all the new stuff they could do for tables. So if anyone in a GW store is saying you can’t use if they are mistaken, or misinformed about the old rule. It’s a GW model. As for size, who cares it’s not that much different from the blood thirster and it’s on the same size base. People use the FW one all the time and nobody complains and that thing is enormous. OP you don’t have to worry about tournaments too much because there are no more GW ran GTs anymore in the US.

**Cheex**

Winterkit wrote:GW won't let you use it in their stores/tournaments. They recently released a rule forbidding Counts As models.

Wait, since when?

**BluntmanDC**

Cheexsta wrote:
Winterkit wrote:GW won't let you use it in their stores/tournaments. They recently released a rule forbidding Counts As models.

Wait, since when?

I haven't heard this either, and it sounds wierd as GW openly premote conversions, i.e. Counts as, they just have the one rule that it has to be WYSIWYG? (however in this circumstance using a balrog in place of a blood thirster would actually be proxying not counts as)

**insaniak**

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:oP you don’t have to worry about tournaments too much because there are no more GW ran GTs anymore in the US.

Going by the UK flag beside his username, I rather doubt the OP was concerned about US tournaments...

**Winterkit**

BluntmanDC wrote:
Cheexsta wrote:
Winterkit wrote:GW won't let you use it in their stores/tournaments. They recently released a rule forbidding Counts As models.

Wait, since when?

I haven't heard this either, and it sounds wierd as GW openly premote conversions, i.e. Counts as, they just have the one rule that it has to be WYSIWYG? (however in this circumstance using a balrog in place of a blood thirster would actually be proxying not counts as)

Ah, I misremembered slightly: It was recently implimented at WHW, I'm not sure if this has spread to the rest of the company yet.

Games Workshop wrote:
1. No non-GW games or rule sets will be allowed at Warhammer World
2. If GW produces the appropriate model/s they must be used regardless, of your aesthetic opinion. The exception to this is using scratch built or converted models; as this is seen as an integral part of the hobby, but they must not contain parts from other game manufacturers. The example given in their events guide is as follows:-
Quote:

Using Converted or ‘Counts As’ Models
Every hobbyist loves seeing converted miniatures, especially if it’s a whole themed army, and even more so if they get to play against them! Here at Warhammer World, we look forward to seeing these ideas and being inspired by them- imagination and ingenuity is a part of the hobby we want to actively encourage. To that end, using models you’ve converted to represent rules not currently covered by a model in the Citadel range, or an idea you’ve had is absolutely fine. They may even look nothing like the figures we sell!
All your models should be on the appropriate base size (i.e. the base that was supplied with the model).
If Games Workshop produces a model for a unit entry, we expect you to use it. For example, plastic Ork Boyz painted slightly differently cannot be used for Kommandos. Similarly, you cannot use plastic Moria Goblins to represent Gundabad Blackshields. The exception to this is any conversions you may have done for thematic reasons.

Any conversions should be clearly obvious as to what they are, and be the same size as the citadel miniature sold.
All models and their components must be produced by Citadel Miniatures, Forgeworld or Warhammer Forge.
3. No non-GW models will be allowed at Warhammer World (exception for 1st. Co. Vets. Historical players)

Sources:

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84216
http://su-web.nottingham.ac.uk/~rpgsoc/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3879&sid=da11f075ec5eff6bbaf11296ca601df7

**Mr. S Baldrick**

insaniak wrote:
Mr. S Baldrick wrote:oP you don’t have to worry about tournaments too much because there are no more GW ran GTs anymore in the US.

Going by the UK flag beside his username, I rather doubt the OP was concerned about US tournaments...

oops I thought he was in the US.

**AegisGrimm**

Wait....what?

GW finally want far enough to say that if there is a model currently available for a certain unit type, you are forced to buy that model to be able to field the unit in their stores, rather than convert your own? I understand the part about needing to use conversions that use GW models and bits(that aren't homemade), but good freaking god.......

That completely eliminates creative stand-ins for armies.

**thenoobbomb**

DrDuckman wrote:Well, given the legal issues I doubt I can even use it in friendly games on GW shops, so its not really practical...

Ask them.

**Skriker**

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:The section of the licensing agreement you guys keep talking about expired in 2008. It was only for 5 years after the last movie came out, not forever. A friend of mine used to work in the US studio until they shut it down and they threw a party the day it expired to celebrate all the new stuff they could do for tables. So if anyone in a GW store is saying you can’t use if they are mistaken, or misinformed about the old rule. It’s a GW model. As for size, who cares it’s not that much different from the blood thirster and it’s on the same size base. People use the FW one all the time and nobody complains and that thing is enormous. OP you don’t have to worry about tournaments too much because there are no more GW ran GTs anymore in the US.

This is nice information to know. Didn't realize the agreement has expired.

Opens things up a bit for sure.

Skriker

**AL-PiXeL01**

So what you guys are telling me is that I can't equip my csm with jump packs and call them raptors in a tournament or at a GW shop because the raptor model exist?
Already I refuse to use obliterators because of the awful design (and army fluff reasons). This means I am down two units :(

**rodgers37**

Whoever said Balrog is smaller, do you have the model?
The body is not as wide, but the wing span is bigger, and the model is longer. Not really much difference, if anything i'd say the Balrog is bigger overall.

And you don't want to use the FW one, thats huge.

**kronk**

I wouldn't have a problem with it.

If you play in tournaments at your game store or club, just ask the TO that runs it.

**Praxiss**

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:So what you guys are telling me is that I can't equip my csm with jump packs and call them raptors in a tournament or at a GW shop because the raptor model exist?
Already I refuse to use obliterators because of the awful design (and army fluff reasons). This means I am down two units :(

I'm in the same position with the Raptors (I used berserker bodies though).

Hey Ho, good luck enforcing that one GW.

**Brother SRM**

There was a thing for a while that LotR models couldn't be used in official GW tournaments and the like because there might be photographers there who would run the photos in WD or GW's website. LotR bits also couldn't be used in conversions for the same purposes. Frankly there's no reason you couldn't use a Balrog as a Bloodthirster in a friendly game; the model is of appropriate size and daemonic nastiness. A buddy of mine used to do this and it was pretty cool.

**Skriker**

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:So what you guys are telling me is that I can't equip my csm with jump packs and call them raptors in a tournament or at a GW shop because the raptor model exist?
Already I refuse to use obliterators because of the awful design (and army fluff reasons). This means I am down two units :(

The ruling listed was for Warhammer World, not GW and every GW store...irritating that WHW would get in the way of the creative side of the hobby for me. Of course given that I don't live in the UK and will never likely set foot in WHW let alone play a game there I really don't care in the long run. I am in the process of picking up some Mark V Heresy army assault marines for inclusion in my nurgle chaos army as raptors, unless I can find a set of the old style raptors on ebay somewhere. The key here is to not play at WHW.

If GW tries to do something like that in their stores they are just asking for trouble. No good comes out of them not allowing players to creatively use the figures they purchase from them.

Skriker

**Grey Templar**

I'd switch to playing at non-GW stores and events. They generally are a much better environment on multiple levels.

And you could use your Balrog Bloodthirster with no problem.

I would love to see a Balrog Bloodthirster. I think the Balrog is actually bigger then the Blood Thirster model(although I havn't seen a Balrog in person yet so I might be wrong about the scale)

**GreatGunz**

Better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. Just put your Balrog on the table and act like it's no big deal. Probably no one will even say anything about it. If they do, tell them it's a GW model and they can't say gak. If that doesn't work, tell them they're just scared of your mighty greater demon and taunt them until they give in. If even that doesn't work, take out two squads of bloodletters and put them on the table instead of the greater demon. The bloodletters are better fighters anyway