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Alright so I've played around 10 games with a Jetbike/Mech army for eldar at 1500 points (Ill include my list later on, not really looking for critique on that, just the HQ part).

Now I have included an Autarch over 3 more Warlocks simply for the PW attacks.

But I have faced 3 IG Horde Players and a Kan Wall in those 10 games, and it feels like my list is somewhat lacking in the anti horde department, and that my Counsel is a bit fragile with only 7 people including the Autarch and Seer.

Would the counsel benefit more from dropping the Autarch for 3 Seers and some upgrades on the Serpents?

Or is it just my rolling that has been poor? The Locks perform Great, but the Autarch generally doesn't kill enough points worth of models to justify his high points cost.

I realize he's good at killing marines, and he has made an effect there, but 9 Non PW Attacks over it isn't to shabby, not even mentioning the witchblades against tanks.

Heres my list I've been using based on the models I have (Everything else seems to be doing its job quite well):

HQ: (590)
Autarch (130) w/ Jetbike, Laser Lance, Mandiblasters
Warlock (170) w/ Runes of Warding, Spirit Stones, Jetbike, Fortune, Mind War
Warlocks x5 (245) w/ Enhance x1, Embolden x1, Jetbikes

ELITES: (196)
Fire Dragons x6 (96)
Wave Serpent (100) w/ TL Shuri Cannons

TROOPS: (350)
Dire Avengers x 5 (60)
Wave Serpent (115) w/ TL Scatter Lasers
Dire Avengers x 5 (60)
Wave Serpent (115) w/ TL Scatter Lasers
Dire Avengers x 5 (60)
Wave Serpent (115) w/ TL Scatter Lasers

HEAVY: (230)
Fire Prism (115)
Fire Prism (115)

TOTAL: 1494

Well for horde, it might be worth it to pick up destructor on a couple of those warlocks. Templates go a long way towards anti-horde.
I like the autarch because you have some guaranteed punch to your assault, rather than hoping for failed saves. He also can split off the council and hit a small unit by himself. Most likely he will beat it in combat on the charge. Split him off on the turn of a big multicharge with a parking lot. Warlocks go after tanks, autarch goes after backfield scouts/devastators/lootas. Extra warlocks might not be able to pull something like that off.

Just my 2 cents

I see where your coming from, I'm going to have some trouble dropping the points for destructor, but thats for the army list section

I'll certainly take your advice and try to do that as it sounds logical.

racta wrote:Well for horde, it might be worth it to pick up destructor on a couple of those warlocks. Templates go a long way towards anti-horde.
I like the autarch because you have some guaranteed punch to your assault, rather than hoping for failed saves.

+1 on the destructor templates. 4 or 5 flamer templates go a long way to clearing out hordes before you assault. If he pulls back all models within 6", you can just move back in your assault phase to get out of his assault range! Gotta love eldar jetbikes.

The OP said he faced orks and guard quite often. Unlike MEQ, witch blades are great against those targets. The only real weakness they have is few attacks. That's why his squad of 6 or 7 models is getting bogged down by blog IG. Sure they can churn through 40 IG, but it will take 3-4 turns. (ie, the game)

Well, first of all, 5 Jetlocks and a Jetseer is a good portion of points in such a small points game. I usually run Jetlocks at the 2k range, and after my other requirements are met.

First of all, i'd lose the SS + Mind War on the Farseer. Secondly, i'd bring some destructors with the Jetlocks. This gives them great anti-horde utilities, together with the Prisms and TL-SL WS'es.

I don't agree with having that many DAVU WS'es either. I think you'd be better off with only two of them. The last Troops choice i'd recommend would be 3 Guardian Jetbikes /w SC and a Jetlock /w Embolden + Spear. This gives you a fast and flexible platform, that can fill various roles.

As for the FD WS, i'd trim the squad down to 5 FD's. They're already magnificent at busting vehicles within their 2D6 melta range. And after the drop, they usually die. (Personally, I perfer 2x FD WS'es with SC).

Lastly, I run my Autarch just the way you are, but with a Fusion Gun as well, as this often allows for him to take out a Transport with ease, and hence assault the stuffing in the same turn.

Lastly, I'd recommend that you utilize the size of your WS'es fully, and protect your Jetbikes from assaults. You want to be able to control who is assaulting who, as it'd be devastating for the Jetlocks not to be the one engaging in assault.

I've made changes and I've tried to use GJB, but they paled in comparison to a WS, it takes fire Off the locks.

Most of your points were addressed in that: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/443261.page

You're bringing all those avengers and scatter lasers and are having trouble against hordes?

If you want an anti-horde HQ, then you need mind war. There is no horde based army that mind war won't help against, and in certain circumstances (like guard blobs or boy mobz), a well-timed mind war can cause them to fall apart in a hurry.

I've been spanked before by an all-bike eldar army before. In this case, my opponent brought a farseer with 6 warlocks with destructor and embolden. If he had bothered with mind war, he could have folded my army, rather than me eeking out a draw in the end. He did pretty well in the rest of that league too, so I know this build for a council (in combination with everything else) is at least reasonably strong.

Ailaros wrote:You're bringing all those avengers and scatter lasers and are having trouble against hordes?

If you want an anti-horde HQ, then you need mind war. There is no horde based army that mind war won't help against, and in certain circumstances (like guard blobs or boy mobz), a well-timed mind war can cause them to fall apart in a hurry.

I've been spanked before by an all-bike eldar army before. In this case, my opponent brought a farseer with 6 warlocks with destructor and embolden. If he had bothered with mind war, he could have folded my army, rather than me eeking out a draw in the end. He did pretty well in the rest of that league too, so I know this build for a council (in combination with everything else) is at least reasonably strong.

Good to get the point of view of a Horde player!

The scatter lasers help, but arent quite enough to provide valuable anti horde at 1500.

In my other list I have 2 more flamers, which I feel should make my anti horde fine, because I should be able to hit at least 10 models, and with S5 its wounding orks on 3's and GEQ on 2's.

Lastly, thats exactly why I took mind war, I've used it to take out a Commissar, pick out PW SGT's, and I've killed a Big Mek with it. So, it certainly is useful.

I wouldn't rely too much on template weapons, though. You're eldar, which means you can use speed to get the templates in slightly better locations, but a savvy player will be able to spread out enough to avoid taking too many hits per template blast.

I much more fear bladestorming than destructoring, as I can do things to mitigate the damage from the latter, but I don't really have any choice but to take it on the chin against the former.

@Ailaros
I've seen you post some good points more times than not, so I've grown pretty confident in your tactical analysis.
- Now you're contradicting me on the Mind War... What am I missing about that ability? O.o

If your dealing with hordes you could add destructor to 2 of them, that will bang out 20-30 models.

Fortune seer on bike
x2 Embolden locks
x2 Enhance locks
x6 Destructor locks

500+ point unit, but hordes are dead

Billinator wrote:- Now you're contradicting me on the Mind War... What am I missing about that ability? O.o

Destructor is just a way to throw on a few more casualties against a unit that took extra bodies for the explicit purpose of absorbing higher casualties.

Mind war, on the other hand, can break stuff in nasty ways. For example, if a jetlock council beats a power blob by 2 and the blob has a commissar, they are making a Ld9 morale check that is rerollable. If you snipe out the commissar, and then win by two, that blob is making a Ld6 morale check with no reroll against an opponent with a higher initiative. With the commissar, the blob slowly grinds you to death. Without the commissar, the squad is a sweeping advance waiting to happen. Mind war makes the difference.

Likewise, boyz may be fearless in big numbers, but once they take casualties, they'll need to start taking leadership tests. Meanwhile, the nob with a klaw is going to use your bikes as a punching bag, and when the numbers get thin, he's giving rerolls to the boyz (who are losing combat by less due to the klaw). Once again, pop the nob with mind war, and you've got more bikes surviving, which means that you drag the mob down out of fearless faster, and once you do, you're going to win by a wider margin and the boyz won't have rerolls (and I2...) Once again, it's the difference between greater cost in time and models and mind war making your life a lot easier.

Mind war can also put several wounds on synapse creatures and nasty HQ's that try to come in and bail out the little dudes, and even just killing the sergeant in most squads reduces their leadership by a point or two.

Fortune is a good ability, and others are also, to a somewhat lesser extent, but if you're fighting off clouds of units with crappy individual models, a proper mind war may gut such a squad's killing power (by picking out otherwise hidden power weapons, power fists, and the like), and make a crisis of leadership much more likely.

Thanks everyone contribution!

@smitty0305: Thats what I have right now, if I wanted to drop Spirit Stones and Mind War I could add more, however, as I've seen you say before, that would be overkill, and most likely put me out of assault (If the players smart with allocation).

@Old Man Ultramarine: Right now, points dont allow that whatsoever, and I feel like that would be overkill at this level.

@Ailaros: I feel like keeping Mind War would be helpful for all the reasons you have mentioned, it will make a Kan Wall fall apart on decent rolls, destroy powerblobs, and deny Blood Angels FNP.

Ailaros wrote:You're bringing all those avengers and scatter lasers and are having trouble against hordes?

If you want an anti-horde HQ, then you need mind war. There is no horde based army that mind war won't help against, and in certain circumstances (like guard blobs or boy mobz), a well-timed mind war can cause them to fall apart in a hurry.

I've been spanked before by an all-bike eldar army before. In this case, my opponent brought a farseer with 6 warlocks with destructor and embolden. If he had bothered with mind war, he could have folded my army, rather than me eeking out a draw in the end. He did pretty well in the rest of that league too, so I know this build for a council (in combination with everything else) is at least reasonably strong.

Doesn't mind war deal X wounds to one miniature, but not X wounds to one unit of miniatures?

So mind war on a IG squad would deal 6 wounds to one guardsman?




PS: I see, so you snipe off the HQ to ensure hoardes fold more easily

You declare a model the get mind warred, then each player rolls a D6, and adds that to their models LD value, however much the Seer beats the other person by decides the wounds. If they win, nothing happens. So if a Seer mind wars a LD 7 model, they roll a 3, i roll a 4 they lose 4 wounds, I believe Cover and Invuls Apply.

EDIT: Saw your Signature, you prolly knew that. Doh.

But yes, so essentially you use it to snipe off the buffing HQ's/Upgrades or the PF SGT's in a squad before you charge in so that you ensure winning combat.

severedblue wrote:So mind war on a IG squad would deal 6 wounds to one guardsman?

It would deal 6 wounds to the commissar, causing the unit to be -1Ld, lose its source of rerolls for morale tests, and, most importantly, lose stubborn.

Power blobs do little damage in any given turn, and, as such, rely on turn after turn over which to apply that killing power. Deny them several turns to do damage, and you defeat the blob. Removing the commissar does just this.

Why, oh why do you not have doom on your Farseer?? That should almost double the effectiveness of ANY shooting against a horde. Doom the horde and shoot, and kill, and kill, and kill some more. Especially if you start adding in destructor. Twin linked Heavy flamer damage to a blob? MUAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA

I want to use the Seer Counsel to Assault, if I were to wipe out a large amount of models with the Doomed Flamer, sure they'd be dead, but I'd have every shooting attack pointed at them the next turn since their out in the open. (6" Assault move doesn't always cut it.)

Exactly. Savvy players will cause you to no longer be in assault range once you've shot them up. Doom is still a good idea, though.

It's too bad you can't have doom, fortune, and mind war all on the same farseer. Perhaps it would be worth your time to take two of them. Both have fortune, and one has mind war to crack those tough units directly in close combat, and the other has doom to allow the rest of your stuff to kill stuff with shooting better. I don't know how much that autarch is really helping you by comparison (unless you like all-reserves 'dar).

Ailaros wrote:Exactly. Savvy players will cause you to no longer be in assault range once you've shot them up. Doom is still a good idea, though.

It's too bad you can't have doom, fortune, and mind war all on the same farseer. Perhaps it would be worth your time to take two of them. Both have fortune, and one has mind war to crack those tough units directly in close combat, and the other has doom to allow the rest of your stuff to kill stuff with shooting better. I don't know how much that autarch is really helping you by comparison (unless you like all-reserves 'dar).

Eldrad in a tank with the seer council has obvious benefits. The main one being Eldrad can fortune the council, and then they can turbo boost for a 3+ invul save instead of a 4+ , which you cant do without eldrad.

@Ailaros: right now the autarch is so that the counsel can speed through tac squads and other mean enemies with ease. He has 6 S6 attacks at I6 PW attacks on the charge. So until I can expand the counsel to a larger size, he really helps.

@smitty0305: I saw your battle report when you used that combo, it's certainly a new thought, I just feel like I would not be able to pull that off at 1500 points like you can in 2000. Im planning on giving it a try in a higher level tournament once one rolls around and when I get eldrad.

Eldar struggle at 1500pts given how weak their Troops are. You really need 3 scoring units which barely leaves you any points to cover your anti tank and anti horde options and afford appropriate redundancy. Personally I avoid playing Eldar below 1750 since its just too hard to fit all the things you need in. A JetCouncil list is a tough list to begin with, but at 1500 its even more challenging.

First off, your Seer needs Witnessing. If you fail Fortune the Council just becomes a massively overpriced unit of Marine bikes, and you probably get smashed. Admittedly it doesn't help much again Rune Priest and Librarians, but it means you don't have to worry about other Eldar with Warding and Nids (since you aren't in a vehicle to avoid it).

In general a Council needs to be at least 8 strong to be effective, you need as many bodies as you can get to generate the attacks you need to get wounds through armour saves. With only 5 guys a couple of casualties drops your damage output down to the point that it barely even threatens a Tactical Squad. The issue is that you have very few places to get points. The Autarch is probably the most obvious place, dropping him gets you an extra couple of Warlocks which boosts your anti tank and long term damage output at the expense of your burst damage on the charge. Since you need the Dragons (really you need 2 you just can't afford it, just cross your fingers you don't face a double Land Raider list) and the Prisms (good all rounders) the only other place you can really free up some points is in your troops. You still really want at least 3 scoring units, but changing to something like 2 x 3 Jetbikes (who go in reserve every game) and 5 Avengers in a Falcon (since its more durable) saves you about 180 points, which gets you the 2-3 more Warlocks you need to be a real threat (or even 2 Warlocks and another 3 Jetbikes).