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hello guys quick quiz, can a dread spin 360* like a turret?

Weapons on any walker (including dreadnoughts) are assumed to be able to swivel 45°, but are like infantry in that they can turn during the Shooting phase to aim at their chosen target, unlike other vehicles (Rulebook p72, "Walkers Shooting"). Even though dreadnoughts (and defilers, for that matter) look like they should be able to pivot at the waist and thus have a larger fire arc, they are still bound by this rule.

The 45° thing is only really important if the walker is immobilised, and for working out the direction it is facing when your opponent's turn comes around.

the reason i ask i due to the BRB saying

"on some models it may be impossible to move the gun" etc.

and as the torso on a dread can turn 360*, see what i mean?

Dreadnoughts have a fixed 45 degree arc to the front for shooting. You can pivot on the spot during the shooting phase to face your target (but you can't pivot again after shooting). Most times you'll remain facing that way, so be warned for enemies trying to get a shot at your rear/sides.

Formosa wrote:the reason i ask i due to the BRB saying

"on some models it may be impossible to move the gun" etc.

and as the torso on a dread can turn 360*, see what i mean?

See the page I quoted; it specifies that all walkers are assumed to have a 45° fire arc.

Imagine that when the Dreadnought pivots its torso around, it exposes its weaker rear armour. So when the model turns in the shooting phase, just think of it as pivoting at the waist.

ah thats exactly what i mean, it pivots at the waist, so the top half is like a turret

No, the top half is fixed in place, it can't actually pivot. It does not behave like a turret.

The entire vehicle needs to rotate if you want to aim at something.

Formosa wrote:ah thats exactly what i mean, it pivots at the waist, so the top half is like a turret

No, it is a hull mounted weapon, as the rulebook tells you.

Formosa wrote:ah thats exactly what i mean, it pivots at the waist, so the top half is like a turret

And what I'm saying is that you can imagine that that's what is happening, but in game terms it's the same as turning the model around. After all, if a Dreadnought swivels at the waist but then gets shot from someone formerly in front of it, surely those shots would hit its vulnerable rear armour?

Think about it like this: turning a tank's turret would not expose weaker armour, so they are given a 360° arc of fire (or whatever the actual model can/should be able to do). A Dreadnought can be imagined to pivot at the waist, but doing so would expose their rear armour; this is represented in the game by having a 45° arc of fire, but being able to pivot the whole model in the Shooting phase.

Either way, the rules are perfectly clear. I'm just trying to provide an explanation to counter the fluff argument that Dreadnoughts look like they could swivel at the waist.

@Formosa, think of it how ever you want, but when you shot, the Dread turns to face its target and has to expose its rear armor to someone in the opposite direction as the target.

If in your head its pivoting like a turret, sure... but if I'm shooting at a target due north of my dread, side armor is to the east and west and back armor is to the south. RAW/RAI.

Degrees and fire arcs only matter to immobilized dreads

Lobukia wrote:@Formosa, think of it how ever you want, but when you shot, the Dread turns to face its target and has to expose its rear armor to someone in the opposite direction as the target.

If in your head its pivoting like a turret, sure... but if I'm shooting at a target due north of my dread, side armor is to the east and west and back armor is to the south. RAW/RAI.

Degrees and fire arcs only matter to immobilized dreads

This is not entirely true, although it's how a lot of players interpreted the rules prior to the current chaos faq.

Walkers do not get a free 360 degree pivot in the shooting phase. You choose a target from within the fire arcof one of the walker's weapons, and can then pivot the walker to face the target' to bring the walker's other weapons to bear.

insaniak wrote:

Lobukia wrote:@Formosa, think of it how ever you want, but when you shot, the Dread turns to face its target and has to expose its rear armor to someone in the opposite direction as the target.

If in your head its pivoting like a turret, sure... but if I'm shooting at a target due north of my dread, side armor is to the east and west and back armor is to the south. RAW/RAI.

Degrees and fire arcs only matter to immobilized dreads

This is not entirely true, although it's how a lot of players interpreted the rules prior to the current chaos faq.

Walkers do not get a free 360 degree pivot in the shooting phase. You choose a target from within the fire arcof one of the walker's weapons, and can then pivot the walker to face the target' to bring the walker's other weapons to bear.

Huh, I've never thought of it that way. The shooting rules do say that the shooting unit must be able to draw LOS to an enemy unit in order to designate them as a target, and the walker rules say that you can pivot towards the target. So the enemy must already be in LOS before the walker pivots.

However, you could say the same thing about infantry:

"Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting phase..." (p11)
"In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight." (p16)

Yes, I'm missing the part in the first quote that explains the intent of the rule, but it's similar enough to the wording for walkers to make me think that the intent for both of these rules is the same: that infantry and walkers should be able to get a free pivot when selecting their targets - otherwise, there's simply no point to the rule.

I used to think the same thing. However, the addition of the ruling in the Chaos FAQ on Fire Frenzy makes it fairly clear that the rule as intended by the studio was for the free pivot to merely allow you to bring both arms to bear, not to give walkers a full 360 degree pivot in the shooting phase.

It's not completely pointless, since the 45 degree arc combined with the width of the walker means there are going to be plenty of situations where only one weapon initially has LOS... it's just not as good as what used to effectively amount to 360 degree LOS. Although conversely it makes Chaos Dreadnoughts a little less rubbish.

The way I see it the 45 degree arc that the dreadnought's weapons have is due to being able to pivot at the waist. Just because its a machine doesn't mean it should automatically be able to spin its upper torso around like a top. The linkages passing through the narrow waist would be damaged or destroyed if it were to twist more than 45 degrees.

insaniak wrote:I used to think the same thing. However, the addition of the ruling in the Chaos FAQ on Fire Frenzy makes it fairly clear that the rule as intended by the studio was for the free pivot to merely allow you to bring both arms to bear, not to give walkers a full 360 degree pivot in the shooting phase.

It's not completely pointless, since the 45 degree arc combined with the width of the walker means there are going to be plenty of situations where only one weapon initially has LOS... it's just not as good as what used to effectively amount to 360 degree LOS. Although conversely it makes Chaos Dreadnoughts a little less rubbish.

See, the Chaos Dread thing is a little different in my mind. It gives you a very specific sequence of actions (pick a target in LOS, then pivot towards it), so seems to have a completely different set of intentions IMHO. Of course, arguing intent is still completely pointless, so I'll concede that, by RAW, walkers can only pivot towards targets already in LOS, but with the caveat that, by the same interpretation, so do infantry

Cheexsta wrote:"Infantry models can also be turned to face their targets in the Shooting phase..." (p11)
"In order to select an enemy unit as a target, at least one model in the firing unit must have line of sight." (p16)

Walkers are defined as having a 45 degree arc of sight to the front. (note that weapon arcs are "arc of sight" not "arc of fire")

So, yes they can turn to face their target but one model in the unit must already have line of sight.

That helps Kan squadrons, etc a lot but only helps dreads a little.

So am I correct in understanding that walkers(kans/dreads etc.) can only turn 22.5 degrees either direction for shooting? And can only shoot straight forward?

Edit: damn the double-post demon!

Cheexsta wrote:... so I'll concede that, by RAW, walkers can only pivot towards targets already in LOS, but with the caveat that, by the same interpretation, so do infantry

Yeah, I've made that exact same point in similar discussions in the past. We're just going to have to put it down to loose wording and live with it