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Hey, I'm considering fielding some Scouts in he Chaos Space Marine army that I'm working on at the moment. However as there's no rules at the moment (hey if renegades are in the up coming codex then who knows), so I'm wondering if you guys have any idea on how I would go about fielding them? At the moment I'm thinking of just using the existing Scout rules from the current marne codex, but do you think I should change anything about them? Ie Marks would be a no no to me. These guys are still only starting out on their path to damnation, and I'm playing an undivided army anyhow, so I don't think I'd see myself fielding any bloated "Plague Scouts" any time in the future. But as for unit upgrades and the like, what do y'all think?

Oh and fluff wise I'd note that these guys do in fact exist (despite reading to the contary on other boards). Recently reading the novel "Blood Gorgons" (a great inspiration for my army ^^), the Chapter recruits Neophytes (similar to the Black Templars). However there they're equipted with power armour early on, but personally I'd like to have some guys in carapace armour floating about as a fun little unit.

Anyhow, I digress a little. I'd like to note that this would be for purely casual gaming only, so I doubt that the guys that I play with would object too much about new units.

So thoughts?

What we do for stuff like this is make a player create two legal lists (IE: for a 1500 point game, either one 1000 and one 500 or two 750s) and run them as allies.

25 scouts and a Captain comes in at 500. Attach that to your other list, and play them as one list, each using their rules for their troops (always going on the same player turn).

No need to reinvent the wheel. Only penalty you suffer is 100 points for an HQ you may not have taken otherwise.

I don't see why not that a particular Chaos Warband still applies their Imperial Doctrine in training. Traditionally new Chaos Marines were made by the strongest slaves in their stock with the rites and application of the geneseed done by a quack-apothecary. The Iron Warriors has a grotesque device. With a equally stupid name that escapes me that basically fed pregnant women chemicals and turned them into bloated birthing vats that could create new Marines fresh from the womb.

At the moment I'm sitting on almost 1000pts of Chaos. Additional units like Terminators, a Landraider, a third dreadnought, and hopefully some scouts could be interchanged and added to this to make it into a 1500pts list hopefully. I'm not to into sticking on another army list onto my present one for my larger games, just a particular unit (as I'd probably get some dirty looks from my marine opponent)-keeping the standard force organisation limits. It would be neat to have a Chaplain in my list as a HQ choice seeing as Dark Apostles have been done away with (currently I'm running Aspiring Champions as Dark Apostles, with a kind of cult leader planned for my Lord), but I'm thinking of just adding a small ten man squad (or two fives) onto my army, rather than a few hundred points of them-and taking other units might mess with the feeling of the army.

My army's fluff is a little vague right now, but goes along the lines of them being an offshot warband of the Word Bearers. Highly religious, but nomadic, and having a large cult following- slaves to tend to menial tasks, ex-guardsmen-who's job it is to keep to slaves in check, but are pretty much just a step up from them. Additionally they'd have the fealty of a small number of renegade marines, and be activally recruiting from the world's that swear fealty to them. Thus I'm using the current Chaos codex rather than a marine one, but would like to include a few fun units for friendly games (heavily religious cult guardsman could be fun too, but they're off my list of concerns right now, and I already have a few of them as a part of my In the Emperor's Name warband).

^^ That bit of fluff sounds neat, but a little too inhuman for my marines Shadowbrand. ...By that I mean its a little Fabius Bile esque, or more like Dan Abnett's interpretation of Chaos, rather than the Mongol raider style marines I'm thinking off.

I find it a little odd though that its difficult to find any images of chaos scouts that others have created. To me it seems to be a nice idea, and based on that piece of art that I linked, could produce some cool looking models. Anyhow, if anyone has anymore input on the subject It'd be most appreciated.

Word Bearer's then? I'd make them disciples who have yet to undergro the rites of marinehood.

Think Imperial cult with spikes and eight-sided stars. And I agree. The fluff for the Daemoncubala *It's actual* name is pretty demented however, their Chaos Marines. Tact and morality have been washed away with eons of debauchery that would make the denizens of Sodom blush.

But yes, typically like the Blood Claws of the Wolves. As a junior Chaos Marine, you start with power armor, hope you fare better then the previous owner fo the armor.

The reason you won't find too many images of "Chaos Scouts" is because they don't really do anything like that outside of "Blood Gorgons" and Henry Zou's silliness.
Chaos has always been portrayed as being more about "stealing" already existing forces rather than making them new.

They do not have the capabilities to make "true Astartes" in the way that the Loyalists do with their Scouts/Neophytes. They're vultures and scavengers, turning Loyalists to their cause or accepting them with open arms when they fall.

The forces which have traditionally been "scouts" for the Traitor Legions are converts from the Imperial Guard/PDF.

In regards to your fluff, it's actually established that there has never been any defections from the Word Bearers, they actively hunt down and destroy any that have tried so there couldn't be a Word Bearers offshoot in theory.

Regarding the scouts, the Soul Drinkers use Scouts in their novels, although they are more renegade than Chaos.

In my Alpha Legion army I used Scouts to represent cultists, then when cultists were cut from the book I used them as a counts as lesser daemons. The points and stats of scouts and daemons is virtually the same, you can just explain the deepstrike rules by saying they're a stealth unit that appears where needed. Obviously the downside is you can't use their guns if you use them as a daemons counts as.

I like the idea that these guys would be a little like the Black Templar's Scouts. The slaves would be there to take care of things like keeping the guns working and the armour oiled, but the scouts would be there to learn from their marine masters. They'd bear the personnel banners of their lords, perhaps carry their weapons (big swords strapped across the scout's backs), and be covered in purity seals and scripture (but much less than their masters, who are like walking shrines in my army, more of the level of the Black Templar models....yeah....I overkill the scripture a little). Tabards on some could be fun too. However in games they'd just be fielded as one squad, perhaps with one carrying a large banner (thus why I'm conflicted on whether it should be allowed for them to have the mark of chaos glory). Similar to the Black Templars, but adding scouts to existing units would be a bit too much of a rules conflict I think.

@ Kanluwen

I know that GW's established that marines aren't made in large numbers outside the loyal chapters, but there's been some writers that have gone against this as you've mentioned. Fabius Bile goes about producing them, as do the Apophcaries of renegade chapters still create marines too. However I'd like to think that its a big galaxy and anything can happen, thus why for creative reasons why I'd like to stick some neopytes into my current army. Hey the carapace armour would break up all the power armour and give them a more rag tag look, and well I'm just wanting to have a little fun (not chaotic Grey Knights fun like my local GW's staffer's have though).

@ KorPhaeron77

^^ When I say Word Bearers I'm just thinking of having a heavily religious army. Perhaps my warband's a renegade chapter that's being guided by the old veterans of the Word Bearers (not traitors, but guides for new marines that have been taken into the fold). However I already have 20 Lesser Daemons in my army in the guise of Horrors and Wood Elf Dryads, so I'd like to avoid that conflict. =)

Wyrmalla wrote:
I'd like to think that its a big galaxy and anything can happen

And with that in mind, go for it. Seriously, there is probably a legion out there that uses scouts, if not then make one up that does use them. As for rules, try the scouts from one of the marine codexes. If it's casual play, I don't see why there would be problems.

Supposedly, if there's gonna be a Chaos Legions Codex and a Chaos Renegades Codex, I can see the renegades codex having Chaos Scouts.

Wyrmalla wrote:@ Kanluwen

I know that GW's established that marines aren't made in large numbers outside the loyal chapters, but there's been some writers that have gone against this as you've mentioned. Fabius Bile goes about producing them, as do the Apophcaries of renegade chapters still create marines too. However I'd like to think that its a big galaxy and anything can happen, thus why for creative reasons why I'd like to stick some neopytes into my current army. Hey the carapace armour would break up all the power armour and give them a more rag tag look, and well I'm just wanting to have a little fun (not chaotic Grey Knights fun like my local GW's staffer's have though).

I'm not trying to be a fuddyduddy or say "You're as bad as Chaos Grey Knights!", mind you. I just don't really see a necessity or any real way to justify "Chaos Scouts" without going to Henry Zou/C.S. Goto levels of shenanigans.

What we've seen for quite awhile is that the idea of the Traitor Astartes is more that they already know exactly what they'll be hitting, and have no qualms about doing dirty tactics while wearing their power armor. That's the whole reason the Loyalists have the Scouts more or less: they're the "peasants" of the "knightly" force, meaning they can do the things their betters consider to be unsuitable for their honorable selves.

I really do think your best bet is to have "mortal" Scouts, the kinds of folk who would be able to blend in with the general populace.

Oh I wouldn't intend for them to be infiltrators, they'd be front line troops. They're are instances in the fluff where marines where carapace armour, but anyhow I'd just like to equipt my new recruits with carapace rather than power as a way of representing their unproven nature. I don't see it being difficult for my warband to bring along some new recruits to a battle to show what they can do (its easy enough to work outside the establish fluff), I'm thinking that it'd be nice to pin down some rules on how to represent them in actual games right now. I like the idea of the marines being waited on by fledglings like knights as you said. Like I said the human slaves would take care of menial tasks like preparing food, whilst the neophytes would be in charge of preparing their master's arms before a battle, etc. If a basic human were to ever do battle alongside one of the marines then they would be in the form of cultists units armed with flak armour/cloth and auto weaponary or the like, or perhaps for the dedicated security based slaves who serve aboard the warband's ships plate armour and pikes or the like. I want my scouts to be actual proto marines, not the scout statline and a human in heavy armour (as I've mentioned I already have a few of these for my skirmish scale games warbands).


A quick concept of what I'm going for. He's less military/spec ops looking than the codex scout, more of the medieval look. Chain and plate instead of cloth and plasteel. Parts of the armour would have been standard astartes scout issue, whilst others are clearly made in the warband's foundries. Just a basic idea of how they would differ from the standard loyalists.

Wyrmalla wrote:Oh I wouldn't intend for them to be infiltrators, they'd be front line troops. There are instances in the fluff where marines wear carapace armour, but anyhow I'd just like to equip my new recruits with carapace rather than power as a way of representing their unproven nature.

Not to be argumentative or dissuade you from your attempt at making skirmishers(the best term I can think of for your proposal), but the instances of full Astartes wearing carapace armor are usually associated with them being more of the "Scout" mindset.

People like Telion or Naaman, for example. They recognize that what they do, even if it is looked down upon by most Astartes, is some of the most important work that can be done. Things like preparing the battlefield, marking landing zones, etc.

I'd say the active role in a battle that the neophytes would have is to either watch what their masters do and learn from it (though they would have been training for a time, thus this would probably be frowned upon in full combat actions), or the more likely case that they would try and prove themselves-striking out at units, their masters backing them up if the see it necessary or willing. They'd be a bit more unrestrained than the veteran marines, much like Blood Claws, doing what they could to prove themselves (well this is a bit of a generalisation as surely they'd be neophytes with more of a self preservation instict, but whether this would be frown upon is objectable). I like the idea of a bunch of young braves stalking about, weighting up their enemies (some of their number talking about tactics, whilst others call them fools and bay for blood) before charging at them and trying to be intimidating.Covering them in icons and litany, and giving them a generally rag tag look (bare metal parts amidst the warband's colours) would go to exemplify this look. =)

Yes presumably, though I do recall a chaos marine wearing carapace armour in a short story based around a small squad of marines. This presumably was just a bit of a discriptive point, but hey normal marines might go so far as to swap out their armour for any number of reasons. However that's not exactly the point of discussion here. ^^

I'm usually pretty wary of non-codex units being included but I think marine Scouts are so bad i wouldn't mind if a Chaos player wanted to run them as a troop choice. I'd rather Scouts than Plague Marines, definitely.

Sure I could see chaos scouts. They've got to get their recruits from somewhere. That drawing is sick, btw.

GreatGunz wrote:Sure I could see chaos scouts. They've got to get their recruits from somewhere. That drawing is sick, btw.

They don't get recruits.

They get full-blooded Astartes.

Which does make me wonder why we haven't actually seen Aspirants/Neophytes going renegade. Probably has something to do with the fact that they're watched heavily by their tutors or something and just never get the opportunity.

Probably execute them if they do start to fall and can't be swayed back properly as it's not always chaos when they go renegade. Could also be any brain washing they go through, different chapters and different ways of course.

Wyrmalla wrote:My army's fluff is a little vague right now, but goes along the lines of them being an offshot warband of the Word Bearers. Highly religious, but nomadic, and having a large cult following- slaves to tend to menial tasks, ex-guardsmen-who's job it is to keep to slaves in check, but are pretty much just a step up from them. Additionally they'd have the fealty of a small number of renegade marines, and be activally recruiting from the world's that swear fealty to them. Thus I'm using the current Chaos codex rather than a marine one, but would like to include a few fun units for friendly games (heavily religious cult guardsman could be fun too, but they're off my list of concerns right now, and I already have a few of them as a part of my In the Emperor's Name warband).

I find it a little odd though that its difficult to find any images of chaos scouts that others have created. To me it seems to be a nice idea, and based on that piece of art that I linked, could produce some cool looking models. Anyhow, if anyone has anymore input on the subject It'd be most appreciated.

You might want to check out the Soul Reapers codex at www.thecodexproject.com, It's a pretty good unofficial chaos codex that has some scout options, sounds like it might fit your army for friendly games, it's improved a bit to be on 5E levels but not too strong.

At the moment I don't have the current Marine codex to hand, so this is based purely upon recollection. Anyhow as I understand it Scouts now have "And they shall have no fear". Now would it be objectible for them to exchange this for the Mark of Chaos Glory instead for free (seeing as the codex marine rule is bent enough, at least according to one of my opponents), or rather charge them the standard cost? I want to include a scout with a squad banner in a similar vein to standard chaos units (sept the neophytes in my eyes would have a more bedraggled one, in contrast to the iron star, scripture covered ones the marines have), thus the Mark would be displayed by this. However that also brings up the thought that due to me fielding daemons the scouts could be used as a summoning point. Would this be adverse to people or not?

....Anyhow. On the subject of scouts becoming traitor I'd say that if the real marines turned then yes, of course there would be renegade scouts. Whether the scout company primarrily would be the seed of heresy within a Chapter is debatable. I mean it could be that the genestock from a planet has become corrupted unbeknownst to the chapter (read Codex: Daemon Hunters, reasons why your fighting other armies section). Thus the scouts having been tainted could turn despite their chapter indoctrination. They would presumably be culled unless others turned traitor too, but it makes you think. I justify the existance of neopytes without the black carapace existing within a chaos warband by saying well, why the hell not? I mean not every warband has the mindset that they should abandon the old chapter practices and just churn out untrained marines in power armour. I don't see with this so objectible, like I said its a big galaxy and anything can happen (....so youknow stop sticking to established canon so much and get creative). ^^

On the modeling front I'd note some progress. The models are ordered, but today, just happening to be in the area for once, I wondered into my FLGS and picked up a squad of Space Wolves. This was mostly to add a bit more variety to my existing force and give them a bit more a marauding look, but I also bought it in the hopes of Wolf Scout conversion parts too. Unfortunately there may be a good selection of heads (56 to be exact), but there's only one scout arm variant, and neither is that one even bare armed like the old scout models. So I'm a little at a loss right now as for conversion parts. I know I'll just greenstuff most of the bits, but the arms are a bit of a bother. I've thought of using the new Chatachan arms or the existing Marauder ones, but doubt I have enough left for a full squad (well unless I want them all pointing and holding magnoculars....Chatachan heavy weapons teams come often in bits bags....). Any suggestions on any third part bits sites that could sell me some bare, muscled arms? Pupet-War may be an idea, but I'd like some input please.

@ Meade

Is there any actual rules on the site, as in the format of a GW codex, or just ideas for units listed in paragraph format? I'd like to use something that follows rules produced by GW rather than a fan made unit purely to avoid the compulsary "its beardy because someone just made up the rules themselves" pun. =/

Oh and @ GreatGunz. Tah, ten minute sketchiness is always fun (you damn well better be referring to the later one... Joking....well a little). =D

Aye, although the idea of Legion scouts seems highly unlikely in my mind, Renegades, to me is the opposite. There is a strong chance there would be active scouts when the chapter turns, and Power armour is going to be tougher to come by for renegades as they pull away from the Imperium.

With their knowledge and decent into Chaos not as 'compleate' as the Legions, they might well also still continue to use 'scouts' as a entry point for their chapter, just in a lot more of a bloodthirsty manner.

So World Eater Scouts, seems very unlikely, but Dragon Warriors or Hakanor's Reavers, possible.

Wyrmalla wrote:
@ Meade

Is there any actual rules on the site, as in the format of a GW codex, or just ideas for units listed in paragraph format? I'd like to use something that follows rules produced by GW rather than a fan made unit purely to avoid the compulsary "its beardy because someone just made up the rules themselves" pun. =/

Check it out. It's made as a pdf that just functions like your typical 5E GW codex, of high quality and with fluff and everything but the more people playtest it the better it will get. Go to the site and 'play test codices'. The unit you are looking for is 'Dacian Raiders'.

For friendly games, as I said... just tell your opponent they can use whatever forgeworld unit they want or do something else cool. The guys that made the site are real wargaming veterans have actually been in the game design process before, so they really know what they are doing.

@Meade

The rules don't seem as focussed to me as a GW codex, more of a creative endeavor. I would expect them to work fair enough in a game, but I don't know how comftable I would feel using them (not a fan of fandexs') for a full army, or just the one squad. =/

Now on a hypocratic note..... Ultimately I think that something like this would suit my needs. Admitedly thier my own rules, and pretty much just a slightly tweaked scout listing. ^^


Chaos Neopyte Squad

Type: Infanty, Troops

Wargear:
Scout Armour, Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat, Frak and Krak Grenades, Mark of Chaos Glory

Upgrades:

Add up to five neophytes

Any model may replace his boltgun with either a shotgun or great weapon* for free

One neopyte may be upgraded to an ascendant (scout sergeant). This conveys +1 attack, leadership and he carries a personel icon
The ascendant may purchase melta bombs

Up to two models may exchange their boltguns for one of the following: Flamer, Meltagun, Plasmagun

The squad may exchange their Mark of Chaos Glory for the following, if the army's leader has the same mark (an army's leader is its most expensive single HQ choice miniature):
Mark of Khorne (all neophytes recieve +1 attack, acendent gains furious charge)
Mark of Nurgle (all neophytes recieve +1 toughness, acendent gains feel no pain)
Mark of Slaanesh (all neopytes receive + 1 initiative, acendent may exchange his bolter for a sonic blaster)
Mark of Tzeench (all neopytes recieve a 5+ invulnerable save, acendent is classed as a psyker and gains the doombolt power)

* A two handed close combat weapon which strikes at +2 strength and -2 Initiative (sorry I can't quite remember the3.5 rules for these, so someone please correct me ^^)




Right, so clarifcation on the preposed rules. The additional close combat weapon that appears in the neophyte's base profile represents the increase barbarity compared to a normal astartes. This is based on normal Chaos marines having them, compared to the standard bolter + bolt pistol of codex marines. The ascendant represents a very promising neophyte that most likely will be going on his way to becoming an aspiring champion in no time. He's my swap for a sergeant, but works differently somewhat as he's still a trainee, but has been given the right to carry one of the warband's personel icons. Acess to special weapons is a doozy to me though. I stuck it in there to offset all the rules that I took out from the codex rules and make them more of a combat unit. These guys aren't meant to be sneaking about the battlefield, thus no sniper rifles, scout, camo cloaks, instead emphasising the barbaric nature that chaos marines take. Similarly the Mark of Chaos Glory is amongst the squad's basic kit as a way to combat a codex scout's free acess to "And they shall know no fear". The great weapons further the idea of savagery, and just happen to be a fun little weapon which I think would look neat (despite probably not intending to actually equipt the squad with them).

The last bit on the marks is something I added for a bit of fun. Its in there purely for forces that have entirely fallen to one of the particular gods (in 3.5 if your Lord had a mark then your army's force selection differed slightly). They may well be a little bent, I don't know. I thought that it would be an idea to gice the Ascendent the free ability due to the points cost of marks being high, and Neophytes being a bit weaker than standard marines. I doubt that it'll make much difference for one model in a squad to have these abilities, but doing anything else would probably be considered a little overkill (ie giving them all furious charge, or - 1 BS, + 1 WS in the case of Khorne as these guys aren't full marines, nor fully interned in the ways of the cult). Again I probably won't end up using these particular rules as I play an undivided army (well with count as Khorne Berserkers in my 2000pts list in the form of extra fanatical marines....), but hey someone else might use them as a jumping point.

I'll leave this post at that then. If people like the rules enough I'll tidy them up, add points values etc.

Proposed rules thread, with updated rules and points values.