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Alright everyone. In the 40k Background sections you will find many threads such as "Imperial Guard Purpose?" and "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" in which the Imperial Guard take lots of flak from lots of quarters.

I contest that the Imperial Guard should be venerated as much as, if not more than, the Space Marines, and here I will post my reasons.

I'm sure that everyone is familiar with the 3rd Lord of the Rings movie, especially the Battle of the Pellenor Fields outside of Minas Tirith. I will use this as an example of the inspirational heroism found within the normal humans in the 41st Millenium.

From the heroic stand of the soldiers of Gondor, fighting to the last in their city to hold off the forces of evil, and the heroism of Theoden King's "Bring It Down" orders against the monstrous Oliphaunts, to the heroic stand of normal-human Eowyn against the Witch King himself, normal humans defeat the huge and seemingly indomitable forces of evil, simply through strength of arm and courage of heart.

These events are analogous to the shock-troops of Cadia fighting to the last on their planet to hold off the forces of evil, to the Eastern Fringe regiments issuing the "Bring it Down" order against monstrous Tyranids, to the heroic stand of Ollanius Pius against Horus himself. Normal humans making superhuman feats not by their genetic augmentation but by the strength in their souls.

If Superman, Spiderman, the Flash, and the Hulk clones took the place of the heroes at Pellanor Fields (or at Cadia) I think both stories would be less powerful. As it stands though, at least at Cadia, it wasn't super-strong men immune to their bullets in armor as thick as tanks, but it was the regular men, armed with a little more than a modern .50 cal and armored with slightly-more-efficient ballistic armor, that held the line.

This is why the Imperial Guard are worthy of veneration. Not for their 'lolawesumz' but for their courage.

They hold the line. They may die, but they die doing as the Emperor asks of them. They die standing.

You do realise they're not real....

Fictional characters don't mind if they're made fun of in real life.

Private_Joker wrote:You do realise they're not real....

Fictional characters don't mind if they're made fun of in real life.

No, but the people who respect them do. I really dislike it when people bad-mouth the Imperial Guard.

But in the big pond of the 40K universe a lowly guardsmen is considerably insignificant. Only through sheer firepower do they eventually overcome things.

The only way I can identify with them is that they are the little guy, and everyone else takes an enourmous dump over the top of them. For what? Defending a crumbling, corrupt empire so that those on the top can sleep easily.They are grunts, faceless masses of meat for the grinder.

It makes for great story telling but not worth me getting angry over trolls. I remind myself that people who make fun of anothers army are doing it in good spirit. If not then they are trying to crawl under your skin and you shouldn't associate with them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Private_Joker wrote:You do realise they're not real....

Fictional characters don't mind if they're made fun of in real life.

No, but the people who respect them do. I really dislike it when people bad-mouth the Imperial Guard.

Yes, but "taking sides" for one fictional group in a broader fictional universe doesn't make sense either, precisely because they all together make the Universe.

Also, there are ALOT of other fiction and settings and games out there, where "regular" soldiers are the lauded heroes and main protagonists all round. In 40K, they are sometimes used to highlight the superiority of others. Different "settings" different roles and emphases.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Private_Joker wrote:You do realise they're not real....

Fictional characters don't mind if they're made fun of in real life.

No, but the people who respect them do. I really dislike it when people bad-mouth the Imperial Guard.

Yes, but "taking sides" for one fictional group in a broader fictional universe doesn't make sense either, precisely because they all together make the Universe.

I think that I'm not simply speaking for the Imperial Guard, necessarily. I'm speaking for the message I'm getting from people who dislike them. That message is:
"Pshh, humans? What can they do? I'd rather have ginormous, muscle-bound, chemically sterile superheroes instead. Not these wimpy feths."
Which, as a human, really rubs me the wrong way.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I think that I'm not simply speaking for the Imperial Guard, necessarily. I'm speaking for the message I'm getting from people who dislike them. That message is:
"Pshh, humans? What can they do? I'd rather have ginormous, muscle-bound, chemically sterile superheroes instead. Not these wimpy feths."
Which, as a human, really rubs me the wrong way.

Well, there simply are not that many games out there were you can play "ginormous, muscle-bound, chemically sterile superheroes", so 40K attracts people who find them interesting. On the other hand, there's lots of other products like Flames of War or now Dust Warfare, that center far more around "regular humans", so this might be where you would perhaps find more people that share your preferences.

Well which would you rather command, 10 space marines or 100 guardsmen? You will find people will always choose the genetically engineered super humans with more firepower than a fighter jet over Joe Bloggs with a poorly fit uniform and a lasgun.

Private_Joker wrote:Well which would you rather command, 10 space marines or 100 guardsmen?

Depends on the job. 10 Marines would do no good as Baneblade pilots, for example, as they wouldn't fit in the tank.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I think that I'm not simply speaking for the Imperial Guard, necessarily. I'm speaking for the message I'm getting from people who dislike them. That message is:
"Pshh, humans? What can they do? I'd rather have ginormous, muscle-bound, chemically sterile superheroes instead. Not these wimpy feths."
Which, as a human, really rubs me the wrong way.

Well, there simply are not that many games out there were you can play "ginormous, muscle-bound, chemically sterile superheroes", so 40K attracts people who find them interesting. On the other hand, there's lots of other products like Flames of War or now Dust Warfare, that center far more around "regular humans", so this might be where you would perhaps find more people that share your preferences.

I play those games too. But regular humans vs. regular humans is heroic, but it's even more heroic when you can pit a regular human against a super hero.

If there's a game where I can kill superman armed only with an assault-rifle, a flak-jacket, and faith in my cause, tell me about it.

Private_Joker wrote:Well which would you rather command, 10 space marines or 100 guardsmen? You will find people will always choose the genetically engineered super humans with more firepower than a fighter jet over Joe Bloggs with a poorly fit uniform and a lasgun.

That's exactly the kind of characterization I hate. The Imperial Guard may be Joe Bloggs with a poorly fit uniform and a lasgun, and that's why it's even more heroic when he holds the line against a squad of bloodletters. Superman / the Hulk holding the line would just look silly, and make for a good action flick, but there's little substance behind it.

It's the same reason some people prefer batman to superman (though I don't like either one honestly).

I don't quite understand what your issue is.

You enjoy Imperial Guard because it allows you to take the side of the underdog facing an immense uphill battle (narratively) against more superhuman factions, but you also hate it because it (narratively) presents the Imperial Guard as underdogs (comparatively to the more superhuman factions)?

And yes, 40K is an "action flick" game trading by and large on the "rule of cool"; with little "substance" behind it. Looking for much "substance" in 40 - IG or otherwise - is bound to disappoint.

Zweischneid wrote:I don't quite understand what your issue is.

You enjoy Imperial Guard because it allows you to take the side of the underdog facing an immense uphill battle (narratively) against more superhuman factions, but you also hate it because it (narratively) presents the Imperial Guard as underdogs (comparatively to the more superhuman factions)?

Actually, I hate it because people bash the Imperial Guard. They go so far as to ask even why it exists? Or they'll say things like "hubhubhub, come now, the entirety of the imperial guard are dudes with flashlights. How could they possibly overcome the astartes?"

People are taking the underdog fluff and turning into "these-guys-must-suck" fluff, if that makes any sense.

I feel like if a real-life Imperial Guard general walked into Dakka and suggested that someone send in *HIS* boys, he'd be laughed out of the room in a tide of space-marine minis.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:And yes, 40K is an "action flick" game with little substance behind it. Looking for much "substance" in 40K, IG or otherwise, is bound to disappoint.

This point I intensely disagree with. As a philosophy major, there is much substance in 40k. Here's a food for thought list:

1) Is sacrificing billions to save trillions a good thing?
2) Do the ends justify the means always (related to above)?
3) Is the "better-safe-than-sorry" attitude towards Xenos by humans justified?
4) Are the transhumanist technophiles right or wrong in their application of technology? (This is difficult especially because of the diverse schools of thought).
5) Do humans make their own way in the world, or is there some supernatural power doing everything for them and just making their actions seem necessary, or both?
6) What is the strength of man compared to the other races? Why is Man the rightful owner of the galaxy, and how do they prove this?

etc.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:I don't quite understand what your issue is.

You enjoy Imperial Guard because it allows you to take the side of the underdog facing an immense uphill battle (narratively) against more superhuman factions, but you also hate it because it (narratively) presents the Imperial Guard as underdogs (comparatively to the more superhuman factions)?

Actually, I hate it because people bash the Imperial Guard. They go so far as to ask even why it exists? Or they'll say things like "hubhubhub, come now, the entirety of the imperial guard are dudes with flashlights. How could they possibly overcome the astartes?"

People are taking the underdog fluff and turning into "these-guys-must-suck" fluff, if that makes any sense.

I feel like if a real-life Imperial Guard general walked into Dakka and suggested that someone send in *HIS* boys, he'd be laughed out of the room in a tide of space-marine minis.

People also bash Space Marines with various slurs (Smurfs anyone? or Dark Angel "dress-Marines"). They bash Eldar as Elfs in Space and sissies. Others bash Necorns as Tomb Kings in Space. Others. You yourself just bashed Marines as chemically sterile. A good mocking is part of it, simply because taking it overtly serious isn't what 40K is.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:I don't quite understand what your issue is.

You enjoy Imperial Guard because it allows you to take the side of the underdog facing an immense uphill battle (narratively) against more superhuman factions, but you also hate it because it (narratively) presents the Imperial Guard as underdogs (comparatively to the more superhuman factions)?

Actually, I hate it because people bash the Imperial Guard. They go so far as to ask even why it exists? Or they'll say things like "hubhubhub, come now, the entirety of the imperial guard are dudes with flashlights. How could they possibly overcome the astartes?"

People are taking the underdog fluff and turning into "these-guys-must-suck" fluff, if that makes any sense.

I feel like if a real-life Imperial Guard general walked into Dakka and suggested that someone send in *HIS* boys, he'd be laughed out of the room in a tide of space-marine minis.

People also bash Space Marines with various slurs (Smurfs anyone? or Dark Angel "dress-Marines"). They bash Eldar as Elfs in Space and sissies. Others bash Necorns as Tomb Kings in Space. Others. You yourself just bashed Marines as chemically sterile. A good mocking is part of it, simply because taking it overtly serious isn't what 40K is.

It's true. But I have seen threads standing up for Space Marines, including one that is so audacious as to suggest that [insert space marine chapter here] are the *only* good guys. I have not seen that thread for the Imperial Guard... really I haven't seen any good threads about the Imperial Guard, that are truly positive.

So here one is.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:And yes, 40K is an "action flick" game with little substance behind it. Looking for much "substance" in 40K, IG or otherwise, is bound to disappoint.

This point I intensely disagree with. As a philosophy major, there is much substance in 40k. Here's a food for thought list:

1) Is sacrificing billions to save trillions a good thing?
2) Do the ends justify the means always (related to above)?
3) Is the "better-safe-than-sorry" attitude towards Xenos by humans justified?
4) Are the transhumanist technophiles right or wrong in their application of technology? (This is difficult especially because of the diverse schools of thought).
5) Do humans make their own way in the world, or is there some supernatural power doing everything for them and just making their actions seem necessary, or both?
6) What is the strength of man compared to the other races? Why is Man the rightful owner of the galaxy, and how do they prove this?

etc.

40K doesn't seriously address these questions. A philosophy major might ask himself these questions inspired by some of the more ludicrious 40K stuff, but they are only in there for sheer awsomeness or as by-product of 40Ks looting of other fictional settings and stereotypes.

I really like the Imperial guard fluf wise and game wise, and I think that on individual planets in 40k they could be venerated more than Space Marines, I imagine Vostroya would be like this and possibly Cadia as they have to fight Chaos Space Marines, but I think overall it's impossible for Imperial guard to be venerated more than Genetically altered super warriors when it comes to the Imperium.

Just like in Marvel Captain America is far more venerated than ye old WW2 soldier (possibly excluding Nick Fury).

Real world wise I think the amount of people who like guard for the fluff of being the joe bloggs given a gun and an ill fitting uniform is pretty significant.

Zweischneid wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zweischneid wrote:And yes, 40K is an "action flick" game with little substance behind it. Looking for much "substance" in 40K, IG or otherwise, is bound to disappoint.

This point I intensely disagree with. As a philosophy major, there is much substance in 40k. Here's a food for thought list:

1) Is sacrificing billions to save trillions a good thing?
2) Do the ends justify the means always (related to above)?
3) Is the "better-safe-than-sorry" attitude towards Xenos by humans justified?
4) Are the transhumanist technophiles right or wrong in their application of technology? (This is difficult especially because of the diverse schools of thought).
5) Do humans make their own way in the world, or is there some supernatural power doing everything for them and just making their actions seem necessary, or both?
6) What is the strength of man compared to the other races? Why is Man the rightful owner of the galaxy, and how do they prove this?

etc.

40K doesn't seriously address these questions. A philosophy major might ask himself these questions inspired by some of the more ludicrious 40K stuff, but they are only in there for sheer awsomeness or as by-product of 40Ks looting of other fictional settings and stereotypes.

I think 40k does. Perhaps they are a by-product, but not having been exposed to those "other settings" I can only reach the rather eccentric answers to those questions provided by 40k by engaging in 40k.

And I contest that it doesn't seriously address those. Have you read the FFG books? The Logicians heretical cult is characterized, for example, as something that a "normal" human would be ok with (rather than trying to exterminate) because it merely preaches that scientific progress is awesumz. But in 40k (and only 40k, as far as I know) scientific progress is literally one of the worst crimes imaginable. I like to explore this question more.

1) Are they right in light of what has happened?
2) Is it possible that human nature can be so badly twisted?
3) Why is this necessary? (related to 1).

I suspect this topic is going downhill sooner or later, but that's something else.

Anyway, I think that part of the bashing and mocking other armies (within boundries ofcourse) is what keeps this hobby funny. I often refer to my army as "a hundred screaming dudes", because that is what it is. (Actually there are 114 screaming dudes, but that aside.)
It's what defines the regular players from the WAAC gamers. Try making a joke about his army (such as trying to bribe his Jokaero's with a banana) and immediately he will take it serious.
I may complain about their cardboard armour, how they want to flee as soon as they get the chance or their ballistic skill. Does it mean I dislike my army? No, not at all. I put quite some time and effort into them and that's not going to waste any time soon.

TLDR mode: It's your army and your army only. Who cares what the others say or think about it. Sure, have them mock your metal boxes (chimera's) or your flashlights (lasguns), it makes it all the more heroic if you win.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually, I hate it because people bash the Imperial Guard. They go so far as to ask even why it exists? Or they'll say things like "hubhubhub, come now, the entirety of the imperial guard are dudes with flashlights. How could they possibly overcome the astartes?"

People are taking the underdog fluff and turning into "these-guys-must-suck" fluff, if that makes any sense.

I think some of what you imply here would give you a good guide to why people enjoy Space Marines (or other uber-elite like lethal, immortal Eldar). People may not like "the guys that suck", just like you evidently don't. They like to be "the guys that are awesome".

You kinda want to have the cake and eat it too. Be both the "underdog" / "non-Elite" that fights the uphill battle against all odds, but also be "awesome" and portrayed with proper veneration. Doesnt go together that well really. Maybe you should consider playing Space Marines. They are portrayed (mocking aside) with the proper veneration and awesomness. And they also always fight against all odds anyhow in the fluff.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Alright everyone. In the 40k Background sections you will find many threads such as "Imperial Guard Purpose?" and "Imperial Guard vs Space Marines" in which the Imperial Guard take lots of flak from lots of quarters.

I contest that the Imperial Guard should be venerated as much as, if not more than, the Space Marines, and here I will post my reasons.

Threads like "imperial guard purpose" aren't good examples as those didn't answer the subject but go off to another anti-marine rant.
Questionable set ups like "IG vs SM" aren't worth the time.
So maybe a few examples of IG getting underserved flak ( and I mean THE Guard , not the posters! ) would help to see where youre point is.

Unit1126PLL wrote:They hold the line. They may die, but they die doing as the Emperor asks of them. They die standing.

Mostly. Some of them dishonor him and die fleeing...

Others shall be called oathbreakers, as they turn to become slaves of the ruinous powers. And hunted down like the scumbags such traitors are.

I prefer to keep my IG alive and let the others die....standing, sitting crawling....

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Actually, I hate it because people bash the Imperial Guard. They go so far as to ask even why it exists?

Who dares to bash the IG ? Names?
Really those who ask why the IG exists have nothing to say as they don't bother to inform themselves before posting.
Its not a secret hidden somewhere.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I feel like if a real-life Imperial Guard general walked into Dakka and suggested that someone send in *HIS* boys, he'd be laughed out of the room in a tide of space-marine minis.

A real General would not suggest, he'd command. At a rank of General, the accompaniying member of the Comissariat may provide the means to suppress any urge to laugh....

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Here's a food for thought list:

1) Is sacrificing billions to save trillions a good thing? no
2) Do the ends justify the means always (related to above)? no
3) Is the "better-safe-than-sorry" attitude towards Xenos by humans justified?yes
4) Are the transhumanist technophiles right or wrong in their application of technology? (This is difficult especially because of the diverse schools of thought).who cares? Omnissiah be praised is all that matters...
5) Do humans make their own way in the world, or is there some supernatural power doing everything for them and just making their actions seem necessary, or both? the path is set by the Emperor
6) What is the strength of man compared to the other races? Why is Man the rightful owner of the galaxy, and how do they prove this?
You can't compare xenos scum with man! Man owns the Galaxy because the Emperor said so! Man proves this in the only way possible, being the last one left standing...

Thought is unneccessary if you got the teachings of the imperial organizations at your side.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

But I have seen threads standing up for Space Marines, including one that is so audacious as to suggest that [insert space marine chapter here] are the *only* good guys. I have not seen that thread for the Imperial Guard... really I haven't seen any good threads about the Imperial Guard, that are truly positive.

So here one is.

Truly positive threads at Dakka?


We surely need a thread to claim the IG are the good guys..... such improvement so close and we missed the chance!


Background is one of the starting grounds at dakka, so sometimes IG hasn't any threads there.
And good threads are rare....

Unit1126PLL wrote:

But in 40k (and only 40k, as far as I know) scientific progress is literally one of the worst crimes imaginable. I like to explore this question more.

1) Are they right in light of what has happened?
2) Is it possible that human nature can be so badly twisted?
3) Why is this necessary? (related to 1).

1) uncontrolled scientists are as bad as uncontrolled psykers.
2) yes, its a sci-fantasy verse. To twist is only a few key-strokes away...
3) because a focus on science is as unbalanced and dangerous as a focus on the psychic side of humans.

Making fun of the imperial guard?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Private_Joker wrote:Well which would you rather command, 10 space marines or 100 guardsmen?

Depends on the job. 10 Marines would do no good as Baneblade pilots, for example, as they wouldn't fit in the tank.

Where as those 100 Guardsmen likely don't have the knowledge to be able to operate it anyway.


If anything the PDF get made fun of much more than the IG do, as they are the cannon fodder of the cannon fodder. The IG nearly always set the stage for the SM strikes and then they're left to clean up what's left when they're gone. In essence you need both on most occasions.

However the value of a Guardsmen is generally not exaggerating too far, it's grimdark for them to be worth less than the mass produced gun they are handed. They mistreat it and they can be executed for it.

Unit1126PLL wrote:But in 40k (and only 40k, as far as I know) scientific progress is literally one of the worst crimes imaginable. I like to explore this question more.

1) Are they right in light of what has happened?
2) Is it possible that human nature can be so badly twisted?
3) Why is this necessary? (related to 1).

It is precautionary due to the events around the end of the Golden Age. Basically the Terminator happened and the AI rebelled almost wiping out man. Thus they are cautious when it comes to progress, more so after the events during the Heresy. They could have all of the old technology hiding in the depths of Mars, yet they no longer know how to use it. The events of Mechanicum, the creation of the Dark Mechanicum, the almost destruction of humanity again (due to ammo production, armour production etc for the loyalists being mostly on Mars not to mention this allied faction slowly being forced onto Horus' side) was caused simply by opening the equivalent of a storage locker, picking up a USB and going "gee I wonder what's on this?". Not to mention some of the lower levels would still likely have some of those killer cyborgs roaming around. The point is they do in fact have progress (Power Armour is a pretty obvious example), it is just slow mostly due to fear.

Without the guard there is no Imperium. It really is that simple. If the imperium just had the space marine forces the imperium would be about the size of the tau. It takes all of those trillions of guardsmen fighting on all those planets to keep the whole thing running.

I have complete respect for the guard. But seriously, comparing guard with marines is pointless. It would be like comparing a sledge hammer and a wrecking ball. You can't throw marines into year long wars. Attrition is their biggest weakness.

The fluff constantly shows us that wars on planets can take years or even decades before they end. And that for 99% of the war the guard is doing the fighting. Despite marines showing up all the time in books there is still the fluff where most guardsmen fight their entire career without ever seeing a marine. So a planet has 10 years of fighting, the general calls in marines who take part in one crucial strike (kill a leader/disable something important) who then leave and the guard then spend another few months/years mopping up. No guard means the planet fell 10 years before the marines show up. No marines means the war goes on another 10 years.

A bunch of guys with sledge hammers are great for breaking up concrete and knocking down some walls. But when you really need that support pillar down, nothing does the job like a wrecking ball.

I feel that guardsmen are a lot more heroic and brave then space marines. What takes more courage, to face an enemy wearing power armor or in flak armor? Who has more courage, the super soldier who cannot feel fear or the human who has to overcome his fear and fight?

I agree with those who say the Imperium cannot exist without the IG. I'd like to point out they are also venerated and respected to the degree of success they achieve. Lord Solar Mecharius was a man that commanded entire battlegroups into battle, Sebastion Thor was a man who literally overturned the entire Imperium with faith.

While there are many thousands of unsung hero's the Imperium over, they are much the same as the unknown soldier. They deserve our quiet reverence, while their leaders demand a legacy of their own.

Being a fan of the Imperial Guard (and I own as many, if not more IGuard models than most people) means accepting that they are scrubs, lol.

Armed with nothing more that a mag-light, a t-shert and balls of steel, they are expected to face off against the horrors of the warp to faster than lighting Xenos, souless metal men to even those of their own kind.

They do what they do becouse they have to, never asking or getting any thanks from the countless worlds that can sleep safely that night becouse of them.

They are the hammer, shield and sword of the IoM. With out the guard the whole of the IoM would fall.

"We first and last line of of the defence of man. Let none take that honnor from you."