Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For Barrage weapons you check to see if a unit is in cover from the center of the Blast Marker. (check the barrage rules if you don't believe me, cause a lot of people misinterpret this as meaning only area terrain and KFF style things give you cover from barrage weapons, which is not correct. Anything that normally gives you cover still works, you just check from the center of the blast not the firing model.)

Anyway, when a barrage weapon hits a vehicle where do you check from to see if nearby units will get a cover save, from the top of the vehicle or from the ground level beneath where the hole in the blast marker is?

Example 1: Say there's a rhino with 5 scouts hiding behind it. If the rhino takes a hit from an indirectly firing Manticore (and the hole is centered on the rhino) you check for cover from the center of the Marker. In this case it doesn't matter since if you check from the top of the tank, the scouts are completely out of LoS (so get cover) and if you check from the ground level you'll only be able to see their ankles (so they also get cover).

Example 2: Say there's a DE raider with 5 Warriors standing right next to it. If the raider takes the same hit and you check from the top of the vehicle the Warriors should get cover because the Raider will be at least partially blocking LoS from the center of the Marker, but if you check from the ground level then they won't.

From a fluff perspective I'd say to check from the top since barrage weapons rain down in an arc and hit the top of things (as represented by them always hitting the side armor of vehicles and always hitting the top level of ruins), but the 2D nature of a lot of the rules makes me think it might be otherwise (like if you shoot a blast weapon at a stormraven/vendetta/razorwing you can hit guys on the ground even though they're 4-5 inches away (in 3 dimensions)

From ground level. This isn't a "3d" game in that sense, there is no difference between a unit at a top of a hill or bottom of hill, the only difference is when units are in ruins and are on the 2nd or 3rd (or 4th, etc) floors, then you target the floor and determine everything that way.

But do vehicles count as giving cover if the centre is on them?

Joey wrote:But do vehicles count as giving cover if the centre is on them?

Not if it directly hit the vehicle. Worst case scenario you'd roll off on it because the situation could also arise if you landed the shot ON the wall a unit was hiding behind. But generally I'd rule that if the blast hit the target vehicle then it's "hull" is essentially where the shrapnel is coming from and unless there is terrain between that target vehicle and the unit getting hit by the blast, I would say no cover. Others may disagree.

Kevin949 wrote:

Joey wrote:But do vehicles count as giving cover if the centre is on them?

Not if it directly hit the vehicle. Worst case scenario you'd roll off on it because the situation could also arise if you landed the shot ON the wall a unit was hiding behind. But generally I'd rule that if the blast hit the target vehicle then it's "hull" is essentially where the shrapnel is coming from and unless there is terrain between that target vehicle and the unit getting hit by the blast, I would say no cover. Others may disagree.

That is not correct.

Actually if it directly hit the vehicle, you work out True Line of Sight from the center of the marker as normal because the center of the marker is where the shot is coming from.

That means if the Vehicle actually blocks LoS, then the vehicle actually blocks LoS.

DeathReaper wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Joey wrote:But do vehicles count as giving cover if the centre is on them?

Not if it directly hit the vehicle. Worst case scenario you'd roll off on it because the situation could also arise if you landed the shot ON the wall a unit was hiding behind. But generally I'd rule that if the blast hit the target vehicle then it's "hull" is essentially where the shrapnel is coming from and unless there is terrain between that target vehicle and the unit getting hit by the blast, I would say no cover. Others may disagree.

That is not correct.

Actually if it directly hit the vehicle, you work out True Line of Sight from the center of the marker as normal because the center of the marker is where the shot is coming from.

That means if the Vehicle actually blocks LoS, then the vehicle actually blocks LoS.

Question: Isn't there a rule stating that if units are within a certain distance of the same terrain feature then neither benefits from the cover (unless it is AREA terrain, which is different I think)?
If that is case, then wouldn't the unit being hit still not get a cover save since, I believe, the blast marker is 2.5" to the edge from the center which means you only have .5" (I think?) leeway of where you do get cover when drawing TLOS from the center of the marker to the unit?

DeathReaper wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Joey wrote:But do vehicles count as giving cover if the centre is on them?

Not if it directly hit the vehicle. Worst case scenario you'd roll off on it because the situation could also arise if you landed the shot ON the wall a unit was hiding behind. But generally I'd rule that if the blast hit the target vehicle then it's "hull" is essentially where the shrapnel is coming from and unless there is terrain between that target vehicle and the unit getting hit by the blast, I would say no cover. Others may disagree.

That is not correct.

Actually if it directly hit the vehicle, you work out True Line of Sight from the center of the marker as normal because the center of the marker is where the shot is coming from.

That means if the Vehicle actually blocks LoS, then the vehicle actually blocks LoS.

That would mean vehicles always block LOS since they're bigger than the infantry models around them?

Kevin949 wrote:Question: Isn't there a rule stating that if units are within a certain distance of the same terrain feature then neither benefits from the cover (unless it is AREA terrain, which is different I think)?

If that is case, then wouldn't the unit being hit still not get a cover save since, I believe, the blast marker is 2.5" to the edge from the center which means you only have .5" (I think?) leeway of where you do get cover when drawing TLOS from the center of the marker to the unit.

That is not the case.

There is a rule that if a unit shoots through 2 inches of area terrain they do not grant a cover save to the enemy just from firing through area terrain. (non area terrain uses TLoS as normal)

Joey wrote:That would mean vehicles always block LOS since they're bigger than the infantry models around them?

Yes. as they most likely will actually block LoS from where the center of the marker is.

If the center of the marker is on the edge then the vehicle probably wont block LoS. Most cases though it will,

Actually the premise thaty this is a 2D game is false. It is a 3D game, as referenced repeatedly

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually the premise thaty this is a 2D game is false. It is a 3D game, as referenced repeatedly

40k is an odd mix of 2d and 3d. Measuring distances for shooting is all done in 3d, but distances for movement, coherency, embark/disembark areas, 1" rule, etc., are on a plane. Blast markers and templates are also positioned on a plane.

And that's not even getting into the whole, "skimmers can fly over troops, forests, buildings, but also block LOS" area.

No, movement etc are NOT on a plane. NOthing tells you this. You are told to measure from the starting position to the end position - nothing restricts that to the same Z plane.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, movement etc are NOT on a plane. NOthing tells you this. You are told to measure from the starting position to the end position - nothing restricts that to the same Z plane.

Well movement aside (that's a different fight I've had numerous times lol), how would you address the problem at hand?

Another situation: Rhino with a Land speeder next to it, Rhino takes a hit from an indirectly firing Manticore. If you check from the top of the tank, no cover for the Land Speeder. If you check from the ground level under the hole in the marker, cover for the Land Speeder.

Blasts tell you to take a top down view, so no cover.

Blasts are one of the exceptions.