Vampire Counts or Lizardmen, which to buy?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

First off, hello everyone! Long time lurker here, I finally made an account to hopefully get some questions answered.

I've been playing 40k for over a year and now WHF is starting to interest me. I'm wondering whether Vampire Counts or Lizardmen would be the best choice for me. Lizardmen interest me because I've always loved dinosaurs, and Vampire Counts because BA are my main army I play in 40k and they have a similar theme going, plus I love their models. More specific questions I have:

1.) What are the pros and cons of each, both game play wise and cost wise? (I have a basic understanding of WHF after playing a couple demo games with a friend at GW, so feel free to get into specifics)

2.) How does each army play like? The 40K armies I play are BA, Nids, and GK. Which would I feel most comfortable with?

3.) Considering Vampire Counts just got a new codex, what are the chances Lizardmen will get a new codex sometime soon (If I remember right, their codex came out in 09)

4.) How are their Battalions like? Which one is a better deal? What should I buy to get started with each army?

**HoverBoy**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:1.) What are the pros and cons of each, both game play wise and cost wise? (I have a basic understanding of WHF after playing a couple demo games with a friend at GW, so feel free to get into specifics)

For cost LM are deffinately a better deal as VC need heaps of zombies. Gameplay is similar in many ways, as both have blocks supported with other units, where it differs is that the LM saurus are very durable while the VC troops are weak but easy to replenish, both armies lack long range shooting but can be devastating in short range, as far as magic is concerned however the Slaan mage priests (aka hipno toads) are hard to match but a combat vampire is one of the scariest guys in the game. In the end VC play like a horde army while LM tend to go for an elite hard hitting style.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:2.) How does each army play like? The 40K armies I play are BA, Nids, and GK. Which would I feel most comfortable with?

Well that's kinda hard to answer as the two sistems play suprisingly different. The fact i only play one of your armies doisen't help me in advice giving either.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:3.) Considering Vampire Counts just got a new codex, what are the chances Lizardmen will get a new codex sometime soon (If I remember right, their codex came out in 09)

Low, for this year anyway many books are far FAR older and are likely to get some attention first. Another thing to note is that the LM book is quite strong right now so is they redo WoC to ballance them we might be pushed forward for the same treatment after, still next year at the earlyest.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:4.) How are their Battalions like? Which one is a better deal? What should I buy to get started with each army?

Oh the LM battalion is great, true the cav are a bit weak this ed and i personally loathe the models for them but its still a pretty good deal since everything else is sure to make it into most lists.
Never bought the VC one so i can't help there.

Oh here's my LM tactica:

HoverBoy wrote:Lizardmen

Introduction:
The lizardmen army has many advantages, tough basic troops with fast support units and hard hitting monsters.
This is an army for those who like reliability and enjoy the coldblooded destruction of their foes.

Flavor:
The lizardmen race actually consist of several races who where all created by the enigmatic old ones, they where the first to be created and each had it's own purpose. Slaan where created first and acted as direct liasons for the old one's earthly affairs, the saurus where created purely for war with the goal of cleansing the world of unwanted races, skinks where made to be artisans who would run the newly established empire while the kroxigor where destined to be the builders upon who's backs the great cities would rise.

The lizardmen are capable to function in all three phases of the game, with the devastating magic of the Slaan, posionous volleys of the skinks, and ferocity of the saurus, the force can also be augmented by the addition of fierce jungle beasts.
Their models will appeal to any lizard lover with abundance of scales horns and teeth, as well as ferocious looking weapons and ornate armor based on mesoamerican gliphs.

Tactical Opportunities
The lizardmen are as said above good at most things, with an obvious lack of long range shooting.
The army is one of the most versatile and can be based on speed, streinght, magic or a ballanced approach.

Lords and Heroes
It's unknown what GW where thinking when writing the book but most named characters are overpriced by about 50-200 points, using them in any but the most themed list is ill advised.

Slaan Mage-priest: Considered by many the premiere leader for the army the slaan wields devastating magic and has access to the best magic deffence in the game.
There is a sentimet among players (mostly of other races) that overupgrading a slaan is cheesy. Notable is his unique ability (for an unnamed character) to be both the BSB and general).

Saurus Oldblood: The baddest saurus available this guy is a consumate fighter able to stand toe to toe with the nastiest of enemy characters and still stand a chance (altho slight in some cases). This is also where we get out first monster option with the bloodthirsty carnosaur, a beast that is scary to any monster foolish enough to face it.

Saurus Scar-Veteran: Less expirienced than the oldblood, this hero is a great warrior and has great potential for unit bolstering. He's also a BSB option.

Skink Priest: Limited in their lore choice these are seen as unworthy by many, but a skink priest can be usefull for carriyng additional arcane items and the lore of heavens is quitte good when you get used to it, also spamming the signature spell is quite possibly the nastiest debuff i have used. Here too we can have a monster and it comes with one of the oddest pieces of equipment in the game, the engine of the gods is great for its undispellable protective and offencive capabilities, altho considered by many to not be worth the points.

Skink Chief: This elite skink is quite cheap and can prove usefull as the leader of a small harrasment unit or be used to bolster a bigger more static unit. He could also ride either kind of stegadon, for even more monster fun, of note however is his ability to ride a terradon and the ability to actually join and lead a unit of them. Also a BSB option.

Core
Saurus warriors: The basic heavy infantry of the army, they are hard hitting and durable with a great statline for their cost.
There is a long running debate weither using spears with them is worth it or not.

Skinks: Also known as ranked or cohort skinks, this unit makes up what it lacks in durability with numbers and what it lacks in hitting power with kroxigor.
Some use small units of these for screening instead of skirmishers.

Skink skirmishers: Mobile harasment unit that is quite cheap, usually used for screening and flanking their speed will quickly let them get to using their rather short range.

Jungle swarm: This unit altho characterfull suffers from the horrid swarm rules as seen in the BRB.

Special
Chameleon Skinks: These guys are godsend (old one send?), they sneak up and take out any high T low armour targets the enemy is foolish enough not to guard. And if he guards them he's diverting forces from the main battle, either way a win, win.

Terradon Riders: The faster less shooty cousins of the chameleon skink, these guys are great for tying up enemy war machines or small missile units, or scaring the crap out of lone wizards.

Temple Guard: The dediacted entorauge for a slaan, this unit is considered too expencive to use without one, as they gain stubborn if he's present. A heavier, more damaging version of the saurus warrior they too are durable but a bit more hard-hitting.

Cold One Cavalry: Lizards riding lizards, what's not to like. Quite expencive they seem like your typical heavy cavalry, best used to flank the enemy in support of your more numerous units.

Kroxigor: For those who preffer raw damage without the skink meatshield the big bad lizards are available on their own. They have the same function as the cavalry but sacrifice some speed for more damage potential and weaker armour.

Stegadon: Big bad and full of wrath. This living battering ram is simmilar to a chariot except he hits harder and costs more points. Devastating on the charge a stegadon can keep on the damage simply by being a monster. The big bow is a bit of a letdown unless you get lucky at which point it's hillarious (well not for the enemy).

Rare
Ancient Stegadon: Older harder hitting, this version of the big beast also comes with a ranged weapon that makes you feel dirty the first time you use it on an unsuspecting enemy.

Sallamander: Also known as a walking mass frier, this thing is the latest word in crowd control. The ability to march 12" and the spew out a long range flame template is just down dirty. Use in packs for added effect.

Razordon: These are often overlooked for being less effective than a sallamander (can't march and shoot). But i know some people would be afraid to charge their more important units into one. Also the high S shooting is nice either way.

Items
Blade of Realities: Possibly devastating but the new BSB rules make it harder to succseed with.
Blade of Revered Tzunki: A stronger version of the obsidian blade, quite nice if you can spare the points.
Scimitar of the Sun Resplendent: A more expencive version of a BRB item, pass.
Stegadon War Spear: A bit expencive but the potential, rarely used tho as skink chiefs are rare themselves.
Staff of the Lost Sun: Now that's fun to mount on a terradon.
Pirhana Blade: This is fun to use on anything with multiple wounds.
Dagger of Sotek: not sure how many skinks will actually see combat for long enough to really use this.
Sword of the Hornet: A clone of a BRB item, most lizardmen characters lack the initiative to make full use of ASF.
Burning Blade of Chotec: A personal favorite. Really messes up any regenerator.

Hide of the Cold Ones: Pretty nice but with most our characters having good armour to begin with, ward granting options seem more usefull.
Sacred Stegadon Helm: In comparison to newer helms and LD boosters this seems very overpriced.
Shield of the Mirrored Pool: Magic missiles are the best way to clear up your skirmishing units – just sayin.
Maiming Shield: Extra attacks are nice, certainly get it if you have the point's.

The Horn of Krygor: Excuse me how many points!? No hanks.
Horned One: With the FAQ fix this has been the focal point of a few argument's, also not really worth it over a regular cold one as such a character would be with a unit and subject to stupidity anyway.
Divine Plaque of Protection: A big FU to all who wanna shoot you'r solo slaan.
War Drum of Xahutec: This is an odd one for it seems great for supporting your flanking units, but when you think about it it has to be with the fleeing flankers but not joined to them.
Blood Statuette of Spite: Human and elven characters really hate this one, can work well with toughness debuffs.
Charm of the Jaguar Warrior: A flying item, nice to have but uses power dice.
Cloak of Feathers: Cheap boost of speed that dosen't use PD. Yes please. Great for hopping priests around to annoy the enemy.
Carnosaur Pendant: This isn't rage, its' RAAAAGE. Great if you're trying to mass up attacks.
Curse Charm of Tepok: Nice and sneaky, a bit expencive for one use though.
Bane Head: Come at me bro, i dare ya. Works extra mean with the pirhana blade.
Dragonfly of Quicksilver: Neat to have if you need to fill up points.
Venom of the Firefly Frog: It's a steal, and it can give magical attacks that aren't attached to a weapon (it matters sometimes trust me).

Cupped Hands of The Old Ones: Reeeal expencive for one use, but miscasts are mean, and tossing your's on the enemy is even meaner.
Cube of Darkness: it should be called cube of my enemy rolled 10+ PD. Seriously awesome.
Rod of the Storm: One use thunderbolt for 25 pts. Lame.
Diadem of Power: Dice battery, it's ok if you have any PD left. Best used in slaan free lists.
Itxi Grubs: A nice backup if you fear failing to cast a spell. Bit expencive for one use though.
Plaque of Tepok: It's neat and can make for a nice upgrade, good price too.

Aura of Quetzl: Neat, but the BRB gives the same attached to an armour, for cheaper.
Glyph Necklase: Another BRB item clone, a good one to pair up on too.
Amulet of Itzl: Twice the points but three times the effectivnes of a BRB item. It's ok if you plan to run around solo.

Totem of Prophercy: The BRB gives terror for the same price, and i say pass on both.
Plaque of Dominion: Stupidity is no issue with a BSB nearby, also short range. Pass.
Huanchis's Blessed Totem: A great way to ensure your Deathstar hits home.
Jaguar Standart: Use this one on something scary, it will guarantee that finishing blow.
Skavenpelt Banner: Excuse me so i'm supposed to have a skink BSB and not give him magic armor? No thanks.

Tactics
Making full use of what you'r army has to offer, is easy with the lizardmen as the unit's use is so obvious at first glance.
The tactics available are varied and numerous, but will allways revolve on having a main battle line supported by flankers/magic.

Conclusion
So yea reliable troops, good models and an overall competitive army list make for a good enjoyable expirience.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
My fingers hurt.

**ElectricPaladin**

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:First off, hello everyone! Long time lurker here, I finally made an account to hopefully get some questions answered.

I've been playing 40k for over a year and now WHF is starting to interest me. I'm wondering whether Vampire Counts or Lizardmen would be the best choice for me. Lizardmen interest me because I've always loved dinosaurs, and Vampire Counts because BA are my main army I play in 40k and they have a similar theme going, plus I love their models. More specific questions I have:

You're in almost exactly the same boat I am, except that I play Blood Angels and Tau, I started WHFB when I had been playing 40k for a little over six months, and it was never even a choice for me - it was Lizardmen all the way. Anyway, I'm still not very experienced, so I'll go ahead and skip the questions I have no way of answering.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
1.) What are the pros and cons of each, both game play wise and cost wise? (I have a basic understanding of WHF after playing a couple demo games with a friend at GW, so feel free to get into specifics)

One pro to Lizardmen is that we have great magic. I don't know about you, but one of the things that drew me to Fantasy was the magic phase. Do you want one of the highest level wizards in the game who can use any Lore, has easy access to the Loremaster special rule, can be taken with a block of incredibly hard warriors, and has a special rule that lets him hide in the second rank and contribute to battle via Magic Missile spells? Or, alternately, he can hang back and still contribute because he can channel magic missile spells through the army's lesser wizards?

Yeah, I like Slann, too

.

Another plus for the Lizardmen, in my opinion, is their aesthetic. It's a matter of taste, but I prefer Lizardmen to Vampire Counts, hands down. Our cavalry rides utahraptors. Our artillery is a spike-shooting ankylosaurus. Our other artillery is a fire-breathing dimetrodon. Our magical battle engine is a freaking shrine on the back of a freaking triceratops. How awesome is that? Some of the models are a bit old, sure - personally, I love our cavalry, own way too many, and can only hope they become great again in the next edition - but none of them are bad.

Another thing you should consider is that Lizardmen and Blood Angels actually have more in common in the fluff than Blood Angels and Vampire Counts. Like the Blood Angels, the Lizardmen are basically on the side of Order, fighting against chaos. Also like the Blood Angels, the Lizardmen are incredibly arrogant, assured that they - and only they - have a direct connection to The Plan. While it's easy to see how the Lizardmen can end up fighting other "good guys" over issues of pride - like the Blood Angels - it's fun to play an army that is nonetheless part of saving the world.

And it's fun to watch elf players sadly admit that, yes, the Old Ones loved us more

.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
2.) How does each army play like? The 40K armies I play are BA, Nids, and GK. Which would I feel most comfortable with?

Like Blood Angels, Lizardmen like to advance and like to be in melee. Like Blood Angels, you can use the Lizardmen to build a group of hard, strong elites (of course, you can also field a swarm of skinks, so...). Also, Lizardmen generally rather receive the charge than deliver it (except for our cavalry - I think cavalry always likes to charge). Other than that, WHFB and 40k play differently enough that there's not a lot to say.

Hope that's helpful.

Play Lizardmen.