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I know this has been answered a million and a half times im sure but how much of a squad do you have to see to be able to shoot at it. Example squad A is behind a rhino and squad B can see the out stretched arm of squad A can squad B shoot at squad A? Thanks

You have to be able to see a minimum of one body part from one model.

Body part means head, arm, leg, or torso. (Hands and feet are an unanswered question, depending on if you interpret them to be part of the arm/leg, or a separate body part)

angelofdeath8950 wrote:I know this has been answered a million and a half times im sure but how much of a squad do you have to see to be able to shoot at it. Example squad A is behind a rhino and squad B can see the out stretched arm of squad A can squad B shoot at squad A? Thanks

If you can see any part of any model in the squad that is not a gun barrel, head, hand, or foot you can shoot the squad.
edit: or wings or decorative stuff like banners iirc

rigeld2 wrote:

angelofdeath8950 wrote:I know this has been answered a million and a half times im sure but how much of a squad do you have to see to be able to shoot at it. Example squad A is behind a rhino and squad B can see the out stretched arm of squad A can squad B shoot at squad A? Thanks

If you can see any part of any model in the squad that is not a gun barrel, head, hand, or foot you can shoot the squad.
edit: or wings or decorative stuff like banners iirc

Head is explicitly allowed to be shot at. See 2nd paragraph on right side on page 16 of BGB.

Grakmar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

angelofdeath8950 wrote:I know this has been answered a million and a half times im sure but how much of a squad do you have to see to be able to shoot at it. Example squad A is behind a rhino and squad B can see the out stretched arm of squad A can squad B shoot at squad A? Thanks

If you can see any part of any model in the squad that is not a gun barrel, head, hand, or foot you can shoot the squad.
edit: or wings or decorative stuff like banners iirc

Head is explicitly allowed to be shot at. See 2nd paragraph on right side on page 16 of BGB.

I stand (well, sit...) corrected. Thanks - I was going from memory.

So if you can see part of one model then you can shoot the squad. So if spays A caused 30 wounds on squad B while only being able to see half of one model in that squad. Squad B has the ability to wipe out that squad bc of being able to see half of a model?

angelofdeath8950 wrote:So if you can see part of one model then you can shoot the squad. So if spays A caused 30 wounds on squad B while only being able to see half of one model in that squad. Squad B has the ability to wipe out that squad bc of being able to see half of a model?

Yes. the unit will get cover saves, but this is 100% possible.

You can kill a whole squad by shooting one guy enough times with the rest of the squad standing behind a building out of sight. Maybe the rest of the squad dies of fright? I got nothing

The rulebook specifically addresses this. They explain that it's not that you can only see that one guy. It's that the rules are in extrapolation of the battlefield, and you're actually shooting at the whole squad, who is really moving around in the cover.

So: Jim the guardsman decides to be a hero and pop out of the trench and shoot at some baddies. 100 Space Marines promptly execute him with a hail of bolter fire that leaves nothing left of Jim spare a puddle of red goo. The rest of the guardsman in Jim's unit weren't dumb enough to even stand up, yet they all die? They never decided, "Hey! Let's start bolting and dashing between terrain like those Eldar folks do, they are sure not to hit us!" I don't understand logics, my brain!!!

Sorry if I seemed like I was striking back at you Grak, just my form of satirical interpretation of the situation ;3

TheMostSlyFox wrote:So: Jim the guardsman decides to be a hero and pop out of the trench and shoot at some baddies. 100 Space Marines promptly execute him with a hail of bolter fire that leaves nothing left of Jim spare a puddle of red goo. The rest of the guardsman in Jim's unit weren't dumb enough to even stand up, yet they all die? They never decided, "Hey! Let's start bolting and dashing between terrain like those Eldar folks do, they are sure not to hit us!" I don't understand logics, my brain!!!

Sorry if I seemed like I was striking back at you Grak, just my form of satirical interpretation of the situation ;3

The rules were not written to be "Real World" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

The reason, if you need a fluff reason, that the rest of the unit dies is:

The SM's saw where the guardsmen went, and shot through the terrain with their explosive projectiles and kill everyone because they knew the location of the unit, because they saw them go there.

Or: Since the models in the battle are in motion, but the ones on the table are static, it is used to simulate shots hitting the unit before they even got into the terrain.

The real reason: The rules tell us this is how it works.

They might have just used thier frag grenades that they have but aren't allowed to actually throw...

Replace all instances of 'Spice Meringue' with 'Other Guardsmen' and lets give the situation some more clarification:

A lone guardsman is sitting outside a 4" high piece of solid terrain whilst the rest of his squad sits comfortably behind it (still in coherency though), having no LoS to any other unit on the table (spare the lone guardsman) and have remained stationary for 3 entire game turns. Another squad of enemy guardsman remain stationary their previous turn, and unleash their volley of lasgun shots from 24" away from this singled out guardsman. They score 3 wounds on the unit 'in cover' as a whole.

...I don't get it

Grakmar wrote:The rulebook specifically addresses this. They explain that it's not that you can only see that one guy. It's that the rules are in extrapolation of the battlefield, and you're actually shooting at the whole squad, who is really moving around in the cover.

Which makes a total mockery out of TLOS. Why do you use TLOS if the models are supposed to be just an abstract representation of a dynamic reality?

It works very well as a game rule. That's all they needed to say. Not some half-arsed contradictory BS.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheMostSlyFox wrote:

...I don't get it

There is nothing to get. It works reasonably well as a game. 40K is not a wargame in the traditional sense where the rules do their utmost to represent historical results on the table top. 40K has game rules that try to provide a good game. Don't worry about "reality." In a galaxy where mutant super heros fight ambulatory fungs, reality is highly subjective anyway.

One of the old city fighting rules mentioned that even the humble lasgun could punch holes in concrete walls. So maybe they are shooting through or under the tank.

It seems believable to me. Deathreaper + grak pretty much got it.


One guardsmen tries to inch around a building corner and the enemy see him and shoot not just him but blast the crap out of the corner of the building where the rest of his squad is hiding, correctly assuming that there's no such thing as a single brave guardsmen and that there's a whole unit of dudes hanging out where the first guy just emerged into los.
The guard get cover saves to represent the building absorbing shots meant to kill them but perhaps, if the volume of fire is overwhelming enough, they all die anyway because the rockcrete that was hiding them is quickly reduced to swiss cheese.

Alternatively, if the obstruction is too hardy a thing to possibly shoot through like a long cliff face at such an angle that it would be the equal of shooting through 200 yards of dirt and stone or an impenetrable ancient hive wall made of a dozen feet of plasteel, you could assume the battle is always in motion even when the model is not.
If you have one guardsmen poking out it's assumed the whole unit is in the process of breaking cover and getting gunned down as they emerge into the open, with cover saves representing them thinking better of it and pulling back rather then terrain directly taking hits. If the volume of fire is sufficient it's assumed that the unit was caught flat footed just as it emerged and no one managed to crawl back out of sight before being gunned down.

Similarly consider if the single model out of cover is a heavy weapon guy so you can fire the important gun while still getting cover for having the majority of units out of sight. It's not that the one guy with the heavy gun in sight isn't dying when you allocate wounds to the less important models out of sight, it's that you're assuming other squad mates scramble in and out of cover to take up the heavy weapon as its wielders die or they get shot at. Which is often difficult to reconcile against model specific targeting like mind war removing the weapon, but basically the rules are the framework for the narrative of the battle, not a word for word retelling of the story.

TheMostSlyFox wrote:Replace all instances of 'Spice Meringue' with 'Other Guardsmen' and lets give the situation some more clarification:

A lone guardsman is sitting outside a 4" high piece of solid terrain whilst the rest of his squad sits comfortably behind it (still in coherency though), having no LoS to any other unit on the table (spare the lone guardsman) and have remained stationary for 3 entire game turns. Another squad of enemy guardsman remain stationary their previous turn, and unleash their volley of lasgun shots from 24" away from this singled out guardsman. They score 3 wounds on the unit 'in cover' as a whole.

...I don't get it

You havent seen actual footage of what a seemingly "solid" wall looks like after its been shot a few times. Hint: films aernt real, and car doors / flimsy pieces of pallet / etc do NOT stop an average assault rifle from penetrating.

i belive he meant that in a game scale where 4 inches is several meters thick he doesnt understand how a common lasgun can penetrate. the answer is that the gover save the rest of the squad would get would be like 2 plus to represent the improbability of any shots getting through

Nemesor wrote:i belive he meant that in a game scale where 4 inches is several meters thick he doesnt understand how a common lasgun can penetrate. the answer is that the gover save the rest of the squad would get would be like 2 plus to represent the improbability of any shots getting through

It would make sense, but then again...