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Hello Dakka,

I suck at wargamming my losses far out weigh my wins and I'm getting a bit tired of it, but in all honesty I struggle to see where I went wrong and what I should do next time. Last game (my third game of V3), I played against my usual opponent. I have a German Aufklarungs Co and my opponent has British Paras.

Roughly my list is HQ - Puma - 3 Patrols of 3 Pumas. 1 AA plt (the armoured trucks with the real nasty guns). 3 Tigers. Nebelwerfers and leFH 10.5
Even more roughly his list - 17 pdr AT guns, 6 pdr AT guns, Howitzers, mortars, I think 3 platoons of paras and 1 in jeeps.

The mission was breakthrough, I was the attacker.

We placed objectives and he deployed everything (mobile reserves and the lack of vehicles meant he could deploy everything at once)
His 17pdrs 9in wheat fields) covered my reinforcement zone, which was seductively close to the objectives.)

His 6 pdrs covered my deployment area, with spotters on high ground. To my immediate front a platoon of paras in a village, behind them the mortars, behind them the howitzers (in wheat fields).


So I deployed my tigers, 1 patrol of pumas, the nebel werfers and artillery. I kept back 2 patrols of pumas and the AA guns.
I figured I'd try to keep him busy, and the reinforcements would make a last minute grab for the objectives.

Here's what happened.
My puma patrol (with CHQ), tried to use Eyes and Ears on his dug in, gtg paras to my immediate front. 3 failed rolls later and the CHQ finally lifts gtg. Great, vets conceal i'm hitting on 5's. I try to hit them with artillery and rockets, but he's well spaced and I take 1 stand. The tigers open up but thanks to their 3+ save and a failed FP test, I inflict no more casualties.

As usual I forget to make a storm trooper move.

His turn....jeeps rush to take objectives, 6 pdrs blow away my Pumas, they fail their motivation test, bye bye CHQ. His spotters mange to see my nebelwerfers thanks to their smoke trails and the howitzers range in, in subsequent turns and thanks to their all guns repeat rule they rip the NWs apart who fail to unpin. The paras in front of me get into the houses.

I think from then on I was fighting a losing battle. When the reinforcements finally start arriving, his 17pdrs rip them apart. The tigers get assaulted by paras, which thanks to their TA3, manage to bail them.

It didn't take long for me to require a company motivation test so I auto failed.

Gutted, all those hours of painting and putting terrrain together and its a white wash.

My thoughts....I could have deployed everything together, perhaps I should have, but my deployment zone is quite small. I could have used smoke to stop his 6 pdrs from firing that is provided I could range in (needing a 6 from 3 dice rolls).

Forgetting stormtrooper is unforgivable.

Mostly I'm struggling to deal with dug in, gtg vets, they are just so hard to shift.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.

Hang-

V3 has made this harder, but you mostly have to Assault Brit Paratroopers to get them out of a fight. They are very tough, but they dont have many stands, so you can get them making Platoon Morale tests fairly easily.

List construction:
- The German 10.5 Arty is not that efficient for the points - no real special rules. You may want to consider replacing these with cheap mortars or more Nebelwerfers. Arty is for smoke and pinning -- anything else accomplished is gravy.
- With the Recce Company, you are going to have a hard time with your core platoons doing much. Now, if you face the correct opponent, you can murder them (halftracks, light tanks, etc.). But with the small platoon size - 3 Pumas - AND the frailty of the Armoured Car, you are going to be rolling Platoon Morale checks all the time.
- I have never seen a Company like this played. It looks like a fragile (but cool looking!!) Company

Play:
- Smoke, smoke, smoke. Use smoke to cover your advance. Get close to the 17pdrs and take them out first. Then the 6pdrs.
- Did you disengage with your Pumas? They should have only been shot at once per gun, and I am assuming at range, so 5+ to hit the Vets.
- Did you use your Recce move to get closer to him?
- You have to keep your Pumas safe -- too fragile and small unit size as stated above.
- Trying to shoot Brit paras out with the Tigers is not an optimal move. Game will be over by the time you take them out. Your priority has to be killing the AT Assets -- 17pdrs -- then run your Tigers up with nothing to worry about. You Pumas should be able to race forward under the cover of smoke and kill the 17pdrs, though it would probably cost you at least 1 Puma patrol, as they are so fragile.

Are you playing on a terrain heavy board or a pool table?

Thats what I can think of right now.

My opinion: Aside from a bout of bad rolling, (failing three GTG skill checks in a row, ouch!) Too few bodies on the field, in between three Puma patrols and 3 tigers you're just short of 1,100 points, all for a dozen vehicles, of which only 3 roll more than 2 dice when shooting on the move. Consider that by dropping one Tiger you could add a Gepanzerte panzergren platoon and get 7 seven stands of CV MG infantry riding around in halftracks with the absolutely brutal Mounted Assault rules (I should know, my poor strelk have been on the business end of it a few times).

Getting concealed, GTG, and especially, dug in, veterans, out of their hidey holes takes a LOT of time if you're planning to do it with shooting, considering that on average only 1/3 of your successful shots are even going to make it to the firepower stage, you're either going to need a lot of dice blasting away or you're going to have to try a different tactic (like assaulting them) to get them out. I don't see your current list having the amount of shots necessary to shift paras. Even my tankovy companies spewing 40 dice a turn take a decent while to inflict significant casualties on GTG vets, your puma patrols and Tigers throw the same amount, but at over twice the points and with nearly half the dice at a worse firepower rating.

Additionally, if you're getting shot to bits by concealed, GTG troops, you have nothing to lose by dropping a smoke template as you're already firing at the equivalent to hit penalty.Give them a taste of their own medicine by having to throw some 6's to hit you.

My only other advice would be that if you're playing recon, you are one fast force, especially on roads, why bother trying to go through paras, ATG's, and howitzers when you have the option to go around them? On breakthrough you should be able to place the objective somewhere where he's going to have to move to prevent you from getting it. The second those paras pick themselves up off the floor they become much easier to kill.

well first

dont forget stormtrooper moves

use cover along with stormtrooper.

shoot the observers first with everything you have

focus shots on things that can hurt you first, so take out the gun teams before the infantry.

focus on the winning condition, make the objectives as far apart as possible so that he can not guard both and cover fire from the other. then focus all of your forces on one side so part of his army cant shoot.

STORMTROOPER : if you get 3 shots at 6 and he gets 0 shots because your not in LoS or range you will eventually win.

Thanks for the help guys.

I was toying with dropping a tiger and taking a Panzergren platoon and (ab)using the mounted assault rule.
I hadn't considered dropping the artillery, I may have a play with the army list tonight and see what else I can take...maybe a second PZGr platoon.

I forgot to use the disengage rule, doh.

Our table was pretty cool looking, realm of battle board (2 hills config) lots of wheat fields, trees, the kerr and king Les Vierries town set, walls with corners, Trees. We're lacking roads and rivers, but we had to leave some terrain out.

Again thanks for the help, I'll let you know what happens next time.

I hope you'll lose to my paras again mate

Bite me

Ah, well, here's another piece of advice:

Don't ask for advice in a place that your opponent is sure to look in.

I frequently feel it's some average luck that would help the most!

My list (roughly)if it helps you guys give Hangfire some advice
Para Hq + 2 Piat
2 Para Platoon
Mortar 2 sections
Assault platoon, 3 squads 1 flamethrower, PIAT
Recce platoon, 3 sections (one replaced by Piat)
17pdrs 2 sections
6 pdrs 2 sections
Air landing light battery 2 sections with medium support


Think that was it from memory

Dug in British Airborne with solid ATG support is very hard to deal with when you have a mostly armored force. Infantry is the best way to deal with 17pdrs. They have no HE so will have to fight as a really small rifle platoon when facing infantry.

Smoke is good for blocking the ability of 6pdr spam from lighting you up, especially in a mission like breakthrough where your deployment zone really does start out as a shooting gallery for your opponent. Mortars are best for this job since you effectively get 4 attempts to range in with your mortar smoke shots and saves your real guns to damage the opponent.

If your own guns are dug in the airborne pack howitzers will not be able to affect them as greatly with their 6+ firepower.

You really MUST assault those dug in FV infantry if you really want to remove them. When dug in and gone to ground you will start with a 6+ to hit them and cannot hit them at all from long range. If you do hit them they get their 3+ save, and even if they fail that you need to make FP. All those different rolls slowly weed out any impact your shooting attacks have. If you roll your tigers over their position you can more easily crush them. Of course you need to be mindful of PIATs and 6pdrs within 8" of your assaulting platoons, shooting into your side armor in defensive fire.

Armored cars like the Puma, and pretty much everything else are at a distinct disadvantage in Late War. In EW their armor actually puts them on par with many tanks, in MW their armor and weapons are still generally OK, but once you hit LW *any* weapon can penetrate the armor on most armored cars. They may as well be completely unarmored when dealing with the majority of ATGs available in LW. At least they are no longer hampered by the now removed "forced disengagement" rule.

Of course forgetting your stormtrooper move is on you, though it doesn't look to me like you lost because of failing a stormtrooper move.

Ultimately the breakthrough mission is a tough one when your opponent gets good fields of fire to cover the deployment zone and the location where your reserves come in. Add in the fact that the opponent is FV infantry which is dug in and it makes for a tough nut to crack and definitely not one you should place too much weight of evidence on as you being a good or bad player. Not many can crack that nut consistently well.

Skriker

@Reaver83 - How did your paras do last night?

With regards to assault, the last 2 games, my tigers have gone down to assaulting paras.
Did we get the rule right, that once all the tigers are bailed out, my opponent has won and the tanks are captured?

So...to sum up, if I could go back in time and replay that game with the force I have, it's a case of
Use smoke
Don't forget stormtrooper
Kill enemy guns
Charge for the objectives?

If I was to replay the game and have the opportunity to amend my list, take something that can assault the dug in paras.

Okay, theoretical question...you're in a delayed reserves scenario (there's way too many of them, IMHO), you have my force (or slight variation) and you're facing reaver's para list. What do you deploy and what do you keep in reserve and why?

Don't ask for advice in a place that your opponent is sure to look in.

I can't he's everywhere!

Hangfire wrote:@Reaver83 - How did your paras do last night?

With regards to assault, the last 2 games, my tigers have gone down to assaulting paras.
Did we get the rule right, that once all the tigers are bailed out, my opponent has won and the tanks are captured?

So...to sum up, if I could go back in time and replay that game with the force I have, it's a case of
Use smoke
Don't forget stormtrooper
Kill enemy guns
Charge for the objectives?

If I was to replay the game and have the opportunity to amend my list, take something that can assault the dug in paras.

Okay, theoretical question...you're in a delayed reserves scenario (there's way too many of them, IMHO), you have my force (or slight variation) and you're facing reaver's para list. What do you deploy and what do you keep in reserve and why?

Don't ask for advice in a place that your opponent is sure to look in.

I can't he's everywhere!

This applies only to breakthrough, but... you might want to try doing the complete opposite deployment, especially if you have an open shot to the objective. There's something pretty nice about having a ridiculously strong unit drop out right behind it on turn 3 .

The crux is GTG, having been in the same boat as you for a month. Get your PUMA's in position, use their "Reveal GTG" instead of shooting, instead of hitting 1/6 of the time it's now 5+ or 1/3 of the time (big difference) hit them with Rocket Arty with the double template special rule, use AAA as they have excellent ROF and a good firepower. Once you have reduced them a bit it will make it easier to take them in the Assault. SMG's teams really help in the assault, you need at least a 2:1 advantage to whoop them. e.g 1 enemy Platoon is assaulted simultaneously by two of your Platoons.

Also when shooting, concentrate all firepower on one platoon at a time, if you can break one, you can armoured assault through the gap in 251's, if he moves a platoon to cover the gap they lose Dug in (unless he is clever and moves vehicles into the gap).

Thanks mwnciboo, good to know someone else was suffering with similar issues.

Next time eh!

Well Dave as most of advice is in a simular vain to the advice I have given you (well I think it is!). I do think the best thing you could do is re read the Recon rules, make a few notes on rules and how you want/need to play and then before every turn have a quick look over it. Also I think from what Adam has said you are playing Eyes and Ears wrong, one team/tank un GTG's a whole platoon.

Also if you want to see something funny I'll play Adam with my Hungarian Assault gun list, wear I can sit 15" away and thansk to my breakthrough guns he gets no saves!

AnywayI hope this topic ends up helping you Ben

I don't think I'm the only one when I say that the first 2-3 games I played with V3 were very slow affairs.

Even now, I look up 3-4 rules per game as they crop up for the 1st time.

mwnciboo wrote:I don't think I'm the only one when I say that the first 2-3 games I played with V3 were very slow affairs.

Even now, I look up 3-4 rules per game as they crop up for the 1st time.

My first games with V3 have been like this too, it took me 2.5 hours for my first game of V3 at 2000pts.

This topic is interesting to me, as I have been on the side of the dug in infantry battalion (Italians) destroying the German tank company the last few games I have played against one opponent. He had been overly cautious the first game we had, but I had trouble giving him advice the second game, as it came down mainly to bad luck (I only had 2 artillery platoons and an infantry company spread across the board [one of the defensive scenarios, I didn't get reserves until turn 5], and I repulsed his tanks assaults against my infantry line with tank assault 3. He failed to kill a single team with his pinning MG fire, for 3 turns).

General Seric wrote:My first games with V3 have been like this too, it took me 2.5 hours for my first game of V3 at 2000pts.

This topic is interesting to me, as I have been on the side of the dug in infantry battalion (Italians) destroying the German tank company the last few games I have played against one opponent. He had been overly cautious the first game we had, but I had trouble giving him advice the second game, as it came down mainly to bad luck (I only had 2 artillery platoons and an infantry company spread across the board [one of the defensive scenarios, I didn't get reserves until turn 5], and I repulsed his tanks assaults against my infantry line with tank assault 3. He failed to kill a single team with his pinning MG fire, for 3 turns).

I have had the same experience with my Italian Bersaglieri; first game was slow in moving along, even at lower points depending on the opposition force compilation. Sometimes we'd have to look up some different rules for each opponent each battle. However, since my Italians are a pretty homogenized force in my MW games, I had them down pretty good for what i wanted to do, but really couldn't advise the opponent on what they could do since I only covered sections of the rules that pertain to my army.

It appears though, in V3, my AS42 infantry being dug-in (depending on skill of course) are just murder against assaulting forces and even tanks. I had an Eastern Front force of Fucilieri drive off repeated T-34 assaults in a Cauldron mission with passglia bombe. Needless to say my Russian opponent just proceeded to just bombard me to death lol! My Bersags are still outfighting the Germans in the desert but still have trouble against Matilda-II assaults, but I always have something for them anyway (Guastatori) lol!

So, after about 4-5 games, I think I have it down now