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Librarian 100
blood lance
might of heroes

Assault squad 5 man 125
Melta gun
power weapon

Razorback
Las/plas 55

Total ------------------------------------ 280

2x
Assault squad 10 man 225
2 Melta gun
power weapon

storm raven 200
twin multi melta
twin lascannon

death dread 140
Talons magna grapple

Total ------------------------------------ 1130
--------------------------------------------------------------
Death company 10 man 230
2 power weapons

chaplain 100

storm raven 200
twin multi melta
twin lascannon

furioso dread 125
Talons

Total ------------------------------------ 655
----------------------------------------------------------------
3 baal predators
Heavy bolters 435
----------------------------------------------------------------

I had to run a list of 3 storm ravens... as they are just too cool.
yes yes av12 I know not the highest it could be but....
fast vehicle with assault and machine spirit... really? for only 200? loaded to the teeth with anti vehicle guns? really?
can transport 12 troops and a dread? awesome as my list also has 3 of those dreads as well.

only one razorback... literally... a points filler with a nice weapon on it thats all it really is.

Why a death company? because people who say death company is a waste in this codex, just doesnt know how to use their biggest weakness... as one of their best strengths.
rage is a setback, but 3 units with it splotched all around the board makes it hard to kite them all in a manner thats easy to handle, no to mention whilst dodging all my anti vehicle and other troops...
makes it chaotic to dodge it all, either fight it head on or run and have to have 3 different things kite 3 of my rage inflicted troops all game while be attacked from other troops in other areas.

FAST vehicles, 3 baal preds and 3 storm ravens... mean even moving 6 inches im firing full blown , with my storm ravens thats a maximum of 6 shots per turn (knowing full well their missiles are one shot) and machine spirit enables me to fire at a dif target with one shot so i have potential to drop 2 armored targets a turn if need be.

I have PLENTY of anti vehicle

my weakness... not a lot of capping troops, not a lot of troops in general as only 25 of them are scoring units in 3 squads

not a lot of swarm control, i have a little bit, bolters and baal predators and a lot of insta kill weps vs normal troops and good melee but... all in all not a swarm killer

my strategy is come in on the sides with the death dreads and 2 ravens carrying them while my furioso dread and the death company in the middle get dropped off dead in the fray of business. that way stuff is pretty well spread out, my fast baal predators with scout, if turn on is mine im fairly certain of gaining such a first turn lead that the game is mine, but if the first turn isnt mine i will have to play a bit more defensive and keep my baal preds near my ravens for some added support

12 blood strike misiles 1 shot
1 blood lance
3 twin linked lascannons
1 lascannon
1 twin linked plasma gun
8 meltas
3 twin linked multi meltas
3 twin linked assault cannons

I don't think Assault Marines are very good Stormraven cargo. They can get there on their own, and you either have to lower their mobility after they get out, or take a half-sized squad, and neither option gets you a benefit. If you got a 35 point discount on the SR, I'd like the idea more.

In addition, I'm of the opinion that you want each Stormraven to be as close to equally threatening as possible. That isn't the case here, and the DC's ride will obviously be the first to die. I get your point on Rage, but the DC will be walking more than you'd like.

Since you have spare Elites slots, I'd suggest cutting the one Assault Squad that has a Razorback, as well as the Chaplain. He's a nice addition, but 10 DC models will hit plenty hard without him, and you diminish your current "eggs in one basket" problem. The HB sponsons can also go, which brings us to 370 saved.

Use the points to trade the Libby for Mephiston and some Assault Terminators. You can stick Mephy in one SR, and the Assault Terminators in another. Now your Stormravens are truely loaded, and even one hitting the enemy line will cause some carnage.

The formatting made this a bit hard to understand, but I think I got it.

Ok, point by point.

Rule of thumb with Librarians: Take Shield of Sanguinius, and any one other power. If you're not running chaplains, use Unleash Rage, and if you're running chaplains use Might of Heroes. So in this case, Unleash Rage and Shield of Sanguinius.

Razorbacks aren't assault vehicles, so strip the razorback squad naked and use those points for other things - keep them embarked for the entire game, or deploy them separate to babysit your home field objective(s). Otherwise, your 5 assault marines with bolt pistols will be shot full of holes the turn it disembarks and won't get to do much of anything at all other than give your opponent a target of opportunity.

Take power fists in your assault squads - sergeants are awesome like that. They can't be singled out in CC, so they're the only things in the entire codex that can safely use an initiative 1 weapon. Otherwise, if you insist on power weapons instead, take lightning claws. Two of them, preferably, but even one of them is a slight upgrade over the PW, for the same exact price.

I would also take 2 flamers and dual lightning claws on each of your RAS instead of 2 meltaguns and a PW. Not only does it specialize the unit (which is the best way to make it effective - jack of all trades units generally underperform in each of the roles you've equipped them for), but it adds some much needed horde control.

For the Stormravens, keep the twin-linked assault cannons. They're great anti-troop weapons, and statistically they're better at popping armor than lascannons. Basically, 4 twin-linked S6 rending shots beats a single S9 twin-linked non-rending shot. The mathhammer has already been posted here (I was about to run it myself when I decided to search):

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/274015.page

You did good with your DC Dreadnoughts, although I completely, 100% disagree with you on the DC Marines. Rage on the marines makes them useless, but rage on the dreads is manageable as long as you take magna-grapples.

The Furioso Dreadnought definitely needs extra armor.

I'm of two minds as far as heavy bolter sponsons on the Baal predators are concerned. If you can afford them, then they're generally worth taking, but those are always the first things to go when I'm looking for points. Heavy bolters are very unimpressive weapons.

Here's a list with my suggested tweaks in it:

HQ:
Librarian (Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage)
(100 points)

Librarian (Shield of Sanguinius, Unleash Rage)
(100 points)

Elites:
2x Sanguinary Priest
(100 points)

Chaplain
(100 points)

Furioso Dreadnought (Talons, Magna-grapple, Extra Armor)
(155 points)

Fast Attack:
Baal Predator (TL Assault Cannon, no sponsons)
(115 points)

Baal Predator (TL Assault Cannon, no sponsons)
(115 points)

Baal Predator (TL Assault Cannon, no sponsons)
(115 points)

Troops:
9x Assault Marines (2x Flamer)
- Assault Sergeant (2x Lightning Claws)
(230 points)

9x Assault Marines (2x Flamer)
- Assault Sergeant (2x Lightning Claws)
(230 points)

10x Death Company (2x PWeapon, 1x THammer)
(260 points)

Death Company Dreadnought (Talons, Magna-grapple)
(140 points)

Death Company Dreadnought (Talons, Magna-grapple)
(140 points)

Heavy Support:
Stormraven Gunship (TL Assault Cannon, TL Multimelta)
(200 points)

Stormraven Gunship (TL Assault Cannon, TL Multimelta)
(200 points)

Stormraven Gunship (TL Assault Cannon, TL Multimelta)
(200 points)

Totals: 2500/2500 points, 8% HQ, 14.2% Elites, 13.8% Fast Attack, 40% Troops, 24% Heavy Support, 44 Models, 17 Kill Points

Run the DC marines + chaplain in one 'raven with the furioso, and each of the other 'ravens gets an assault squad, librarian, and priest along with a DC dreadnought.

Outflank the Baals and try to use them to pop vehicles from behind.

Basically, by adding a librarian with unleash rage and a priest to each assault squad, you turn them into a mini-death star (especially with the flamers and dual LCs for anti-horde). Shield of Sanguinius will cover the DC stormraven, in the turn that you want them to finally disembark. Otherwise, abuse the 4++ cover save for flat-out movement while you position them.

That, IMO, is a moderate improvement over your original list, while still keeping the "feel" of it intact. You've got a highly mobile force capable of popping a lot of armor and I've added quite a bit of horde-killing to boot. Mephiston would be nice, I agree, but in this case I think taking 2 librarians instead would be the better choice.

Consider each assault squad with a libby and priest attached:

37 attacks on the charge, rerolling misses, 4 of which are force weapon attacks and 4 of which are power weapons that reroll failed wounds, all at S5 I5, plus 2 flamer templates landing right before the charge.

I'd say that tops the assault terminators (standard setup is 3x TH/SS and 2x dual LCs), which get 17 attacks on the charge, no rerolls, only 8 at initiative (rerolling wounds) and 9 at I1. They also only have a 17% chance of being FC (so S5 and S9 respectively), and don't have FNP. It also tops Mephiston.

This is a sneaky list, too - your DC stormraven (make sure to paint it in the DC color to make it stick out more) will be absorbing all of the fire when the true threats are the other two that are loaded with "Just Some Regular Assault Marines".

Not a bad idea about the assault cannon over lascannon, just to double check I did do the math myself, its adds up, not by much and not on lower AV values mathematically.... So that shall be changed the only thing is range is much lower.... which is why i had it as a lascannon,

im not a big fan of dropping my heavy bolters on predators... That was like my main part of anti horde were the 6 extra guns on my fast vehicles. HOWEVER with gaining the assault cannons on my ravens.... adds some of that fire (and better fire over all) so I think thats a hands down trade but what is it im taking those points off for? for the claws and the priests? also Im losing blood lance.... for a 5+ invul which.. i assume can be nice and all but that means im losing some anti armor and not really getting a trade up for it....? do you think i have enough anti armor? since everyone on here seems to run lasplas razorback spam spam and more spam.... and more spam.... oh wait? theres more.... its kind of defeating to have only 9 anti armor vehicles or popping units...

So maybe if i can configure some sort of balance... AT LEAST one melta in each squad will be needed.... at least one. a flamer isnt a bad idea but GENERALY ive played against people who have them and never gotten to use them... i think out of all the games ive played ive been hit with ONE flamer.... (normally i play nids) I just counter it too often by being just out of range or closing that distance far too soon... but if i can trade one out for a melta and have a semi usable unit... with the offchance of using a flamer... good idea... sang priests are nice... i suppose red thirst doesnt happen often and they FORCE it to happen pretty much... so .... good choice... ill factor that all in and see what i can come up with thanks for the help

ALSO for whoever offered up mephiston, I dont run heroes. I just dont. and when I do it would be him, I dont run heroes because if i build a set list around him, or with him in it rather... and my opponent says no heroes, which has happened BAM LIST RUINED. So..... untill i hit my 3k cap, no mehpiston. :( or heroes of any kind. I have a nice death star for mephiston built for a 3k game but not without it.

Don't mix Flamers and Meltas in a single unit. If you want a few, take a unit with two. You don't want shots wasted against the wrong target.

By the way, in the current rules you do not need your opponent's consent to take unique characters. If giving people a veto over them is a local house rule, fine, but by RAW it isn't up to them.

One of the key factors in listhammering is unit specialization. If you want your unit to be good against vehicles, take 2 meltas and a fist/hammer (and meltabombs - they're cheap). If you want it to be good against infantry, take 2 flamers and a pair of lightning claws.

Mixing melta and flamer is always a pretty horrible idea. Two melta shots is better than one against a vehicle, and two flamers is better than one against a horde. The idea with any CC army is to make absolutely sure YOU get the charge, and not the other way around.

Unless it's a house rule, you can always take special characters. But in the case that it is a house rule and you can get veto'd have a backup unit or two that's the same point value so you can drop it into your list without making changes. Here's mine for Mephiston:

Mephiston
(250 points)

-or-

Librarian (Jump Pack, Unleash Rage, Shield of Sanguinius)
(125 points)
-and-
Librarian (Jump Pack, Unleash Rage, Shield of Sanguinius)
(125 points)

If I'm not running a jumper list, then I upgrade one of them to an epistolary and take Sanguine Sword and Might of Heroes.

I dont want a hero in my 2500 list regardless, even in my 2.5k nids i dont run heroes (minus the occasional doom) which i assume EVERY now and then id run a hero with my blood angels, but id prefer a no hero list.

as ive learned to hammer out a good list.... hammer out what you know is good against them and put it in... maybe im baised because i play nids mainly as my army... thats a good choice to put up against a list im trying to build.... a flamer doesnt miss unless the range is too short, also whats the benifit of TWO lightening claws? just the extra attack? I don't see a bonus for having 2. because if he can have a pistol weapon and a claw... same bonus less points. unless theres something about dual claws

so perhaps ditch the flamers in general im not a huge fan of them, and take only meltas.... monstrous creature killers... tank poppers..... unit insta killers like say.. terminators (minus invul saves)
they still have bolt pistols and with the priests furious charge making them formidable if not better than most troops.

I am worried about having only 6 vehicles.... well i mean 9 with dreads... i assume if i get first turn damage will be brutal.... and ill be fine... but against a huge anti tank list... i might be toast.

Shadowmyth515 wrote:also whats the benifit of TWO lightening claws? just the extra attack? I don't see a bonus for having 2. because if he can have a pistol weapon and a claw... same bonus less points. unless theres something about dual claws

Lightning claws only give the +1A if they're paired. Same with power fists. The only power weapons that give an extra attack when paired with a pistol are actual "power weapons" (swords, axes, etc).

Edit to add: Oh yeah, force weapons also ignore armor saves and give the +1A when paired with a pistol. Forgot about those for some reason.

so point wise best advice would still be 2 lightening claws? even though they are 2x the cost of a regular power sword only bonus is reroll to wound ? is 15 points on one model worth that? If so i think it would look bad ass but not sure if its really worth it... i mean 1 gun shot and still 3 attacks even without reroll to wound.... i dunno... ill math it out. giving 30 points to a Sargent for roughly the same effect as 15 seems.... kind of a bad choice i dunno re roll to wound... on a power weapon... might be good hm.....maybe a small change would be power fist 10 points more.... with anti vehicle power.....still no bonus attack confered but if my librarian with might of heroes is still aliv.e. thats a bonus d3 to the power fist if against a vehicle or to the librarian if against regular models....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No im thinking 2 meltas in my squad and a sergeant with a pistol and a power weapon like a sword vs 2 claws.... AS awesome as I like the claw.... just doesn't add up statistically

2 meltas can pop a vehicle ..... or some insta kill troops still allowing a charge... and i can save some points.

Statistically speaking, LCs are simply just better than power weapons.

Also, don't mix weapons in squads. If you want to have a squad get into CC with infantry models, give it 2x flamers and dual LCs - they're well worth the points.

If you want a squad to pop tanks or monstrous kittens, give it 2x meltaguns and a thunder hammer.

You're not spending 30 points on dual LCs for "roughly the same effect as 15" - you're getting +1A with one of the best anti-infantry upgrades you can take. Especially if you've got a chaplain or librarian with unleash rage to attach to the squad, then you're rerolling misses and failed wounds.

Even if you consider taking a power fist in a squad that'll be going into CC with infantry, the dual LCs are only 5 points more (and WELL worth the price of admission). Consider the following:

Librarian (shield + rage)
Priest
9x Assault Marines (2x Flamers)
Assault Sergeant (dual LCs)

Charging an infantry unit gets you:
2 flamer templates at S4
4 force weapon attacks at S5 I5 WS5 (rerolling misses)
4 CCW attacks at S5 I5 WS5 (rerolling misses)
25 CCW attacks at S5 I5 WS4 (rerolling misses)
4 LC attacks at S5 I5 WS4 (rerolling wounds + misses)

That's a total of 2 flamer templates and 37 attacks (rerolling misses, 4 of which reroll wounds and still disallow armor saves). That's an excellent unit - figure if you pop off both of the flamer templates, you get roughly 2-3 hits with each of those as well.

Either way, one of the most basic tenets of listhammering is to specialize each of your units to perform a specific role. The dual lightning claws + 2 flamer loadout is the absolute best loadout you'll get when kitting a squad out for troop killing.

Figure it this way - if you mix weapons, then at least one of those weapons isn't going to perform up to its capability. Can a meltagun instasplortch most infantry models? Yup. Is it better than 5-6 flamer template hits? Nope. Shooting meltaguns at 2 models gets you less benefit than shooting 2 flamer templates at 5-6 models.

Either way, I just offered my suggestions, you can take 'em or leave 'em. It's your army after all!

I dunno man... 2 meltas can open a vehicle and kill troops can a flamer open a vehicle? no..... I understand specializing a squad ... but uh... what happens on the off chance squad 1 needs to go against enemy squad 1... and a giant effing trygon kicks your plan in the face? how good is a flamer vs that or... a vehicle that just ruined your plan... by dual fitting my troops for 80% combat and 80% shooty... VS 160% combat..... i just gave them a better chance if a wildcard was thrown in my way.... like a trygon... or a teleported in GK dread knight ... or a trygon or some stupid fast vehicle that just got in my way....

HOWEVER without my 2 meltas in the squad... do you think i have the anti vehicle needed? if so, forget the meltas, and I will take flamers.

One draw back to this list.... my 2 controllable scoring units... with ONLY 2..... the need for them to be more efficient in BOTH roles might be better... then again... if i dont need one roll of them to fill like say anti armor..... because my 9 vehicles have that covered..... then your 10k percent right. dual flamers and dual claws.

If you can say that with my vehicles you genuinely believe i have enough anti armor.... then ill take your advice.

What your list is sorely lacking in is anti-infantry, I'd say you've got anti-vehicle pretty well covered.

Talons also have a pretty good shot at popping armor, too. S7 isn't too shabby against most rear armor values (I believe there's only 2 vehicles in the game with rear armor values over 12 - Land Raiders and Monoliths?), or you can take the fists on one of your dreads instead.

In the list I posted, you'd have:

1x S9 Thunder Hammer
3x S8 TL Multimeltas
3x S8 Magna-grapples,
3x S7 Blood Talons (priest bubble gives the furioso FC too, and the DC dreads have it inherent)
6x S6 (rending) TL Assault Cannons

That's a pretty decent amount of anti-vehicle firepower (especially since you can outflank 3 of your TL Assault Cannons and get rear armor shots fairly reliably). Granted, if you were stacking AT, then you could fit in more, but that's not what you're going for with this list.

Shadowmyth515 wrote:giving 30 points to a Sargent for roughly the same effect as 15 seems.... kind of a bad choice i dunno re roll to wound...

I agree with this. 30 pts on a Sgt model is too rich for my blood. But YMMV.

Eh, in this case it's warranted. I generally don't stick dual LCs on regular assault squads, but when you've only got two reliable units to deal with all of your anti-infantry needs, it's cheap at twice the price.

Chesh wrote:Eh, in this case it's warranted. I generally don't stick dual LCs on regular assault squads, but when you've only got two reliable units to deal with all of your anti-infantry needs, it's cheap at twice the price.

+2 attacks overall won't make or break your anti-infantry.

reps0l wrote:

Chesh wrote:Eh, in this case it's warranted. I generally don't stick dual LCs on regular assault squads, but when you've only got two reliable units to deal with all of your anti-infantry needs, it's cheap at twice the price.

+2 attacks overall won't make or break your anti-infantry.

You never know. Consider:

29 attacks on the charge from CCW, 4 force weapon, 3 LC (36 total) at S5 I5 vs MEQ (4+ to hit 3+ to wound):
14.5 CCW hits + 7.25 (from rerolls) = 21.75
2 FW hits + 1 from rerolls = 3
1.5 LC + .75 from rerolls = 2.25

21.75 CCW hits wounding on 3+ = 14.5725 wounds = 4.8 dead marines
3 FW hits wounding on 3+ = 2 wounds = 2 dead marines (6.8 total)
2.25 LC hits wounding on 3+ = 1.5 wounds + .5 wounds from rerolls = 2 dead marines (8.8 total)

Now let's change that to 2x LC
4 LC attacks, 2 hit, 1 reroll = 3 hits
3 hits wounding on 3+ = 2 wounds + .67 from rerolls = 2.67 dead marines

4.8 dead marines from CCW +
2 dead marines from FW +
2.67 dead marines from LC =
9.47 dead marines vs 8.8 dead marines.

Statistically, you're killing 1 more marine with that extra +1 attack - I generally ignore decimal places when mathhammering, because it could go either way. By erring on the low side my surprises are generally pleasant ones. So that means you're only getting 2-3 attacks back, rather than 4-6. I'd say that's worth the 15 points.

It's easier to just compare the mathhammer of the Sgt with BP/LC and one with LC/LC...to include his BP shot before the charge.

I get crunching the numbers of the entire unit but it starts to get overly situational IMO. If you like kitting out a Sgt with 30 pts of LCs then more power to you. I like running more streamline configurations.

Yeah, to each their own.

I rarely shoot my bolt pistols before assaulting, unless I'm positive that the resulting wounds won't take my unit out of charge range. I'm pretty good at eyeballing it, but I aim for getting within around 4" of the target unit before I feel safe popping off pistols and especially flamers.

I learned that lesson real quick.