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I am new to warhammer (only started about 2 months ago) within this time i have had maybe 10-15 battles with my tyranids that range from 1000pt-2000pt and I get completely decimated on matches over 1000pts. I know I am new and I do make mistakes because I don't know the
capabilities of the opponents army (Granted). However I don't feel my mistakes should have lead to complete and total decimation on every single 2000pt game.

What exactly do the tyranids have that is even somewhat effective????

Genestealers (been told some of the best cc in game) have yet to ANYTHING. I get in range that is no problem, the problem is them getting their ass kicked in ASSAULT. Seriously if they cant assault with a broodlord to assist then what is their purpose.

The hive guard hits on 3's but with only 2 shots a good portion miss or don't even pen.

Zoanthrope have limited range

The tyrannofex is ungodly expensive

Tervi explodes killing gaunts

The doom is focus fire the instant he come into existence.

gaunts are pretty much road kill.
Most trooper (gaunts, gargoyles, etch) have low bs and ws

I love the look, feel, and story of the tyranids however it just seems like everything is setup against them. No power weapons (except rending on 6 with few units), Only Zoan have invul saves. Hard to get MC cover saves unless venom is near, no grenades

Most of the saves are high (5+-6+)

As a new player I knew the tyranids were hard to play I was warned, However I was unaware of how much of a disadvantage the entire codex was compared to the other armies. And I wouldn't mind losing every match if it wasn't just an absolutely one sided battle everytime. Am i missing something or just not seeing something obvious???

They can be difficult, my partner ran an army heavy with genestealers and a Tervi. Its certainly possible to win with the Tyranids despite the amount of people who say they dont work. The genestealers, 30-40 coming on from outflank would often shred alot before they get shot up, the tervi would hide and make it very hard for people to grab and hold objectives.

I think its all about finding the right combination of play style and list with these guys. They do lack some anti tank, but having seen csm and ba armies with rhinos etc being shredded by stealers I know they can do it.

Gaunts/gargoyles are cannon fodder, but thats the point, unless you are unlucky a continuos stream of them may not kill alot but ties up alot of fire power better used elsewere.

The zoanthrope is short range but very scary, the threat alone can distract the other player.

Genestealers (been told some of the best cc in game) have yet to ANYTHING. I get in range that is no problem, the problem is them getting their ass kicked in ASSAULT. Seriously if they cant assault with a broodlord to assist then what is their purpose.

That doesn't sound right at all. Genestealers are one of the most terrifying CC units the game has produced, if they're getting their butts handed to them in assault, either its user error or horrible luck.

gaunts are pretty much road kill.
Most trooper (gaunts, gargoyles, etch) have low bs and ws

That's pretty much thier purpose, screening units like Warriors or Zoanthropes. But gaunts are all about numbers. Thirty homragaunts with/without bio-morphs can be pretty intimidating, especially if they're in synapse when they assault.

As a new player I knew the tyranids were hard to play I was warned, However I was unaware of how much of a disadvantage the entire codex was compared to the other armies. And I wouldn't mind losing every match if it wasn't just an absolutely one sided battle everytime. Am i missing something or just not seeing something obvious???

You're new. It takes alot of practice to get a feel for the units in your Codex. We can give you some advice here or there, but the majority of your learning is going to be through personal experience, YMMV.

Yeah, the complete lack of grenade biomorphs except for the Carnifex seems to really just wreck the tyranid CC choices. In general I have more luck with my Tyranids since my two regular opponents are foot heavy eldar and CSM. In todays general market of every unit being in a transport of some kind, your options can get limited. The Mycetic spore is your friend for getting Zoanthropes into range, but that gives the enemy a couple turns while you wait for the dice gods to let them deepstrike. You could try experimenting with the fast attack options. I actually plan on converting a Tyranid Warrior into a Parasite of Mortex today and have him join a unit of Shrikes with boneswords.

I've played two games against 'Nids with my Tau. The first game (about 1000 pt) was a blowout; my opponent got wasted by my massive volume of fire while caught out in the open (a big no-no against Tau). He also DS his Trygon Prime in front of my command squad and other suits, and was mowed down in one turn.

The second game I played against him was a good one. It was about 2k pts annhilation, and he beat me by 2 KP. The Trygon Prime survived this time, but didn't do a lot of damage. The Hive Tyrant he ran was the other survivor. What won him that game, though, was the fact that he managed to outflank me and pick my units off bit by bit. We went six turns, and I just wasn't getting enough hits to wear down his hormagaunt and termigaunt squads. Additionally, his ripper swarm really kept me occupied.

Fact of the matter is, you have to play to the army's strength; hordes and hordes of cheap, annoying units. Just like IG infantry blobs, 'Nids will get you by sheer numbers in the end.

Even though my experience with genestealers has been bad, they are a personally favorite unit. I have been running 2 units 10+1 broodlord with toxin sacs. is that too few or should I not take any biomorphs?

Another personal favorite is doom (mainly because I know no matter what, as soon as he makes his appearance, everything fires at him, regardless what else is around). I don't know if it is bad thinking but if a unit makes the opponent stop everything to waste that one unit, it seems there is a reason for it.

I know everyone seems afraid of a swarmlord, would it be plausible to tie up foes with gaunts and genestealers while the swarmlord approaches?

I have tried a small spam list. 30 gargoyles + POM , 30 terma + Prime with lash whip, +tervi and 3 units of genestealers with various other units. The enemy used Melee necrons mainly 2 royal courts and My numbers meant nothing. His invul saves and rez kept him stronger then me the whole match.

I also wanted to thank everyone for their input, i greatly appreciate it.

I'm not sure why GW does this to such a cool army.
It seriously seems like GW deliberately gave them a grossly inferior codex to offset their coolness.
I feel like GW is very uncomfortable with the idea of Tyranids winning games, which in turn makes people want to punch Cruddace in the back of the head for writing such a blatantly inferior codex in the face of books like BA, GK and DE.
Poor Tyranids have been sabotaged.

Genestealers aren't that good if you have defensive nades and any kind of armor. Depending on rending is just a good way to die honestly.

Who are you playing against in your matches? (I bet grey knights, blood angels and space wolves. But I've been wrong before)

Riozaki wrote:
Genestealers (been told some of the best cc in game) have yet to ANYTHING. I get in range that is no problem, the problem is them getting their ass kicked in ASSAULT. Seriously if they cant assault with a broodlord to assist then what is their purpose.

They are. They have a high Initiative, so as long as you aren't assaulting into cover, you'll go first against most armies. Are you forgetting your rending rule? Ever 6 on the to-wound is a rending wound, meaning no armor saves. Your opponent will have to make his invulnerable saves. If he doesn't have any, then he just starts taking wounds. High init and 6's to wound are your bread and butter with Genestealers.

sfshilo,


I have been playing Blood Angels, Vanilla Space Marines, terminator army (not sure which, death company), and Necrons (it was a melee necon and they kicked my ass). I know about their rending however 6's dont appear as much as I would like :(

Riozaki wrote:I am new to warhammer (only started about 2 months ago) within this time i have had maybe 10-15 battles with my tyranids that range from 1000pt-2000pt and I get completely decimated on matches over 1000pts. I know I am new and I do make mistakes because I don't know the
capabilities of the opponents army (Granted). However I don't feel my mistakes should have lead to complete and total decimation on every single 2000pt game.

What exactly do the tyranids have that is even somewhat effective????

The list of "somewhat effective" is;
Hive Tyrant
Tervigon
Hive Guard
Zoanthropes
Ymgarl Stealers
Genestealers
Gaunts
Gargoyles
Trygons

Units outside of of this list are only taken for either flavor, or for very niche lists.

Genestealers (been told some of the best cc in game) have yet to ANYTHING. I get in range that is no problem, the problem is them getting their ass kicked in ASSAULT. Seriously if they cant assault with a broodlord to assist then what is their purpose.

Genestealers with toxin sacs should be able to hold their own in combat against anything short of terminators 1v1. That said, charging grey hunters/paladins/any semi-competent melee unit through cover is basically suicide. I had 1 disastrous example where 9 stealers charged 9 grey hunters and 1 stealer had to go through cover....I lost 8 stealers before I swung. Cover will rape you, period. Try to tag the stealers with catalyst from a Tervigon to boost their survivability. I know it's expensive, and difficult to get to work since stealers will be outflanking or infiltrating, but it helps them out a ton.

The hive guard hits on 3's but with only 2 shots a good portion miss or don't even pen.

Hive Guard are our ranged anti-tank. Period. You should be running ~2 per 500 points, so in 2000 you should have 6 or 9.

Zoanthrope have limited range

That's half their problem. The other half is that psy defense neuters them. If they didn't have to pass the psy-test and deal with psy defense they would be amungst the best anti-tank in the game. Sadly they aren't though. Still, 3 in a pod can often nuke a tank early in the game, but realize you are condemning them to death.

The tyrannofex is ungodly expensive

Agreed. I don't see any possible way to make these usable at 265 points. They aren't awful in 2000 point games to supplement ranged anti-tank, but dont expect much from them. IMO they are about 65-90 points over priced.

Tervi explodes killing gaunts

Annoying, I know, but the idea is NOT to be losing the tervigons in the first place.

The doom is focus fire the instant he come into existence.

It's a suicide unit, don't know what to tell you. Throw him in a pod and pray he kills a lot when he lands.

gaunts are pretty much road kill.

Pretty much. With toxin-sacs and AG from a tervigon, they aren't terrible on the charge, but they fold like a house of cards against return attacks so charging through cover is a death sentence.

Most trooper (gaunts, gargoyles, etch) have low bs and ws

They always have, and always will. It's just the way they are. Not everyone is a space marine.

I love the look, feel, and story of the tyranids however it just seems like everything is setup against them. No power weapons (except rending on 6 with few units), Only Zoan have invul saves. Hard to get MC cover saves unless venom is near, no grenades

Most of the saves are high (5+-6+)

As a new player I knew the tyranids were hard to play I was warned, However I was unaware of how much of a disadvantage the entire codex was compared to the other armies. And I wouldn't mind losing every match if it wasn't just an absolutely one sided battle everytime. Am i missing something or just not seeing something obvious???

You have a pretty good idea where the problems for nids are although you forgot to mention multi-combat resolution issues which i think is crap. Not much to do but hang in there until 6th edition in June or July and pray the MC, vehicle, cover and combat resolution rules are changed in our favor, other wise you will be waiting 2-3 years for a new codex.

they were my first army as well, and it took me a while to get the hang of it too

i know when i first started playing i didnt read the part where hormagaunts run 3D6 pick the highest

also, hive guard are amazing, i promise you, just make sure youre running at least 2 in a brood, and their gun is 24" takes cover saves away and doesnt need line of sight

i usually run ymgarl genies over regular genies, but regular are pretty good too, make sure youre doing combat correctly, and i dont give them a broodlord unless its a squad of 15+, also rending claws are cheaper and better than scything talons (in my personal opinion)

Naste things to do with nids:

1.) 2x 20 flanking Stealers with toxin and adrenaline. (Higher S through adrenaline leads to re-rolling with toxin, read poison rule). Use Hivetyrants tactical instinct.

2.) Double or triple Tervigon. My favorite move! Best combined with 90+ Hormagaunts with katalyst Feel No Pain.

3.) Nemesis in droppod. Instant fun.

4.) Winged Hivetyrant with 30 Gargoyles. Tyrant cracks Landraider, Gargoyles block exits -> All passengers destroyed.


These are just a few moves. With nids you get few deathstar units but you need to rely on synergies. At least this is the experience I made in the past. If you want to have kick-ass soloing units try marines, they forgive mistakes much easier.

foreplay241 wrote:they were my first army as well, and it took me a while to get the hang of it too

i know when i first started playing i didnt read the part where hormagaunts run 3D6 pick the highest

also, hive guard are amazing, i promise you, just make sure youre running at least 2 in a brood, and their gun is 24" takes cover saves away and doesnt need line of sight

i usually run ymgarl genies over regular genies, but regular are pretty good too, make sure youre doing combat correctly, and i dont give them a broodlord unless its a squad of 15+, also rending claws are cheaper and better than scything talons (in my personal opinion)

Hive guard ARE amazing. I use 4 in my 1500 point lists, minimum.

Ymgarls are....in a bad FOC slot. If they were fast attack they'd see the board a lot more often. As is, they compete with Hive Guard, which are basically a staple unit for making the army work. If you are only running 6 HG and can spare the elite slot, then 6-8 ymgarls make a solid back field disruption unit. They are also a solid choice in null deployment lists, as you won't be taking Hive Guard then anyways.

Carnage43 wrote:You have a pretty good idea where the problems for nids are although you forgot to mention multi-combat resolution issues which i think is crap. Not much to do but hang in there until 6th edition in June or July and pray the MC, vehicle, cover and combat resolution rules are changed in our favor, other wise you will be waiting 2-3 years for a new codex.

The thing that reall gets me is how badly Cruddace screwed up Lictors. I LOVED Lictors, but then they recieved the god awful ruled they have in the current codex and, literally, it has me scratching my head in wonder how someone could call Pheremone Trail worth anything after reading it.

Riozaki wrote:I am new to warhammer (only started about 2 months ago) within this time i have had maybe 10-15 battles with my tyranids that range from 1000pt-2000pt and I get completely decimated on matches over 1000pts. I know I am new and I do make mistakes because I don't know the
capabilities of the opponents army (Granted). However I don't feel my mistakes should have lead to complete and total decimation on every single 2000pt game.

snip

As a new player I knew the tyranids were hard to play I was warned, However I was unaware of how much of a disadvantage the entire codex was compared to the other armies. And I wouldn't mind losing every match if it wasn't just an absolutely one sided battle everytime. Am i missing something or just not seeing something obvious???

I think folks are focusing on the wrong things here. Yeah, Tyranids may not be the most OP codex, but you are brand new. I played for a LONG time and got my faced kicked in by a lot of players before I started winning even a single game.

It takes time to learn how to play 40k well. I would recommend spending some time posting your lists and battle reports in the BR forum and getting feedback on your play.

I have the same experience with stealers. I know that on paper and stat wise they should kick butt, but every time I use them they either get minced by fire (rubbish 5+ save means anything can insta-kill them) or get totalled in cc by a unit they should trounce. Only today my 14 stealers plus b/lord got something like 25 to wound rolls on a unit of SCM and did not one rending hit. What are the chances of that, so of course they lost as CSM can save at 3+ and stealers only do so at 5+ and then the powerfist got amongst them. A lot of points for troops that are pretty easy to kill.

Say you have 10 stealers against a unit of 10 standard GK with stormbolters. By the law of averages they would achieve 10 hits and 5 kills every round of firing, that is some pretty poor odds unless the stealers get close very fast.

KplKeegan wrote:it has me scratching my head in wonder how someone could call Pheremone Trail worth anything after reading it.

It stinks.

Portugal Jones wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:it has me scratching my head in wonder how someone could call Pheremone Trail worth anything after reading it.

It stinks.

Agggh. Very punny.

On a serious note, I gave the OP some advice over PM:

Yeah, but if they're (the guys he is playing against) really good they will help you learn. Ask them for tips and advice after and during each game. Ask them for help with your lists; ask them how to beat their list. Good tourney players and good sportsmen have no problem helping new players because it isn't a big deal.

Here's a site that does really well with nids that you can take a look at:
http://synaps3.blogspot.com

http://synaps3.blogspot.com/2012/04/batrep-2000pts-tyranids-vs-necrons.html
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/p/competitive-execution-of-tyranids.html
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/.../batrep-1850-tyranids-vs-space-marines.html
http://synaps3.blogspot.com/2011/04/tyranids-take-4th-at-adepticon.html

Basically, just go to his site and search tyranids.

Genestealers (been told some of the best cc in game) have yet to ANYTHING. I get in range that is no problem, the problem is them getting their ass kicked in ASSAULT. Seriously if they cant assault with a broodlord to assist then what is their purpose.

Howmany do you normally run per brood? 5 won't cut it as a CC decimator, just a late objective grabber, outflanker or skirmisher. If you take a broodlord at low numbers, I would advise against it as you can get 4 more Stealers for the same.

gaunts are pretty much road kill.
Most trooper (gaunts, gargoyles, etch) have low bs and ws

Spam them. Lots and lots of gaunts. Remember, everything should be assaulting when possible, unless you are being stupid by sending 5 Gaunts in a 10 man Purifier squad. if the ods seem in your favour to win a combat, do it.

As a new player I knew the tyranids were hard to play I was warned, However I was unaware of how much of a disadvantage the entire codex was compared to the other armies. And I wouldn't mind losing every match if it wasn't just an absolutely one sided battle everytime. Am i missing something or just not seeing something obvious???

I find the best way to win with Nids, or anything, is to put yourself in the mind of their leader, in this case, the Hive Mind. When conduct a moe, think to yourself "Would the Hive Mind do this?"

Unless I've missed something the OP hasn't actually told us who he's playing against. Tyranids do fine against all army types but with wildly different units.
Hive Guard will destroy mech marines' transports and Hive Guard can rip up what's inside.
But if you're charging SS/TH termies with genestealers then yeah, problem.

I have played everything from horde imperial guard, mech blood angels, cc necrons, terminators (death watch or company, cant remember which). I learned quickly on the termies was have been more cautious even though I completely underestimated the cc necrons.

Out of everything I am most afraid of necrons now. They have better firepower, the royal court with scarabs own me in cc, and their 4+ res is a pain in the ass. Not to mention the royal court was teleporting around the damn map.

Necrons shouldn't present a problem. IIRC mindshackle Scarabs causes either a Leadership or Int test and if failed you must attck your own squad?

Genestealers. Lots of 'em. High Ld and Int soeither way you barely fail. Plus 3 Str 4 rending attacks on the charge per model will put a damper on anyone's day. After all enemies are dead simply consolidate over their markers so they can't get back up over their turn.

Scarabs are a LD check on 3d6, not to hard to fail.

The amount of Hive Guard you should run depends entirely on your local meta. While Carnage said 6-9 in a 2000pt game, that's mostly necessary to combat mechanised lists. If you don't encounter mechanised lists (ie lists where just about everything is in a transport of some kind or is otherwise a vehicle) then Hive Guard quickly become a point sink. In a tournament it's adviseable to take at leaqst two pairs, since you're basically trying to make a take-all-comers list and need to accomodate mech lists.

Personally, I get away with one unit of Hive Guard. My opponents don't run mechanised lists, the closest is my friends Dark Eldar Wych army, which sits at 3 Raiders at 1500pts. I get away with only one unit of Hive Guard by having a unit of Zoanthropes (their range becomes a non-issue against an army who wants to get close to you ASAP). His other army is Black Templars, heavy on the Land Raiders, which again, Zoanthropes are going to be better against. My brother plays DOA Blood Angels aside from the odd blenderdread, so not many vehicles, and my other friends run semi mechanised Space Marines and Eldar.

So, Hive Guard really are worth taking for their anti tank (make sure you at pleast take a pair - 4 shots is better than 2). But learn to recognise how many you need. If you're fighting against a footslogging army, multiple squads of hive Guard aren't going to accomplish as much and the points can be better spent on anti infantry. If you're playing against people running many AV14 vehicles, Hive Guard can only glance them and won't be killing them, in which case you need to decide between Zoanthropes or melee monstrous creatures.

While I love the advice from people good at Tyranids, I feel the advice of 'take as many Hive Guard as you can' stems from very particular circumstances. Their local meta is very, very mech heavy (which is common, but not absolute), or they're tournament players giving advice on a list to perform on the tournament scene (which isn't always going to be what your localopponents play).

If you're not winning games, play smaller games and learn more about how your units work.
I had the same problem with Eldar, and my club plays a lot of 400 or 600 points games. It taught me how to use cover, when to attack or hold back, and how to prioritise targets. Also, you'll work out what upgrades you can choose can do.
It did make me think that Striking Scorpions were great, until I used them in 1000 point games, and they got wiped out in a couple of turns. Units good in small games may not be as good when scaling up. But, the lessons learnt worked anyway.