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So, i'm building up my DE collection, and am planning for a 1750 Alpha strike list, inspired by this tactica by CalasTyphoon216 http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/CalasTyphon216%27s_Alpha_Strike_Dark_Eldar (So if you read this, big thank you for the inspiration)

I've decided to go for an Alpha Strike army (to start off with, i'm sure in the future it'll expand) over a venom spam, or WWP, or some random mish mash list because I want a slightly more competitive army build over my current CSM army (and the options I have for that), but I didn't want to go for a perhaps generic Venom Spam list, and although I really like the idea of WWP, I want to start off a bit more mechanised. Plus this alpha strike list has something I really like, Vect a expensive but deadly HQ (I use Abaddon). Anyway here is the list:

Asdurbael Vect 240
Lady Malys 130

Wyches x9 (Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix W/ Agoniser) 130
Wyches x9 (Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix W/ Agoniser) 130
Wyches x10 (Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix W/ Agoniser) 140
Wyches x10 (Hydra Gauntlets, Hekatrix W/ Agoniser) 140
-Raider (Shock Prow, Flikerfield) 75 x4 300

Hellions x10 (Phantasm grenade launcher, Hlliarch W/ Stunclaw) 195

Ravager (Flikerfield) 115
Ravager (Flikerfield) 115
Ravager (Flikerfield) 115

1750

A few notes (and sorry in advance if they seem a little rude or picky, but i'm kinda looking for some specific advice, and don't want to waste your time and effort) this is an alpha strike list, that will not be changing. It 'needs' Vect and Malys to work, i've seen Baron mentioned with his +1 to roll off for who choses to go first, but the 4+ steal from Vect I think is more worthwhile (might be better to steal the initiative in some cases, than get the choice first, either way it works) plus from the one playtest game I did (with a 250 point beast squad instead of the Hellions and a few upgrades) Vect started mincing through Genestealers, something which even Abaddon struggles with from time to time.

Also, I think (plus based on the models I already have) the 4 Raiders and 3 Ravagers need to stay, and the Wyches in those raiders. Unless you have experience playing this kind of list and can suggest something better, I think to start with thats my best option (again pointing back to models I already have is influencing some choices). So really what I want to know is, are Hellions the best choice? Do I have all the necessary upgrades on the wyches and vehicles (or too many?).

I know this isn't going to be the best DE list in the world, but I really like the tactical idea of Alpha strike, and with Vect and Malys, it works really well, hitting things with 38 Wyches in a lot of cases is going to work pretty well I reckon. There will obviously be games that I struggle in, I think when playing a list like this your almost got to think, what works best in within this tactical framework, rather than what works best against the 'meta' or something like that.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any advice you have for me.

You've got the right idea in that a good DE army usually needs a strong alpha strike to be effective, however, I feel like you could be going about it more efficiently. I certainly understand being limited by one's current models, we've all been there before. However, you mentioned that you wanted this list to be able to compete in competitive play. While this list would do well in a local tournament. I wouldn't expect to see that much success at a larger event.

Here's why.

Almost a fourth of your whole army is invested into two models. Now, before reading your list and comments, I wen ahead and read the posted link so I could get an idea of where you're coming from. I've seen the vect malys combo before, and they work quite nicely together, but there are just too many flaws with that pair to make them reliable in a competitive setting. First, I completely disagree with the article when it mentioned that you should not bring the combo in games under 1750. Personally, I wouldn't even bring vect alone unless it was 2500pts. As you probably know, the purpose of any competitive list is to essentially get the strongest and most beneficial units for the smallest cost possible. Now, Vect and Malys' combined powers are pretty cool, but they are definitely not worth spending 370 points on. Lets break the two characters down individually, starting with Vect. Vect is the monster of Dark City. He's extremely capable in CC, has a cool thrown grenade that regenerates wounds, and seizes on the 4+. He also comes with some not so nifty weaknesses. 1. he's T3 so almost anything that gets past his shadowfield will kill him. wyches aren't that hard to kill and once they're gone, dump bolters on him until he fails 1 save, if the other shots don't kill him, a single missile or autocannon is all it takes and all competitive armies can field plenty of S6 and above guns. Next, is his point cost. You're paying 240pts for a character thats T3, without eternal warrior, and who has a counterpart that has a more efficient perk than he does (i'll get to this later). Yes, that brings me to my next point, the fact that seizing on a 4+ can often be a weakness. In the current meta, the most common army at the moment is, you guessed it, the grey knights. Probably the most common HQ you will be up against in a GK list is Coteaz, who forces people to reroll successful seize rolls (along with many other annoying things). So against that type of list, your odds of successfully seizing drop by 25%. But lets not talk about specific examples and instead focus on the general picture. Lets pretend and say your opponent won the roll to go first. According to your explanation, you will always deploy as if you are going first because of the seize ability. if you're going second, you have a 50% chance to seize/go first. couple that with actually going first and you'll be going first about 75% of the time which is pretty good. It also means that you will lose 25% of your games. As a Dark Eldar player, if you deploy like you are going first, relying on a seize roll that doesn't come, you will get torn to shreds on turn 1. Yes, with malys you can redeploy d3 units if you don't get it. D3 units won't really help though. you have 8 potential targets for your opponent in your army, none of which are very resilient at all. redeploying d3 units will just give a cover save to d3 of you units, leaving the rest of them high and dry. And lets be serious, if you are losing 1/4 of your games before the game even starts, there's a problem.

Now, on to Vect's better option. The Baron. My friend, the baron, is not nearly as effective in CC as vect, has a worse statline, and can appear to be difficult to mesh with a lot of DE armies. Why do a lot of competitive list have him? Easy. His +1 to go first is awesome and cannot be countered by any other codex. With S6 on the charge, he get a result on any vehicle short of a land raider or stormraven on the charge. He confers Stealth to whatever unit he is with. He give the squad he is with assault and defensive grenades. He's much less of a bullet magnet than Vect is. And best of all, he's only 105 points. So vect, is a CC monster with a single perk used before the game. A one trick pony. The baron, though not as effective in CC, gives a more reliable pre-game perk, continues to provide bonuses throughout the game, and is a very versatile, efficient character. On a side note, if you decide to use him, he works the best with beasts by giving them stealth along the way and then helping them in CC.

Now let's look at Malys she is as the article said, an archon with mediocre gear that lets you redeploy d3 units. Is that in any way worth 130pts? I might pay 30 for that ability if i got to put it on a character that could benefit the army once the perk was used. Yes, she makes her squad immune to psychic wounds which is cool, especially with GK being so popular, except that any smart GK player would just kill her and her squad with psybolted storm bolters (which you aren't protected against) or just normal storm bolters. Maybe if she had an agoniser people would take her more often, but she doesn't and will be wounding your opponent's basic troop choice on a 5+ while they wound you on a 3+.

Now lets look at your list. I know you said you don't want to change it, so you don't have to if you don't want to.

You already know my thoughts about your HQ, if you want the alpha strike, just stick with the baron. 265 points cheaper than your current method.

You need more anti tank in this list. The general rule of thumb for adark eldar list is that you should have one lance shot (blaster or lance, both count) per 100 points. In this case, that means 18. It looks like you were making up for that a bit with haywire grenades but they won't cut it. Haywire grenades can effectively stunlock stationary targets and thats about all they reliably and consistently do. If the enemy vehicle moves, at least half of your grenades will miss and who's going let you charge a vehicle that was stationary the turn before? Even on the first turn, I assure you that they won't be deploying on the line so you probably wont get the first turn charge. which means that the vehicles will get to move. Also, most vehicles now days are transports. If your wyches kill the transport, you get to deal with an angry troop squad next turn while standing in the open, with T3 models, a 6+ save, and no FNP. You want to use wyches on the contents of the metal boxes not the boxes themselves. Your ravagers should be busy sniping predators, manticores, land raiders, stormravens, etc, and wont be able to help you here (most of the things that fall out of a LR or a raven is something your wyches should stay away from). To fix this, you have a few options. You can go the standard route and get 3-4 trueborn with blasters in a venom, you could get 3-5 trueborn with two dark lances and put them in cover, or you can get some scourges with either dark lances, blasters, or heat lances. I usually pick the first option as it gives be more lance shots per point and i get another venom. So try to fit some lances into your elite slots.

I'd personally drop the wych squads down to 8x per squad. 2 extra wyches wont help much, and if you do that you can just make a fifth squad,especially if you drop them down to 7 (but don't go below that as the become to fragile and not strong enough in CC). So in this case, maybe five squads of 7-8 wyches should be ok.

Hellions are are cool in fun games but they die way too fast, especially without the baron or a pain token, to be taken in a competitive match. They are also very overpriced. 195pts for ten T3 5+ save models? that wound most things on a 5+? only have 2 attacks? that aren't power weapons and don't rend? No thanks. I'd switch these guys out for a nice beast squad if i were you.

Ravagers are, of course, good.

Hope that helps.

Thank you for all your advice, i'm definatly going to take it all on board. Without going too much into specifics, I will definatly follow your advice closely when (or If) I get to go to some more competitive tournaments. I've pretty much got/getting everything I need for this list, so it'll be my starting point for a while, and if it really doesn't work even in friendly games i'll start to change things quicker.

I do get what your saying about the HQs, but I do like expensive HQs, and at my club at least they seem to work out quite well. You'll always see an Abaddon or Swarmlord on display. And while Vect and Malys may not be as tough (Malys no where near as killy either) they are pretty cool. I don't mind losing, although the plan was to try and win more often than I do with my CSM, which may or may not happen, and if it doesn't happen then i'll be making changes even quicker.

As for your comment about Beasts ahead of Hellions, well that was my plan. I've changed my mind (although not completely) for a few reasons, mostly because in the playtest game I did, I had a 250 point squad (too much) and it died to 3-4 Ymgarl stealers... It was completely my fault, I decided not to move through terrain (the unit was well within range, would have needed a terrible move, fleet and assault role to miss out), which mean't I only got a few models in, but I only did that because I didn't have nades, but I neglected the fact that the Ymgarls were going before or at the same time as everything in the squad, so the few models they killed off, that didn't attack anyway because they were from the back, wouldn't have mattered because then the rest of the unit, rather than just 5/6 models (think I had 4 masters, 4 razorwings, 8 kymera and 1 clawed fiend, maybe more than that, can't remember exactly), two (or even three) of which were the fairly tame beastmasters. I also then rolled poorly, and killed none, ran away and died.

Plus there is the cost of the models, I could do some conversions (would have to do some research to see whats best). I don't actually have Hellions yet, so maybe there is still a chance for the beasts.

WOW !!
That's a wall of text!!
Remind me to ask you to review my next SM list

Well done!
The forum serves its purpose!

If you want a cheap beast squad, buy some LotR wargs. its $17 for 6 of them and they come with 40k sized based. for razorwings, use the leftover spikes from your vehicle kits for the birds. glue them together such that they resemble a sort of flying metal boomerang. Then mount them with clippings of the spear poles, also form the vehicle kits. about 2cm should do. then just buy a pack of 40mm bases to put them on. for beastmasters, just use hellions. you get 5 and can conver 1 into a baron if you want. So for around $50, you can get the Baron, 4 beastmasers, 6 khymerae, and 5 razorwing bases.

good deal yes?

On a side note, all of those are GW models so it's all GT legal.

I'd exchange the HydraGs for haywires for 3 of the crews. You'll be running into tanks/transports with only 13 lances to bring 'em down.

I went blind with the wall of text and just looked at the list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Starless Night wrote:If you want a cheap beast squad, buy some LotR wargs. its $17 for 6 of them and they come with 40k sized based. for razorwings, use the leftover spikes from your vehicle kits for the birds. glue them together such that they resemble a sort of flying metal boomerang. Then mount them with clippings of the spear poles, also form the vehicle kits. about 2cm should do. then just buy a pack of 40mm bases to put them on. for beastmasters, just use hellions. you get 5 and can conver 1 into a baron if you want. So for around $50, you can get the Baron, 4 beastmasers, 6 khymerae, and 5 razorwing bases. .

I like this. I bought Dire Wolves for Khyms. And made these for RWF:



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