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gregor_xenos wrote:Not possible. Nemisore has to "target" a friendly "Unit". The lightning is only an effect.
No it is not. The Necron FAQ allows you to use a Chronometron to re-roll Imotekh's ability, therefore it is caused by Imotekh. Therefore, you can use Nemesor Zandrekh to give Imotekh the Tank Hunters skill.
However, that's 410 points you have. The Necrons have so many options for opening up armour that this is a horribly inefficient -although creative- way to take out transports.
gregor_xenos wrote:Not possible. Nemisore has to "target" a friendly "Unit". The lightning is only an effect.
No it is not. The Necron FAQ allows you to use a Chronometron to re-roll Imotekh's ability, therefore it is caused by Imotekh. Therefore, you can use Nemesor Zandrekh to give Imotekh the Tank Hunters skill.
However, that's 410 points you have. The Necrons have so many options for opening up armour that this is a horribly inefficient -although creative- way to take out transports.
Without getting into issues of legality which are probably the perview of a YMDC thread, I don't think I'd qualify this as "horribly inefficient", and the 410 point cost is also a bit misleading.
The most efficient unit in the Necron codex is Imotekh for large scale battles. He performs the dual function of largely negating an opponent's range advantage via Night Fight for most of the game when coupled with a Chronometron-wielding Cryptek, as well as providing a random but statistically significant element of indirect firepower. That's 265 points (Imotekh 225, Chrono-tek 40) that we're going to spend anyway.**
So, for a lot of Necron armies the extra cost is really just Nemesor at 185 points. He brings a lot of weird stuffs to the table. The benefit for the Tank Hunting Lightningbolts alone, well, crap, I don't know, how do you quantify that? Expanding on the spoiler portion below, against a mech army and assuming half your lightning strikes occur against vehicles, it's the rough equivalent of upgrading one of your ghost Longfang units to Lascannons, maybe? Say roughly 60 points? Hard to say, against a Rhino the s8 lightning strikes are going to toast it anyway, against a Leman Russ or a Dreadnought that s9 will matter. The real cost is losng that CCB Lord.
Certainly helps defray the cost of buying Nemesor, and dead certain that if you have both Imotekh and Nemesor onboard you'll want to use it (at least the first couple turns while we're moving to contact).
**Imotekh efficiency
Spoiler:
** 265 for Imotekh + Chronotek: In a 2K point battle the opponent will usually field a dozen or so units, most more, a few less. That means the Lord of the Storm lightning will strike two units a turn, with 3.5 s8 ap5 hits each, with about a two-thirds chance of a Chronotek strike-count reroll adding another 1.5 s8 ap5 hits, for a total of around EIGHT hits per turn. That's the rough hit-equivalent of twelve ML attacks, or 300 points worth of SW Longfang missile launcher equipped marines in terms of raw firepower. Which you can't control. BUT the lightning can also strike ANYWHERE, including units set up behind hills or out of normal or night-fight range. I'd submit that the lightning strikes in a 2K battle are by themselves worth about, oh, 250 points. (Space Wolf Longfangs are very cost effective ML attacks, they can control their fire but they often won't get a clear LOS and/or will have to move, so that's about right.)
Then, the benefit of an average of 3.5 turns of night fighting depends on the opponent's list. Against an IG Mech army or Razorback Las/Plas spam, it's huge. Against Tyranids or an assaulty SM army, less so. On average though, with the current mech meta, I'd guesstimate that the defensive benefit of forcing the enemy to close is worth another 100-200 points. These are hand-waving numbers, but the bottom line is pretty clear - in a 2K battle we're likely to be taking Imotekh anyway.
Not only that but think about the unit you put him in. Maybe a squad of immortals or better yet 5 HoDestruction. You now have a unit that is shooting off either Str 6 shots at 24in (agains D. Eldar or rhinos this should make a mess of things) or 5 str 9 cryptek shots. Now that sounds nasty!
That sounds like gross overkill. They cannot split fire, so you're basically all but garaunteeing that the vehicle you shoot at is dead; although relaly no more so than if you just had the five Lanceteks on their own.
However, RandallTurner got the long and short of it. I guess I'm just hung up on the fact that Imotekh & Nemesor is the same priectag as Imotekh & an Overlord w/ Warscythe on a Barge, and to me that latter option is very important, and will usually get picked for my team even before Imotekh, nevermind Zandrekh.
I've considered clumping up a group of Lanceteks too, and came to the same conclusion vis a vis fire management limitations. It's tempting in terms of raw firepower, especially if we swap out one for the Chronotek we'll need, but the 2xLancetek per Troop is more flexible and usually more resilient.
Lot of people prefer CCB's. I'm admittedly partial to Imotekh for color. To me, he just epitomizes Necronicity. I've sorta got my friends acclimated to the idea that at the start of every single Necron fire phase I'm going "Bwuahahahaaa! Lightning Time!" and roll one by one for his dudes with "shhh-KRaacKK!" sound effects. Even on the misses. It's hilarious, they groan "cheating Necron bastards" and "i hate that f'ing guy".
I can't lie: there's something about keeping your opponent stuck in the darkness that gets very frustrating after a few turns.
As to clumping up Lanceteks, I just do not think it's a good idea. I'd rather hide a pair of Lanceteks in a minimum unit of Warriors. That way, you get five ablative wounds before you lose a Lancetek, and you get to better direct your Lanceteks' fire. I'm personally a big fan of hiding all of the Warriors completely behind cover, with only the Lanceteks visible, and then just taking potshots at targets while benefitting from the cover save.
Nemsor isn't all that bad. He does come with a res orb, and he can remove night fighting from an enemy unit. He also has a few good uses besides giving immotekh tank hunters.
He can give sypders or lychguard counter attack, which makes a huge difference.
He can give scarabs furious charge, which makes them 50% more effective against T4 targets.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
I think this combo with lightning is something that should be FAQed or "updated". Many will argue against its validity otherwise.
Z's adaptive tactics is not as broad-reaching as it sounds in this thread. He can only give it to one unit, once per TURN. So, if he give tank hunter to Imotekh for the turn, nobody else can get it.
IMO S8 vs S9 is not as important as actually hitting in the first place. If there was a way to TL the lightning or make it hit on 5's etc., that would be much better, especially for players like me who don't seem to have the knack of rolling 6's even at just the statistical average.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/22 12:28:43
Necrontyr40k wrote:If there was a way to TL the lightning or make it hit on 5's etc., that would be much better, especially for players like me who don't seem to have the knack of rolling 6's even at just the statistical average.
Well, that's kinda where the ChronoTek comes in handy (provided you didn't already need to use him to reroll to keep night-fight going, or something).
But using Zahndrekh to give Tank-Hunters to a unit with 5 Lances, Immotekh, and a ChronoTek in it? Jebus crust! That's just too much! ... isn't it? (it would be like a LITERAL Deathstar! as in, this unit fires at something and "millions of voices suddenly cry out in terror and are suddenly silenced" level of overkill)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/22 14:13:08
Remember that if Imhotek is the "source" of Lightning Strikes and Tank Hunters applies to them, then normal cover rules apply, as Lord of Storm has no absolutely no text saying they don't.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too. So, if you argue this, remember to tell your opponent that they will most likely get 4+ (or even 3+) cover saves against those Lighting
IMO the FAQ was very poor ruling, it made simple rule into complex by changing rule from armywide one to personal. Also remember that change didn't actually boost him, it was more of a nerf as he now gets hit by all the bad sides of Lord of Storm being personal instead army wide.
Luide wrote:Remember that if Imhotek is the "source" of Lightning Strikes and Tank Hunters applies to them, then normal cover rules apply, as Lord of Storm has no absolutely no text saying they don't.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too. So, if you argue this, remember to tell your opponent that they will most likely get 4+ (or even 3+) cover saves against those Lighting
IMO the FAQ was very poor ruling, it made simple rule into complex by changing rule from armywide one to personal. Also remember that change didn't actually boost him, it was more of a nerf as he now gets hit by all the bad sides of Lord of Storm being personal instead army wide.
Cover rules do not apply, because it is not a shooting attack. It takes place during the shooting phase, and it is an ability that Imotekh owns, but at no point does the codex ever say it is a shooting attack. Therefore, there is no cover save because there is no source of the effect, because it's not a shooting attack.
Luide wrote:Remember that if Imhotek is the "source" of Lightning Strikes and Tank Hunters applies to them, then normal cover rules apply, as Lord of Storm has no absolutely no text saying they don't.
So you can't have your cake and eat it too. So, if you argue this, remember to tell your opponent that they will most likely get 4+ (or even 3+) cover saves against those Lighting
IMO the FAQ was very poor ruling, it made simple rule into complex by changing rule from armywide one to personal. Also remember that change didn't actually boost him, it was more of a nerf as he now gets hit by all the bad sides of Lord of Storm being personal instead army wide.
Cover rules do not apply, because it is not a shooting attack. It takes place during the shooting phase, and it is an ability that Imotekh owns, but at no point does the codex ever say it is a shooting attack. Therefore, there is no cover save because there is no source of the effect, because it's not a shooting attack.
And the cake is delicious.
I see where this is going ;p
We do have some FAQ's that allow cover saves from abilities that are not specifically shooting attacks - though I'm not going to touch the argument regarding "shooting attacks can only ever not be taken against close combat attacks" with a 20 foot pole.
Note that vehicles are hit on the side armor, which actually simulates the top armor, because the lightning comes from above. As in lightning in a storm, from the Stormlord...
So, unless the unit is under a roof or in a tunnel, it is very difficult to see how they can ever get a cover save.
Also, it is clearly not a shooting attack because:
1) it is never called a shooting attack in the codex
2) it happens at the beginning of the shooting phase but does not involve Stormy's unit at all
3) it happens even if Stormy is still in the reserve. Codex, verbatim:"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, ..."
4) Stormy does not roll with his BS
You know what? I will be happy to house-rule it as a shooting attack from above. Then I will be hitting each of your units d6 times on a 3+ each, instead of on a 6 and then d6 times. How about it?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/22 21:04:14
All very interesting and valid points. I personally think that it should work because you are paying the points for the abilities so I don't see how it is unbalanced. If i want to spend the points for 4 laces 2 named HQ's and 1 or 2 chronometrons that is my choice. it fills the mandatory HQ slots and takes care of my tank popping needs.
4 lances in a court unit is a very vulnerable unit that can easily get shot up or assaulted. 2 in a pair of troops choices would have a lot more durability. With a unit of immortals it would end up being a lot of S6 shots +2 S9 ap1 shots.
There are a lot of possibilities and good synergies with nemsor. With nemsor + immotekh what is very likely to be more important than tank hunters is giving a friendly unit night fighting. Math hammer will almost always favor night fighting over tank hunters.
Sample. AV10, 11, 12, or 13 target is 16" from the nearest lance tek unit. A 6 or greater is needed to pass the night fight test, roughly a 27% chance of failure. With night fighting it goes down to a 7.2% chance of failure. Math hammer will favor the 20% improvement on night fighting over an 18% improvement on the to pen roll, especially since a single failed night fight roll means nobody from that unit can shoot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/23 02:45:28
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Necrontyr40k wrote:Note that vehicles are hit on the side armor, which actually simulates the top armor, because the lightning comes from above. As in lightning in a storm, from the Stormlord...
So, unless the unit is under a roof or in a tunnel, it is very difficult to see how they can ever get a cover save.
Also, it is clearly not a shooting attack because:
1) it is never called a shooting attack in the codex
2) it happens at the beginning of the shooting phase but does not involve Stormy's unit at all
3) it happens even if Stormy is still in the reserve. Codex, verbatim:"If your army includes Imotekh the Stormlord, ..."
4) Stormy does not roll with his BS
You know what? I will be happy to house-rule it as a shooting attack from above. Then I will be hitting each of your units d6 times on a 3+ each, instead of on a 6 and then d6 times. How about it?
The debate over the entire issue was in regards to abilities that granted cover beyond LOS. Smoke and Kustom Force Field. The codex never states that cover saves may only be taken gainst shooting attacks, only that they may never be taken agaisnt CC attacks. To arguably support this, cover saves are granted (via FAQ in some cases) to non-shooting attacks (auras) and attacks that hit automatically.
It's been argued to death, but I'm personally in the bag that cover saves - if granted by a source NOT linked to LOS - would be allowed. It's an argument for YMDC, though - not here.
Just so I'm clear, if you were to stick 2 ChronoTeks into Imotekh's unit, you would NOT be able to re-roll a failed Night Fight continuation roll twice, right? (so the initial roll [failed], the re-roll for the first ChronoTek [failed], the re-roll for the second ChronoTek).
However, it MIGHT help for his Lightning re-rolls.
skoffs wrote:Just so I'm clear, if you were to stick 2 ChronoTeks into Imotekh's unit, you would NOT be able to re-roll a failed Night Fight continuation roll twice, right? (so the initial roll [failed], the re-roll for the first ChronoTek [failed], the re-roll for the second ChronoTek).
Nope, unfortunately can only re-roll one time. (Global rule, any single roll can only be re-rolled once.)
However, it MIGHT help for his Lightning re-rolls.
Best use is re-rolling low D6 "strike" rolls, not the "hit" roll. Basically don't want to re-roll low probability of success rolls, you want to re-roll stuffs that failed on ones or twoes.
BUT the lightning can also strike ANYWHERE, including units set up behind hills or out of normal or night-fight range. I'd submit that the lightning strikes in a 2K battle are by themselves worth about, oh, 250 points. (Space Wolf Longfangs are very cost effective 
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