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Hey guys, I was just thinking: How to make a marine statline and rules that accurately represent the fluff, what would it look like? And is it possible to make a ruleset that might integrate these units into the game somehow? Just for fun

BS: 5 WS:5 S:5 T:4(5) W:2 A:2 I:4 LD:9 SV:3+

Everything that marines are supposed to be good at is increased. This makes them worth something like two mortals, instead of just an above average mortal. They don't need high initiative because they typically don't rely on their quickness in battle, and their armor save is powerful enough already. They should also get special rules to represent their advanced anatomy. two attacks because their body itself is a close combat weapon. Space marines are always described as just pulping mortals in close combat.

-to represent their ability to heal, like their larraman cells and such, a feel no pain roll of 5+.
-to represent their body's absorption of poisons, a special rule that increases poison wounding roll by +2 up to 6+
-acute senses to represent their occulobe and increased smell
-the usual space marine special rules
-a bolter that is an assault 2 weapon.
-stubborn
-move through cover. rocky ruins don't stop them! they are great at walking, they already made an animated movie about that. Also, they always run six inches, they need something to get them around the board. They also would not need to hide in their rhinos all the time.
-able to throw grenades that fire like a weapon, cuz' they do it in the books

There you go, it's pretty much jacked up one notch from what a space marine is in the game, with more representation of their natural abilities. They are really good, but not invulnerable. A lascannon or melta could take one out.

what do you think, 35 pts each?

Now how could these marines work in an actual game? Well, they would be something closer to terminators, and a lot more well rounded and prepared for multiple threats. So an easy way to shoehorn them into the existing rules is to use them a bit like terminators, except with mortals in support. That way their elite nature wouldn't screw up the balance of objective games and stuff. Perhaps make them a non-scoring unit or limit the number of marines you can bring... in the lore they are very rare indeed and usually fight in support of mortal armies.

Also, grey knight paladins are pretty much there already... not as good all-around but they have all their power weapons and two wounds. So these marines could work like in a grey knight list. Heck, if we are keeping to the fluff, a grey knight should be a lot more hardcore than that even. Something that a normal space marine couldn't even touch.

Now combine that statline with some cool-looking truescale marines... and who can deny how awesome that is if you're a fan of the fluff and artwork?

The absorbation of poison will wreck most dark eldar lists, I would only allow an army to take 1 squad of 5-10 or 1-5 depending on wether you think a single marine could function well or wether you think they would just flee to fight another day.

Grimnarsmate wrote:The absorbation of poison will wreck most dark eldar lists, I would only allow an army to take 1 squad of 5-10 or 1-5 depending on wether you think a single marine could function well or wether you think they would just flee to fight another day.

Oh, one marine would function all right. Sometimes they just send one and he gets the job done.

I don't think that it would wreck dark eldar. Uh, how many poisoned shots do they get anyway? keep in mind that they can still wound on a six+, or use anti-tank weaponry. there are poisoned weapns that wound on 2+ as well. Sure, if all marines in the normal game had this it would break DE, but we are talking about an elite unit that has to be protected against stuff that can take it down too cheaply. Again, their anatomy is designed to isolate to be resistant against all sorts of poisons.

Just spam agonizers if you are concerned about DE.

Google movie marines.

I see the one codex out there, but I think those marines are too powerful really to accurately fit with the rest of the game. It is too OTT. For instance, all the weapons rules are re-written. I understand that marines might actually be that good in the fluff once in awhile but then again I don't think strength 6 is justified, or initiative 6, or 3 wounds. At that point we are getting into monstrous creature territory.

I like the direction you're taking this. Movie marines were always way too ridiculous. I think if you really want to slot these into the regular game though, you need to tone them down a little. Here's my take on your rules:

WS:4 BS: 5 S:4 T:4 W:2 A:1 I:4 LD:9 SV:3+

(Marines don't need WS:5 to crack skulls in HtH, but they should be extremely accurate shots. S and T of 5 is a bit overpowered - Feel No Pain and 2 Wounds already makes them extremely tough. Don't really need an extra attack, just give every marine a CC weapon to go along with their bolt pistol.)

-to represent their ability to heal, like their larraman cells and such, a feel no pain roll of 5+. (I like this!)
-to represent their body's absorption of poisons, a special rule that increases poison wounding roll by +1 up to 5+ (adding +2 is a bit too much, especially for armies like DE)
-acute senses to represent their occulobe and increased smell (fine with this)
-the usual space marine special rules
-a bolter that is an assault 2 weapon. (how about an option to be Slow and Purposeful and move only 1D6" for the turn instead?
-stubborn (I personally think ATSKNF is better than Stubborn, but to each his own)

(Took out Move through Cover, 6" run, and grenade throwing, they shouldn't be any different than other troops in this regard)

35 pts for that is probably about right.

The direction I'm taking them in my overhaul is more of the walking tank variety - It roughly translates to

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv3+/5++
CC attacks are AP5, Bolter can be a CCW but you lose AP5, Bolter 18" Assault 2 S5 AP4, regular marine rules, 35 Points.

What calgar proposed is probably a bit too expensive - I'd put it at 25 points.

whats up calgarspimp, love the input. Yeah the idea here is that they are not ridiculous, but I'm trying to be as true to all the books I've read and the info about space marines that I can, so that is the number one priority right now... accuracy to the fluff and things like game balance are secondary and can be adjusted by points values when I playtest a bit.

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I like the direction you're taking this. Movie marines were always way too ridiculous. I think if you really want to slot these into the regular game though, you need to tone them down a little. Here's my take on your rules:

WS:4 BS: 5 S:4 T:4 W:2 A:1 I:4 LD:9 SV:3+

(Marines don't need WS:5 to crack skulls in HtH, but they should be extremely accurate shots. S and T of 5 is a bit overpowered - Feel No Pain and 2 Wounds already makes them extremely tough. Don't really need an extra attack, just give every marine a CC weapon to go along with their bolt pistol.)

Well, keep in mind it's t 4(5). meaning that they can be taken down by anything strength 8, it's not so overpowered. There are a lot of weapons that would do this and negate their armor save and feel no pain. But as an elite unit, they need to be somewhat protected from people just spamming crappy shots onto them. In the fluff, things like lasguns pretty much bounce off. They still have no invul and terminators do.

Strength 5 really isn't so much off the charts either. all grey knights get it for standard with hammerhand plus power weaps and other marines usually get furious charge or something. Just keeping true to the fluff, these guys are huge and their armor itself is a deadly weapon. It shouldn't be one point above a guardsman.

I agree with you about the weapon skill though, maybe they don't need that.

-to represent their body's absorption of poisons, a special rule that increases poison wounding roll by +1 up to 5+ (adding +2 is a bit too much, especially for armies like DE)

I was thinking to do that if +2 was too much. But they are supposedly pretty badass with this. In the Iron snakes books, this one dude gets bitten by a viper and his body isolates the poison, and stores it for later use in his own mouth so that he can bite with poison like a snake

-a bolter that is an assault 2 weapon. (how about an option to be Slow and Purposeful and move only 1D6" for the turn instead?

That's a bit complex, but just making them relentless would accomplish the same thing I think. In the fluff they always just fire their bolters and charge into combat.

-stubborn (I personally think ATSKNF is better than Stubborn, but to each his own)

Yeah I like stubborn, but they should be both. These guys have no moral failing. In the game, retreating from combat often means you're just gone.

(Took out Move through Cover, 6" run, and grenade throwing, they shouldn't be any different than other troops in this regard)

35 pts for that is probably about right.

I really think they need the mobility because the idea is that they won't need a rhino so much. If I made a true scale/fluff rhino to go along with these guys it have to be badass as well. And marines are just way to dependent on their metal boxes. In the fluff they just get off their aerial transports and walk wherever they need to, their armor is a transport system as well, they just bound like crazy without getting tired.

The grenade throwing is just cool. and it gives them flexibility in combat, because like in the fluff, they need to be prepared for anything. but there is a chance that it might get too complex, i suppose you might be right.

Anyway, the points could go up depending on if I get around to playtesting them.







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chrisrawr wrote:The direction I'm taking them in my overhaul is more of the walking tank variety - It roughly translates to

WS5 BS5 S5 T5 W2 I5 A2 Ld9 Sv3+/5++
CC attacks are AP5, Bolter can be a CCW but you lose AP5, Bolter 18" Assault 2 S5 AP4, regular marine rules, 35 Points.

What calgar proposed is probably a bit too expensive - I'd put it at 25 points.

I'm trying to keep the weapons the same as in the game, there are bolters everywhere and i don't want to say one bolter is this and one bolter is that. So maybe just making them relentless for now. But to make up for that I could increase ballistic skill.

this is a mod for marines, I think that changing weapons and how they function is a different ballgame... that could probably use a separate mod.

I really think that for game balance they need to be vulnerable to anti-tank. With t5 most antitank will only put one wound on, autocannon rounds will have to go through armor save and feel no pain, and wound allocation makes it worse. That is why I think they just have to be t4(5) and no invul, leave that for fluffy true-scale terminators!

what about WS4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 I 4 A 1 W 1 Ld 8, with a boltgun and grenades?

Testify wrote:what about WS4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 I 4 A 1 W 1 Ld 8, with a boltgun and grenades?

HA! But seriously if one does want to make fluffy marines they would probably need to either modify the whole game, or modify the stats based on who the marines are playing. The problem is that an aspect warrior might very well have similar skills to a marine being nearly immortal and specializing in their form of combat, so WS 4 would be fine for fighting Eldar, while fighting against guard marines should be able to outfight their best units in hand to hand and have a higher ballistic skill than simple veterans or storm troopers.

Buttons wrote:

Testify wrote:what about WS4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 I 4 A 1 W 1 Ld 8, with a boltgun and grenades?

HA! But seriously if one does want to make fluffy marines they would probably need to either modify the whole game, or modify the stats based on who the marines are playing. The problem is that an aspect warrior might very well have similar skills to a marine being nearly immortal and specializing in their form of combat, so WS 4 would be fine for fighting Eldar, while fighting against guard marines should be able to outfight their best units in hand to hand and have a higher ballistic skill than simple veterans or storm troopers.

Why modify the whole game? I don't understand. It's really not that far from other stuff that's out there, *cough* grey knights *cough*. And this game has a point system to balance that out. Supposedly the point system is to balance things out.

Then again I'm not sure if you are arguing with me or against the idea to be honest.

what about WS4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 I 4 A 1 W 1 Ld 8, with a boltgun and grenades?

Not sure if I get you here... have you read the books or are familiar with the lore behind space marines?

Meade wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Testify wrote:what about WS4 BS 4 S 4 T 4 I 4 A 1 W 1 Ld 8, with a boltgun and grenades?

HA! But seriously if one does want to make fluffy marines they would probably need to either modify the whole game, or modify the stats based on who the marines are playing. The problem is that an aspect warrior might very well have similar skills to a marine being nearly immortal and specializing in their form of combat, so WS 4 would be fine for fighting Eldar, while fighting against guard marines should be able to outfight their best units in hand to hand and have a higher ballistic skill than simple veterans or storm troopers.

Why modify the whole game? I don't understand. It's really not that far from other stuff that's out there, *cough* grey knights *cough*. And this game has a point system to balance that out. Supposedly the point system is to balance things out.

Then again I'm not sure if you are arguing with me or against the idea to be honest.

I am saying that if you want fluffy marines you would have to completely change the game. You don't need fluffy marines however.

Buttons wrote:I am saying that if you want fluffy marines you would have to completely change the game. You don't need fluffy marines however.

I still don't get it dude. I'm sorry why would you have to completely change the game? Because it would be unbalanced, or because you would have to change other units to be more in line with the fluff? It seems to me that a lot of things are pretty much where they need to be except for marines, the way they act in the game is very different than the fluff.

This is not a thread about what I need or what the game needs, I just think it would be great if it were possible and a cool thing to make a thread about.

Meade wrote:

Buttons wrote:I am saying that if you want fluffy marines you would have to completely change the game. You don't need fluffy marines however.

I still don't get it dude. I'm sorry why would you have to completely change the game? Because it would be unbalanced, or because you would have to change other units to be more in line with the fluff? It seems to me that a lot of things are pretty much where they need to be except for marines, the way they act in the game is very different than the fluff.

This is not a thread about what I need or what the game needs, I just think it would be great if it were possible and a cool thing to make a thread about.

You would need to change marines because the S, T, WS, BS stat system doesn't scale well. If you make fluffy marines than you are underrating Eldar compared to marines, a single marine may be able to kill a company of guardsmen by himself, but a single Dark Eldar could handle a squad of Imperial Guard in hand to hand with ease, I think this quote from lexicanum illustrates the difference between DE and a regular human "within the gladiatorial arenas a single Wych is more than a match for any ten human warriors."

Buttons wrote:You would need to change marines because the S, T, WS, BS stat system doesn't scale well. If you make fluffy marines than you are underrating Eldar compared to marines, a single marine may be able to kill a company of guardsmen by himself, but a single Dark Eldar could handle a squad of Imperial Guard in hand to hand with ease, I think this quote from lexicanum illustrates the difference between DE and a regular human "within the gladiatorial arenas a single Wych is more than a match for any ten human warriors."

Well, for example I just finished the Iron Snakes book by Abnett. In the book some dark eldar crashland on a backwoods imperial planet, and one space marine is sent to cleanse them. They almost get the best of him (probably around ten or a little more I didn't make count), but he does the job.

A gladiatorial arena is a specialized combat that the wych specializes in, so that might have something to do with context. But you might be right here, I haven't really read enough about eldar vs human to know. Guardsmen are trained warriors, and eldar are definitely faster and usually have more attacks like the fluff says, so I'm happy for now with that. Most people will be, people are far more familiar with the way marines are supposed to be.

In any case I think to have a mod that modifies the stat of a Marine like that, it might be better for smaller games, like Killzone, I tried playing it a few times. That's why I made the thread so people can input on the fluff and how well the stats reflect it. Obviously, everything can't always be perfect and I still enjoy playing the game but I would get a kick out of playing with marines that behaved and looked like they do in the fluff. I never said it's easy though, I get what you're saying.