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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 12:29:42
Subject: China's demography problem
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2012/04/chinese-demography
A video of economists discussing the concept..
And an article: http://www.economist.com/node/21553056
Demography
China’s Achilles heel
A comparison with America reveals a deep flaw in China’s model of growth
Apr 21st 2012 | from the print edition
LIKE the hero of “The Iliad”, China can seem invincible. In 2010 it overtook America in terms of manufactured output, energy use and car sales. Its military spending has been growing in nominal terms by an average of 16% each year for the past 20 years. According to the IMF, China will overtake America as the world’s largest economy (at purchasing-power parity) in 2017. But when Thetis, Achilles’s mother, dipped her baby in the river Styx to give him the gift of invulnerability, she had to hold him somewhere. Alongside the other many problems it faces, China too has its deadly point of unseen weakness: demography.
Over the past 30 years, China’s total fertility rate—the number of children a woman can expect to have during her lifetime—has fallen from 2.6, well above the rate needed to hold a population steady, to 1.56, well below that rate (see table). Because very low fertility can become self-reinforcing, with children of one-child families wanting only one child themselves, China now probably faces a long period of ultra-low fertility, regardless of what happens to its one-child policy.
The government has made small adjustments to the policy (notably by allowing an only child who is married to another only child to have more than one child) and may adapt it further. But for now it is firmly in place, and very low fertility rates still prevail, especially in the richest parts of the country. Shanghai reported fertility of just 0.6 in 2010—probably the lowest level anywhere in the world. According to the UN’s population division, the nationwide fertility rate will continue to decline, reaching 1.51 in 2015-20. In contrast, America’s fertility rate is 2.08 and rising.
The difference between 1.56 and 2.08 does not sound large. But over the long term it has a huge impact on society. Between now and 2050 China’s population will fall slightly, from 1.34 billion in 2010 to just under 1.3 billion in 2050. This assumes that fertility starts to recover. If it stays low, the population will dip below 1 billion by 2060. In contrast, America’s population is set to rise by 30% in the next 40 years. China will hit its peak population in 2026. No one knows when America will hit its population peak.
The differences between the two countries are even more striking if you look at their average ages. In 1980 China’s median (the age at which half the population is younger, half older) was 22. That is characteristic of a young developing country. It is now 34.5, more like a rich country and not very different from America’s, which is 37. But China is ageing at an unprecedented pace. Because fewer children are being born as larger generations of adults are getting older, its median age will rise to 49 by 2050, nearly nine years more than America at that point. Some cities will be older still. The Shanghai Population and Family Planning Committee says that more than a third of the city’s population will be over 60 by 2020.
This trend will have profound financial and social consequences. Most obviously, it means China will have a bulge of pensioners before it has developed the means of looking after them. Unlike the rest of the developed world, China will grow old before it gets rich. Currently, 8.2% of China’s total population is over 65. The equivalent figure in America is 13%. By 2050, China’s share will be 26%, higher than in America.
In the traditional Chinese family, children, especially sons, look after their parents (though this is now changing—see story on next page). But rapid ageing also means China faces what is called the “4-2-1 phenomenon”: each only child is responsible for two parents and four grandparents. Even with high savings rates, it seems unlikely that the younger generation will be able or willing to afford such a burden. So most elderly Chinese will be obliged to rely heavily on social-security pensions.
China set up a national pensions fund in 2000, but only about 365m people have a formal pension. And the system is in crisis. The country’s unfunded pension liability is roughly 150% of GDP. Almost half the (separate) pension funds run by provinces are in the red, and local governments have sometimes reneged on payments.
But that is only part of a wider problem. Between 2010 and 2050 China’s workforce will shrink as a share of the population by 11 percentage points, from 72% to 61%—a huge contraction, even allowing for the fact that the workforce share is exceptionally large now. That means China’s old-age dependency ratio (which compares the number of people over 65 with those aged 15 to 64) will soar. At the moment the ratio is 11—roughly half America’s level of 20. But by 2050, China’s old-age ratio will have risen fourfold to 42, surpassing America’s. Even more strikingly, by 2050, the number of people coming towards the end of their working lives (ie, those in their 50s) will have risen by more than 10%. The number of those just setting out (those in their early 20s, who are usually the best educated and most productive members of society) will have halved.
Help wanted
The shift spells the end of China as the world’s factory. The apparently endless stream of cheap labour is starting to run dry. Despite pools of underemployed country-dwellers, China already faces shortages of manual workers. As the workforce starts to shrink after 2013, these problems will worsen. Sarah Harper of the Oxford Institute of Population Ageing points out that China has mapped out the age structure of its jobs, and knows for each occupation when the skills shortage will hit. It is likely to try to offset the impact by looking for workers abroad. Manpower, a business-recruitment firm, says that by 2030 China will be importing workers from outside, rather than exporting them.
Large-scale immigration poses problems of its own. America is one of the rare examples of a country that has managed to use mass immigration to build a skilled labour force. But America is an open, multi-ethnic society with a long history of immigration and strong legal and political institutions. China has none of these features.
In the absence of predictable institutions, all areas of Chinese society have relied on guanxi, the web of connections that often has extended family relations at the centre. But what happens when there are fewer extended families? One result could be a move towards a more predictable legal system and (possibly) a more open political culture. And, as shifts in China’s economy lead to lower growth, Chinese leaders will have to make difficult spending choices; they will have to decide whether to buy “guns or walking sticks”.
China is not unique in facing these problems. All rich countries have rising pension costs. And China has some advantages in dealing with them, notably low tax rates (giving room for future increases) and low public expectations of welfare. Still, China is also unusual in two respects. It is much poorer than other ageing countries, and its demographic transition has been much more abrupt. It seems highly unlikely that China will be able to grow its way economically out of its population problems. Instead, those problems will weigh down its growth rate—to say nothing of the immense social challenges they will bring. China’s Achilles heel will not be fatal. But it will hobble the hero.
So what's your opinion, is this a good thing, a bad thing, something else?
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 12:36:37
Subject: China's demography problem
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Brisbane, Australia
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It's an interesting article, but I find it hard to believe that all the US needs to do in this situation is spawn more babies.
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sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 14:12:50
Subject: China's demography problem
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Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine
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I feel all smart and intellectual because I already knew about this. Yeah, China's in trouble.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 14:42:45
Subject: China's demography problem
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Melissia wrote:So what's your opinion, is this a good thing, a bad thing, something else?
Unexpected consequences from heavy-handed government regulation?
I'm shocked, shocked that this could happen.
But seriously, I don't know if the consequence is a good thing or a bad thing. I suspect it's a mixture of both. The actions that led to this consequence? Definitely a bad thing. I don't think anyone will argue that gender-selective abortion and infanticide are a good thing.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 14:50:35
Subject: China's demography problem
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Oh no, where will we get cheap consumer goods from!
Quick someone get over there and have sex with those poor Chinese people!
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 14:51:50
Subject: China's demography problem
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Fixture of Dakka
On a boat, Trying not to die.
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biccat wrote:Melissia wrote:So what's your opinion, is this a good thing, a bad thing, something else?
Unexpected consequences from heavy-handed government regulation?
I'm shocked, shocked that this could happen.
But seriously, I don't know if the consequence is a good thing or a bad thing. I suspect it's a mixture of both. The actions that led to this consequence? Definitely a bad thing. I don't think anyone will argue that gender-selective abortion and infanticide are a good thing.
I can find some people who can.
But they're tinfoil hats are much to distracting.
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Every Normal Man Must Be Tempted At Times To Spit On His Hands, Hoist That Black Flag, And Begin Slitting Throats. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 14:57:44
Subject: China's demography problem
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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biccat wrote:I don't think anyone will argue that gender-selective abortion and infanticide are a good thing.
Both of these things are illegal in China and can be punished rhater severely. THAT particular problem is primarily cultural; China has a very misogynistic culture and we see the results of that culture in how it reacts to the "one child" policy, which itself I agree is probably poorly thought out, but we don't have to deal with an overpopulation problem quite like China does.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/23 14:59:30
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 14:59:23
Subject: China's demography problem
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Napoleonics Obsesser
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China is nothing to envy, nor am I worried about losing our status as the 'best' nation.
What percentage of China works in a hazardous industry that could be detrimental to their health? How many Chinese people live in that ever expanding swath of uninhabitable land?
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If only ZUN!bar were here... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 15:04:38
Subject: China's demography problem
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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biccat wrote:Melissia wrote:So what's your opinion, is this a good thing, a bad thing, something else?
Unexpected consequences from heavy-handed government regulation?
I'm shocked, shocked that this could happen.
.
Japan and Italy too have challengingly low birth rates without any heavy-handed government regulation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 15:16:26
Subject: China's demography problem
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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They both have excellent noodles. As Paul Atreides once asked, Is there a relationship?
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 15:18:48
Subject: China's demography problem
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Melissia wrote:biccat wrote:I don't think anyone will argue that gender-selective abortion and infanticide are a good thing.
Both of these things are illegal in China and can be punished rhater severely. THAT particular problem is primarily cultural; China has a very misogynistic culture and we see the results of that culture in how it reacts to the "one child" policy, which itself I agree is probably poorly thought out, but we don't have to deal with an overpopulation problem quite like China does.
And yet they still occur. The solution must be more regulation.
China doesn't have an overpopulation problem, they have a high population problem.
Kilkrazy wrote:Japan and Italy too have challengingly low birth rates without any heavy-handed government regulation.
Japan and Italy are also both fairly wealthy countries with distinct cultural pressures against having children. Japan especially.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 15:21:13
Subject: China's demography problem
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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biccat wrote:And yet they still occur. The solution must be more regulation.
While you were being sarcastic, you were actually quite right. Or, more accurately, more effectively enforcing regulation.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 15:25:17
Subject: China's demography problem
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Melissia wrote:biccat wrote:And yet they still occur. The solution must be more regulation.
While you were being sarcastic, you were actually quite right. Or, more accurately, more effectively enforcing regulation.
I'm not being sarcastic.
If you want to stop people from doing something, make it illegal.
If they keep doing it, make it more illegal.
If they persist in doing it, increase enforcement.
If they continue to do that thing, increase punishment.
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text removed by Moderation team. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 15:33:57
Subject: China's demography problem
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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biccat wrote:
Unexpected consequences from mass action?
Fixed that.
biccat wrote: I don't think anyone will argue that gender-selective abortion and infanticide are a good thing.
Depends on context.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/04/24 05:02:17
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 17:14:19
Subject: China's demography problem
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Oberleutnant
Germany
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Just read an very interesting article / analysis about the future of China. It seems that the hardest part (,,middle income trap") for China are still ahead.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 21:08:04
Subject: Re:China's demography problem
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Mutilatin' Mad Dok
SE Michigan
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As I recall several countries in Europe are facing demographic crises(besides Italy) I think right now Russia's the worst for demographic issues. It's more than just a Chinese issue
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 21:20:31
Subject: China's demography problem
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Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot
New York, USA
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Its because their populations depended on woman being housewives whos' sole purpose is child raising, now that they have jobs, they either don't want kids, don't want kids till its too late(they think looking and feeling young mean their eggs are still young, NOPE) or have fewer kids, so populations decline. While the U.S. is more or less stable in population(thanks to immigrants and Hispanics)
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"Surrender and Die."
"To an Immortal, to one among a legion, honor and your word are all that matter" - Phaeron Orionis of the Brotherhood
W-L-D
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 22:04:26
Subject: China's demography problem
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Servoarm Flailing Magos
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It's amazing how quick Americans are to come up with reasons that China will stumble.
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Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/23 22:05:07
Subject: China's demography problem
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Consigned to the Grim Darkness
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Joey wrote:It's amazing how quick Americans are to come up with reasons that China will stumble.
Actually, the writers of the article were British.
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The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 00:25:43
Subject: China's demography problem
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Rough Rider with Boomstick
Brisbane, Australia
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Samus_aran115 wrote:...nor am I worried about losing our status as the 'best' nation.
You've got a funny idea as to what 'best' means.
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sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Its a known fact that Aussies are genetically disposed towards crime, we intentionally set them up that way.
But only awesome crimes like bushranging and, if I understand the song correctly, sheep stealing and suicide. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 01:42:00
Subject: China's demography problem
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Brutal Black Orc
The Empire State
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notprop wrote:
Quick someone get over there and have sex with those poor Chinese people!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 02:31:06
Subject: China's demography problem
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Regular Dakkanaut
SF, USA
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Oh god my eyes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 02:41:18
Subject: China's demography problem
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Renegade Inquisitor de Marche
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Piston Honda wrote:notprop wrote:
Quick someone get over there and have sex with those poor Chinese people!

When you're in a slightly to very oppressive country and when speaking out may get you arrested, sometimes the best thing to do is start taking your clothes off...
Like Ghandi but with less clothes...
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Dakka Bingo! By Ouze
"You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 02:42:51
Subject: China's demography problem
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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Samus_aran115 wrote:China is nothing to envy, nor am I worried about losing our status as the 'best' nation.
What percentage of China works in a hazardous industry that could be detrimental to their health? How many Chinese people live in that ever expanding swath of uninhabitable land?
oh I forget the company, but they worked with apple. A bunch of the Chinese employees where threatening to jump off the roof if working conditions didn't improve. so ya that's a big problem, but on the other hand, I hear you can make a good living farming gold for WOW players there
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 02:54:45
Subject: China's demography problem
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought
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sirlynchmob wrote:Samus_aran115 wrote:China is nothing to envy, nor am I worried about losing our status as the 'best' nation.
What percentage of China works in a hazardous industry that could be detrimental to their health? How many Chinese people live in that ever expanding swath of uninhabitable land?
oh I forget the company, but they worked with apple. A bunch of the Chinese employees where threatening to jump off the roof if working conditions didn't improve. so ya that's a big problem, but on the other hand, I hear you can make a good living farming gold for WOW players there 
I believe the company you are referring to is called Foxconn.
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Iron Warriors 442nd Grand Battalion: 10k points |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 05:01:25
Subject: China's demography problem
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Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges
United States
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biccat wrote:
If you want to stop people from doing something, make it illegal.
If they keep doing it, make it more illegal.
If they persist in doing it, increase enforcement.
If they continue to do that thing, increase punishment.
Alternatively, accept the behavior, or a certain rate of incidence of the behavior (the latter is basically necessary regardless).
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Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 06:08:34
Subject: China's demography problem
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Disciplined Sea Guard
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notprop wrote:Oh no, where will we get cheap consumer goods from!
Quick someone get over there and have sex with those poor Chinese people!
your funny brother. The USA is not in a better situation either.
times are rough allover the world, But i do hope for something good to happen soon.
as for the sex?... well i guess i'll step in to help out
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Beer, Ale, Mead,.. for me!
W-L record;
-Fantasy
Dwarfs .v. Chaos 5-0
Dwarfs .v. Tomb Kings 4-1
Orcs & Gobbos .v. Empire 3-32
Orcs & Gobbos .v. Chaos 5-9
Orcs & Gobbos .v. Tomb Kings 1-4
Orcs & Gobbos .v. Bretonnia 4-1
Vampire counts .v. Empire 0-5
Vampire counts .v. Bretonnia 3-2
Vampire counts .v. chaos 5-2
Orcs & Gobbos .v. Vampire counts 0-2
-40k
Tau .v. Nids 2-5
Tau .v. Space marines 3-7
Tau .v. Chaos 0-8
Tau .v. Necrons 1-8
Tau .v. Dark Eldar 2-8
Tau .v. IG 1-9
Orks .v. Chaos 4-9
Orks .v. I.G. 1-32-1Tac. draw
Orks .v. Grey Knights 3-7
Orks .v. Eldar 0-3
Orks .v. Tau 1-4
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 11:19:11
Subject: China's demography problem
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Piston Honda wrote:notprop wrote:
Quick someone get over there and have sex with those poor Chinese people!

Thats the thread winner right there!
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 11:41:02
Subject: China's demography problem
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Huge Hierodule
The centre of a massive brood chamber, heaving and pulsating.
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This could actually be a good thing for the Chinese people. If the population falls drasticly, then the value of each individual person's life will be considered "worth more" by companies. At the moment, in many companies in China, it's cheaper to get another worker than to implement safety measures. Smaller population=harder to get workers=better working conditions (hopefully). Also, the smaller population should help improve nationwide standards of living and reduce overcrowding problems.
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Squigsquasher, resident ban magnet, White Knight, and general fethwit.
buddha wrote:I've decided that these GW is dead/dying threads that pop up every-week must be followers and cultists of nurgle perpetuating the need for decay. I therefore declare that that such threads are heresy and subject to exterminatus. So says the Inquisition! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2012/04/24 12:01:40
Subject: China's demography problem
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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dogma wrote:Alternatively, accept the behavior, or a certain rate of incidence of the behavior (the latter is basically necessary regardless).
If you accept the behavior then the counterrevolutionaries terrorists win.
When your power is based on controlling every minor element of everyone's life, allowing any behavior that undermines the party state isn't acceptable.
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