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I'm fairly new to the game. I played it a while ago (played Daemonhunters), got out of it for a few years, came back, played SM, then left again. Now, I play a combination of Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines. However, the one rule I had never dealt with before was reserves. That is, until today.

The first few games my friend (who was completely new to the game) and I played we used reserves/deep strike, but never really read the rulebook entry on it, basically playing it wrong, with my friend using his PosiRelay (he plays Tau) and coming in pretty much whenever he felt like it after the first turn. Today, however, we did actually look at the rules, and they are... not good. I don't know about the previous editions, but the way Reserves works is completely counter-intuitive to the way reserves works in pretty much every other aspect of life. My biggest qualm with the rule is this: Why, if we are holding something in reserve, are we forced to take it out ASAP? As the general of an army, why am I so handicapped to potentially throwing my entire army out piecemeal and having it get torn apart, or forcing it out before the enemy is where I want them? In what way does that make sense? In real life, you don't throw your army out randomly, and units that are held in reserve (special forces units) would be released at the behest of the general/commanding officer and are sent out where he wants them when he wants them. Like Deep Striking, this makes little sense (because as we all know, teleportation and airdrop technology jumped backwards 41,000 years in the 41st millennium).

Why would you not have the option whether or not to bring them out? Keep the rolls to bring them out the same, but give the option of bringing them out or keeping them in.

You are never forced to bring a unit out of reserves, the rolls give you the option to bring the units in.

@Squidmanlolz: Page 94, under Rolling for reserves, it is "must" not a "may".

The BRB (and GW as well, it seems) appear to think that we don't want things in reserves, so we have to get them out ASAP, because they'll... catch fire or something? Apparently no one at GW thought that holding your forces back for two turns could be tactically advisable.

It's a balance thing. Some armies would literally be unbeatable going second and holding reserves till the end.

If you want such abilities, look at Autarch, Tigurius, Hive Tyrant and other characters.

The rule makes reservation is semi-random process which is fine. Some characters and upgrades give you controls over random process which in turns make the strategy elements within the game more interesting.

Perhaps what you suggest will be better, but the rule affects everybody so it is not all that bad.

Because after turn 9 they go from reserves, to the twilight zone otherwise known as RFP'd.

McNinja wrote:Today, however, we did actually look at the rules, and they are... not good. I don't know about the previous editions, but the way Reserves works is completely counter-intuitive to the way reserves works in pretty much every other aspect of life. My biggest qualm with the rule is this: Why, if we are holding something in reserve, are we forced to take it out ASAP? As the general of an army, why am I so handicapped to potentially throwing my entire army out piecemeal and having it get torn apart, or forcing it out before the enemy is where I want them? In what way does that make sense? In real life, you don't throw your army out randomly, and units that are held in reserve (special forces units) would be released at the behest of the general/commanding officer and are sent out where he wants them when he wants them. Like Deep Striking, this makes little sense (because as we all know, teleportation and airdrop technology jumped backwards 41,000 years in the 41st millennium).

Why would you not have the option whether or not to bring them out? Keep the rolls to bring them out the same, but give the option of bringing them out or keeping them in.

The answer to all of your questions is: Because the rules say you have to bring reserves on as soon as they are available.

Remember The rules were not written to be "Real World" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle.

What would happen in the real world has nothing to do with the RAW.

Also - you're not the general. The 1500 points youre playing is a small portion of the battle, not the whole of it.

Your reserves turn up with unpredictability because of balance.

I don't think reserves alway turn up at the right time in real life, they get bogged down, called away, engaged by the enemy etc etc etc. So they turn up when they can.

Also Basimpo the rule book is clear on what happens to unit that are not on the board by the end of the game.

McNinja wrote:The BRB (and GW as well, it seems) appear to think that we don't want things in reserves, so we have to get them out ASAP, because they'll... catch fire or something? Apparently no one at GW thought that holding your forces back for two turns could be tactically advisable.

Or maybe they thought that a game in which one player keeps everything in reserve for 6 turns and then jets out with fast moving units to snatch objectives at the last minute might not be the most fun way for everyone to spend their time...?

Even in real life, Reserve forces don't always arrive exactly where and when their commander would like. if you read the accounts of real life battles, delays or even total failures to arrive due to communications breakdowns or unexpected obstacles (vehicular breakdowns, bridges being out, enemy ambushes delaying the support column, etc.) are extremely common. Note also the Outflank rules give a 2/3 chance that the unit arrives on a random table side, as opposed to you choosing. In both Outflanking and Reserves, GW is simulating the fog of war.

insaniak wrote:

McNinja wrote:The BRB (and GW as well, it seems) appear to think that we don't want things in reserves, so we have to get them out ASAP, because they'll... catch fire or something? Apparently no one at GW thought that holding your forces back for two turns could be tactically advisable.

Or maybe they thought that a game in which one player keeps everything in reserve for 6 turns and then jets out with fast moving units to snatch objectives at the last minute might not be the most fun way for everyone to spend their time...?

Also this.

It's hands down my biggest gripe of the game. I...hate...the...reserves...rules...

Unfortunately, as has been pointed out, there isn't much you can do about it until you change objectives from a last minute mad dash. The playtest PDF that was leaked awhile back did a pretty awesome job of resolving both situations. I'm hoping that those changes make it into 6th.

You also have to take into account the short time frame that the game would cover if it were actually happening. In real life a six turn game would be a few minutes max on the battlefield.

Ghaz wrote:You also have to take into account the short time frame that the game would cover if it were actually happening. In real life a six turn game would be a few minutes max on the battlefield.

Totally agree with this, in a real-life situation your reinforcements arriving within a minute or two of planned time is pretty good! Especially considering it's a warzone. I always pictured a game turn being roughly 1min real-time.

If you could hold it till when every you wanted then BA with an all DP army and Vanguard vets would win every game. Juts wait untill the last turn, drop 6 units of assault marines and Vanguard vets on any objective.

I've always thought about reserves not as something the general has held back (This would be represented by holding something in the back of the field) but more like reinforcements being called up. You know they are comming, you just don't know when

True, but there's still the DS rules, you still have the chance to scatter into narnia.

Also, I was just thinking, there should be another mechanic: reinforcements function like reserves do now, and the new reserves is a single unit that can be brought in at any time by DS, outflanking, etc.

liturgies of blood wrote:I don't think reserves alway turn up at the right time in real life, they get bogged down, called away, engaged by the enemy etc etc etc. So they turn up when they can.

This. Actual combat is very chaotic. I find the random nature of reserve arrival in this game to be perfectly logical.

No plan survives first contact with the enemy.

McNinja wrote:I'm fairly new to the game. I played it a while ago (played Daemonhunters), got out of it for a few years, came back, played SM, then left again. Now, I play a combination of Necrons, Dark Eldar, and Space Marines. However, the one rule I had never dealt with before was reserves. That is, until today.

The first few games my friend (who was completely new to the game) and I played we used reserves/deep strike, but never really read the rulebook entry on it, basically playing it wrong, with my friend using his PosiRelay (he plays Tau) and coming in pretty much whenever he felt like it after the first turn. Today, however, we did actually look at the rules, and they are... not good. I don't know about the previous editions, but the way Reserves works is completely counter-intuitive to the way reserves works in pretty much every other aspect of life. My biggest qualm with the rule is this: Why, if we are holding something in reserve, are we forced to take it out ASAP? As the general of an army, why am I so handicapped to potentially throwing my entire army out piecemeal and having it get torn apart, or forcing it out before the enemy is where I want them? In what way does that make sense? In real life, you don't throw your army out randomly, and units that are held in reserve (special forces units) would be released at the behest of the general/commanding officer and are sent out where he wants them when he wants them. Like Deep Striking, this makes little sense (because as we all know, teleportation and airdrop technology jumped backwards 41,000 years in the 41st millennium).

Why would you not have the option whether or not to bring them out? Keep the rolls to bring them out the same, but give the option of bringing them out or keeping them in.

Sounds like he was not that far wrong about how to use the relay. It does to jobs. Make it really really easy to get one unit in that you really want each turn, and second keep the bulk of your reserve in reserve. I don't find the Reserve rule itself to be to bad, but the DS rule really does nerf DS capable CC units. Landing withing a few hundred yards of a target in the kind of chaos that is 41st Millienum battlefield really ain't that bad. WWII Jump troops were doing good to all be in a mile of each other on some of the drops.