Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So i haven't played in a while and i'm also still very new to the game but i was just wondering, how do you guys use your regular space marines? My army splits 3 tac squads into 6 combat squads. 3 of the combat squads stay very far back with heavy weapons so that means 12 marines are just chilling in the back not really doing anything. The other 3 combat squads move around the field in rhinos, sergeants having powerfists and the others having either a meltagun or a flamer. This leaves 9 boltgun marines not really doing anything. As soon as these squads leave the rhino i want to get them into assault mode asap so therefore they probably wont be firing their boltguns ever and anyways, boltguns kind of suck. Am i utilizing them correctly? I guess they are good at soaking up wounds to leave the PF sergeant alive and the heavy weapon marines do hold objectives but other than that?

You're assaulting with Tactical Marines? You really are new. Boltguns aren't that good at killing Marines--that 3+ armor save eats up quite a bit of firepower. Where boltguns really shine is killing lightly-armored guys like Orks and Guardsmen. As for assaulting, have you considered using Terminators instead?

Yeah, tactical marines really are not spectacular at assault. They're really not spectacular at anything. They're a jack of all trades, master of none unit. Although 5 marines, even with a power fist sergeant, is easily walked over.

That being said, considering how you're using your tact marines, I'd suggest swapping the rhinos out for razorbacks. They don't need the full 10 man carry capacity, and the razorback will add a heavy weapon that can be fired on the move.Only real reason not to grab razorbacks over rhinos if you plan on combat-squading is points constrictions.

That aside, your basic marines are for ablative wounds and light-infantry killing and really not much else. The special/heavy weapons will do the heavy lifting.

They lay down wounds on non-meched troops. BS4 and S4 means you can usually force 3-4 armour/cover saves. That's pretty much it, but it's not bad.

People don't assume that their basic troops are battlefield dominators... do they

boltguns are a fine basic small arm, on an accurate platform. Shoot things with it is how you use it!

kNyne83 wrote:This leaves 9 boltgun marines not really doing anything.

So, this is a very common problem for new players in general, no matter what army they play. It's easy to see your basic troops choices as nothing but its upgrades. It just so happens that for marines, though, ignoring your small arms hits you a little harder than other armies, because you have to pay so much more for them.

What I'd do is to start fielding those 10-man squads as 10-man squads, rather than just automatically splitting them apart every time. Give all of the upgrades a single job (multimelta+melta+combimelta(and/or fist) in such a way where the squad has two distinct roles, like being good against vehicles or monstrous creatures on the one hand (with the upgrades), and being good against infantry on the other (with the bolters and power armor). Then, every turn ask yourself if it's going to be better to shoot 8 bolters at something, or shoot the upgrades at something. When you make it a binary choice like this, when to use bolters will become more obvious to you as you use them more.

When you look at a space marine with a meltagun and only see the meltagun, you're not seeing the space marine comprehensively. It's all of those little things that make a space marine good, and if you're not making good use of all the little things, then you're not making the most of something which is, by-model, rather expensive. The same goes for squads. If you're spending 150 points on a squad that you see as nothing more than a BS4 missile launcher and a flamer, you're missing everything else - all those pieces that are going to need to work together to make your tac squads work.

Mastering the use of small arms is probably the most difficult piece of player skill in 40k (I myself haven't even bothered, and I've been playing for years), but the quality of an army lead by a person who does and the quality of one who doesn't has on more than one occasion surprised me.

Lokas wrote:Yeah, tactical marines really are not spectacular at assault. They're really not spectacular at anything. They're a jack of all trades, master of none unit. Although 5 marines, even with a power fist sergeant, is easily walked over.

That being said, considering how you're using your tact marines, I'd suggest swapping the rhinos out for razorbacks. They don't need the full 10 man carry capacity, and the razorback will add a heavy weapon that can be fired on the move.Only real reason not to grab razorbacks over rhinos if you plan on combat-squading is points constrictions.

That aside, your basic marines are for ablative wounds and light-infantry killing and really not much else. The special/heavy weapons will do the heavy lifting.

i agree with you, besides the idea that they are "easly walked over", +3 armor can soak up nice amouts of firepower if ure lucky with the dice.

you should play an army that suites your aggressive playstyle, BA would be a better match than vanilla

Smitty0305 wrote:you should play an army that suites your aggressive playstyle, BA would be a better match than vanilla

BA are better than vanilla marines for pretty much everything tbf.

Teln wrote:You're assaulting with Tactical Marines?

It can be very reasonable tactic. Orks lose furious charge, BA lose furious charge, Tau suck at cc, it stops IG shooting you, even against 'nids it can work well, et cetera.

No one has mentioned this, but most marines are equipped with bolt pistols. If you are charging into cc, don't forget to soften them up first!

So i've changed my strategy around a little, i got rid of some useless stuff in my 1850 point list and swapped the rhinos with razorbacks with TL heavy flamers. This way, anyone that i assault will be softened up by the HF, the pistols and the flamer, then the powerfist sergeant comes in and finishes the job.

Ailaros wrote:

kNyne83 wrote:This leaves 9 boltgun marines not really doing anything.

So, this is a very common problem for new players in general, no matter what army they play. It's easy to see your basic troops choices as nothing but its upgrades. It just so happens that for marines, though, ignoring your small arms hits you a little harder than other armies, because you have to pay so much more for them.

What I'd do is to start fielding those 10-man squads as 10-man squads, rather than just automatically splitting them apart every time. Give all of the upgrades a single job (multimelta+melta+combimelta(and/or fist) in such a way where the squad has two distinct roles, like being good against vehicles or monstrous creatures on the one hand (with the upgrades), and being good against infantry on the other (with the bolters and power armor). Then, every turn ask yourself if it's going to be better to shoot 8 bolters at something, or shoot the upgrades at something. When you make it a binary choice like this, when to use bolters will become more obvious to you as you use them more.

When you look at a space marine with a meltagun and only see the meltagun, you're not seeing the space marine comprehensively. It's all of those little things that make a space marine good, and if you're not making good use of all the little things, then you're not making the most of something which is, by-model, rather expensive. The same goes for squads. If you're spending 150 points on a squad that you see as nothing more than a BS4 missile launcher and a flamer, you're missing everything else - all those pieces that are going to need to work together to make your tac squads work.

Mastering the use of small arms is probably the most difficult piece of player skill in 40k (I myself haven't even bothered, and I've been playing for years), but the quality of an army lead by a person who does and the quality of one who doesn't has on more than one occasion surprised me.

This is one of the most useful posts I've read. Exalt for you!

kNyne83 wrote:So i've changed my strategy around a little, i got rid of some useless stuff in my 1850 point list and swapped the rhinos with razorbacks with TL heavy flamers. This way, anyone that i assault will be softened up by the HF, the pistols and the flamer, then the powerfist sergeant comes in and finishes the job.

You wouldn't be trying to assault out of that Razorback, would you?

kustom wrote:

kNyne83 wrote:So i've changed my strategy around a little, i got rid of some useless stuff in my 1850 point list and swapped the rhinos with razorbacks with TL heavy flamers. This way, anyone that i assault will be softened up by the HF, the pistols and the flamer, then the powerfist sergeant comes in and finishes the job.

You wouldn't be trying to assault out of that Razorback, would you?

idk is that against the rules? it's been a while so idk, if not that turn then i would get out about 13 inches in front of the enemy and move in and assault within the next couple turns. I want the razorback close enough to flame the group im assaulting

Yes, as a Razorback is not open-topped nor has a special rule allowing you to assault from it when the vehicle moves.

Well yeah in that case i may just move, disembark, shoot the HF, shoot the regular flamer and then some rapid fire bolters at them and by then a typical infantry should be running away or dead enough to where they wouldnt assault me next turn

Yeah, in theory, but not really in practice. Against most infantry, you're going to get really close to them (which itself is far from guaranteed), and then you're going to cause just enough casualties to kill yourself out of assault range. The squad you blasted will pass morale either through being fearless (tyranid, ork, some eldar, etc.) or will have some source of rerolls (guard, tau, witch hunters). The next turn, you get shot off the board at close range.

In order for flamers to work, and work well, you need to be able to use them at targets 1" away, and even then your opponent can't be smart and spread out. Against small targets of opportunity? Sure. Against anything else, you're cruisin' for a bruisin'.

Yeah, I get what you mean, what do you suggest instead? My army has a lot of support from sniper scouts, 8 ML's from 2 devastator squads and 4 rifle dreads so i wanted to have some close combat stuff too but not terminators, too expensive.

The point of my Dark Angels' army's Troops choices is the plasma cannons and lascannons in the Tactical Squads. I tend to split the Tactical Squads into Combat Squads, have the heavy weapons hang out somewhere with a good view, and use the other Combat Squad to run around intercepting bullets/assaults/attention that would otherwise be directed at the big guns.

There are some targets that are very vulnerable to bolter fire -- low STR attacks at a high volume. In this case, compare the bolter to a LC, which is the opposite.
Targets that are vulnerable to this kind of fire are targets with a low toughness and good invulnerable save. In these cases the bolter fire actually can deliver more wounds than the heavy/special weapon.
Examples are wraiths, the doom, and to a lesser degree TH/SS termies (the 2+ save helps to mitigate this)

Bolters can also be used on AV 10, including the rear of most tanks. They also can be used against all kinds of infantry.
Don't ever expect that much from your bolters, but every now and then they will really do well for you.

kNyne83 wrote:Yeah, I get what you mean, what do you suggest instead? My army has a lot of support from sniper scouts, 8 ML's from 2 devastator squads and 4 rifle dreads so i wanted to have some close combat stuff too but not terminators, too expensive.

Sure. I'd say have the upgrades be either anti-termies-MCs-light vehicle (missile launcher or plasma cannon, plasma gun, plasma pistol or combi-plasma), or make them anti-vehicle (multimelta, meltagun, combi-melta). I'd also probably keep the fist on the sarges, but you could go either way.

In this case, you assess the situation and either get into proper range to blast stuff with melta or plasma (depending on what you took), or to get into the proper range to blast things with bolters. I wouldn't go seeking close combat as fast as you can manage it, as tac squads are a bit better at shooting than close combat, but when targets of opportunity in close combat come by, don't be afraid to take them in an assault, and, of course, you always have the fist to sucker punch them a bit before tactically withdrawing.

labmouse42 wrote:There are some targets that are very vulnerable to bolter fire -- low STR attacks at a high volume. In this case, compare the bolter to a LC, which is the opposite.

This too.

It's easy to underestimate your small arm, which is more unfortunate for marines, as they actually have a rather good one. If you have some THSS termies barreling towards you and have a squad with the missile launcher, plasma gun and combi-plasma, those upgrades are causing .85 wounds that stick while the other 7 dudes with boltguns are causing .78. To put it another way, you're doing almost as much damage with bolters as you are with plasma, and that's against termies.

Likewise, if you're fighting MCs, especially lower toughness ones like demon princes, you can force armor saves with just your small arm, and it's still possible to kill open-topped AV10 vehicles with just your bolters.

It's easy to look at a squad and ask what you need to do to make its upgrades do the most damage, but really you should be asking what you need to do for the squad as a whole to do the most damage. Underestimating the killing power of your small arm can skew the results of this calculation.