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I am planning to start a LW Heer Panzerkompanie soon, (was going to do Russians, but realized Germans were more versatile for use in MW and LW, and I like how the Germans look)
using the V3 forces book.

Here is my first list:

Headquarters
Panzerkompanie (Heer) HQ- Panther A- 375

Combat Platoons
Panzer Platoon (Heer)- 3 Panther A- 560

Panzer Platoon (Heer)- 4 Panzer IV H- 360

Panzer Platoon (Heer)- 3 Panzer IV H- 270

Weapons Platoon
Panzer Anti-aircraft Gun Platoon (Heer)- 2 Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm)- 80

Divisional Support
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon (Heer)- 3 Panzergrenadier Squads- 220

Air Support
Limited Air Support Ju 87D Stuka-135

Company Points: 2000

So, what do you think of this list?

The main change I could think of is the addition of a Panzerspäh Patrol for reconnaissance, but I don't know if it is really necessary. Also, which is better; the Ju 87D or the Ju 87G (the D seems better for infantry, while the G looks good for anti-tank)?

I couldn't agree more about adding some recon, the ability to lift GTG is really nice for taking out guns and makes your shooting much more effective (every pip less you need when shooting increases your effectiveness greatly, needing 5's instead of 6's doubles it, while going from needing 5's (let's say against Trained concealed, GTG targets ...) to 4's increases your shooting's effectiveness by 50%! If you consider that a big chunk of the price of veterans is their added survivability (requiring a base 4+ to be hit) being able to effectively neutralize that advantage (when they're GTG) is almost a gift for ~100 pts. of recon.

As for the Stuka, I always prefer the G as it's always seemed to me that trading the high SA/low FP attack (cannons) is better than the decent TA/high FP attack (bombs) against all but heavy tanks. The hitting on 3's instead of fours is just the icing on the cake. Here's my quick back of the envelope thinking on it:

Hitting with 1 plane:
Cannon = ~43.5% hit
Bombs = 25% hit

Hitting with 2 planes:
Cannon = 66% hit
Bombs = 50% hit

Hitting with 3 planes:
Cannon = ~90% hit
Bombs = 75% hit

Chance to penetrate some of the most frequently encountered medium LW armor:

Against a Sherman (TA 1, SA 4)
Cannons: AUTO BEAT
Bombs: 33.33% BEAT, 16.66% TIE

Against a PzIV/StuG (TA 1, SA 3)
Cannons: AUTO BEAT
Bombs: 33.33% BEAT, 16.66% TIE

Against a Panther or T-34 (TA 1, SA 5)
Cannons: 83.33% BEAT, 16.66% TIE
Bombs: 33.33% BEAT, 16.66% TIE

Firepower:
Cannons: 50%
Bombs: AUTO

Against the majority of frequently encountered armor bombs will kill an average of 16.66% tanks caught under a template while cannons will average a kill rate of 33.33% of SA=>4 tanks caught under a template and 27.75% of SA 5 tanks caught under a template.

Kills per team under template against infantry:
IN Bulletproof cover
Bombs: 16.5%
Cannons: ~10.9%

NOT IN Bulletproof cover
Bombs: 16.667%
Cannons: 22.22%

Thanks for the reply, I think I will go with the G, as I was looking at the D for anti-infantry (and I liked the 1+ FP A LOT), but my Panzer IV Hs seem like they will work sufficiently for anti-infantry.

I have definitely been thinking of adding in 2 Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad) for 80 points, but I have been having trouble figuring out were to get the 80 pts. from. The only way I can see is to either drop another Panzer IV H, drop the Anti-air, or reduce the Panzergrenadier to 2 Squads and change to sporadic air support, none of which are attractive options. Any thoughts?

You could always drop the third panzer platoon, beef up the other Panzer IV platoon, and roll with 3 pumas instead of 8-rads. Additionally, you could drop the third panzer platoon and add another panther and the 8 rads. Ideally you should try and get to an even number of platoons, and adding the 4th panther would allow you to KG two of them into a platoon with the 2iC in order to make your sixth platoon (with the subbed in 8 rads). As it stands now, at 5 platoons all someone has to do is pop the small PzIV's, AA, and PzG's and you're looking at a company morale check after losing only ~1/4 of your force (as far as points go).

More than anything I'd be worried about how few bodies you have on the board. Sure, Panthers are tough and the PzG's are great, but any casualties you take are going to be immediately felt in such a small force!

I would simply drop the air, while it is better in V3 its not so much better that it needs to be included in every list while armoured lists really need recce. I would also be tempted to swap out the armoured AAA. That would give you 215 which will allow you get get some recce and bulk up your PzIVs to 4.

I agree on dropping the Air. It is better but so is AA. Germans should focus on taking AA and other stuff instead of Limited or, worse, Sporadic.

I have revised my list, with the main changes being the dropping of the air and the changing of the command to Pz IVs (does this make them too fragile? I wanted to space them out)
Here it is:

Headquarters
Panzerkompanie (Heer) HQ- 2 Panzer IV H- 180

Combat Platoons
Panzer Platoon (Heer)- 5 Panther A- 940

Panzer Platoon (Heer)- 3 Panzer IV H- 270

Panzer Platoon (Heer)- 3 Panzer IV H- 270

Weapons Platoon
Panzer Anti-aircraft Gun Platoon (Heer)- 2 Sd Kfz 7/1 (Quad 2cm) (armoured)- 100

Divisional Support
Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Platoon (Heer)- 2 Panzergrenadier Squads- 155

Panzerspäh Patrol (Heer)- 2 Sd Kfz 231 (8-rad)- 80

Company Points: 1995


I have also armored the anti-air to make it a little less fragile, but I am leaving the recon as it is, as I don't have the points to upgrade it and the other options don't improve them much. Thoughts on the new list?

Looks alright.

The panzer IV platoons are a little small, but I think the 5 strong Panther platoon will make up for it.

PzIVs are fine for your HQ, just make sure that your CO is hidden away somewhere. In most situations you want the cheapest CO possible as he really should be somewhere safe 'directing the battle' not actually fighting.

5 Panthers is complete overkill, that's nearly half your army in 5 tanks with TA 1. Keep them at 3 and use the 400 points or so that saves to bulk up both Pz IV platoons to 4 as 3 medium tanks won't last long. You really want you Panzergrenadiers to be full strength with a 'faust as they will be one of your main assault assets.

That will leave you enough points for some Panzerwerfers or at least nebs.

What book is this from?

Edit

I see you are using the forces book which is quite restricted.

How about

HQ- 2 Pz IV

4 Pz IV

4 Pz IV

3 Panthers

full strength gepanzerte panzergrenadier platoon with 'faust

2 8 rad

2 Sd Kfz 7/1

Sporadic Hs 129b (simply because the last few points are hard to spend)

If you are happy not having some AAA you could try:

HQ- 2 Pz IV

4 Pz IV

4 Pz IV

3 Panthers

Full strength Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier platoon with 'faust

2 8 rad

Another full strength Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier platoon with 'faust or an artillery battery with 4 10.5leFH18

Palindrome wrote:PzIVs are fine for your HQ, just make sure that your CO is hidden away somewhere. In most situations you want the cheapest CO possible as he really should be somewhere safe 'directing the battle' not actually fighting.

5 Panthers is complete overkill, that's nearly half your army in 5 tanks with TA 1. Keep them at 3 and use the 400 points or so that saves to bulk up both Pz IV platoons to 4 as 3 medium tanks won't last long. You really want you Panzergrenadiers to be full strength with a 'faust as they will be one of your main assault assets.

That will leave you enough points for some Panzerwerfers or at least nebs.

have ordered 2 boxes of Panzer IVs (10 total) and a box of Panthers (5 total) from PSC, so I will probably experiment with different combinations of Panthers and Panzers. I will try out dropping a Panther for 2 more Panzer IV once I have played the army a little, and see how it goes.

If you are happy not having some AAA you could try:

I think dropping the AA is not a good idea in the new edition, so I will be keeping it to provide some cover for my tanks.

As a fellow German player, I'd agree 100% in keeping the AAA. I have had a few games in with V3, and allied aircraft are very annoying.

Mat

As an Axis player, you need to take AA.

If nothing else, it gives you additional MG(or AT gun) equivilents. and with V3 more machine guns can come in handy, mech or otherwise.

combat engineer wrote:As a fellow German player, I'd agree 100% in keeping the AAA. I have had a few games in with V3, and allied aircraft are very annoying.

Mat

Why? Yes they auto range in on targets in the open but you should be hugging cover anyway and even if you get caught there is still a good chance that you will get though unscathed. Thats assuming that the planes actually turn up, and even if they do your AAA may do nothing anyway. Far too many variable to be overly scared of aircraft IMO. Plus I have always found SP AAA to be a soft target.

I also run Germans, often a Panzer Kompanie, and I have never missed AAA.

Palindrome wrote:

combat engineer wrote:As a fellow German player, I'd agree 100% in keeping the AAA. I have had a few games in with V3, and allied aircraft are very annoying.

Mat

Why? Yes they auto range in on targets in the open but you should be hugging cover anyway and even if you get caught there is still a good chance that you will get though unscathed. Thats assuming that the planes actually turn up, and even if they do your AAA may do nothing anyway. Far too many variable to be overly scared of aircraft IMO. Plus I have always found SP AAA to be a soft target.

I also run Germans, often a Panzer Kompanie, and I have never missed AAA.

I feel it is a good extra precaution against air attacks, and worth the 80 pts. for the added security.

80 points of added security and a bunch of MG shots seems worth it to me.

2 armour 0 tank teams with a range of 16" are just an easy kill. Its your list but those points could be much better spent.

If you insist on taking them seriously reconsider taking the unarmoured version, they die to a gentle breeze.

Palindrome wrote:2 armour 0 tank teams with a range of 16" are just an easy kill. Its your list but those points could be much better spent.

If you insist on taking them seriously reconsider taking the unarmoured version, they die to a gentle breeze.

I am taking the armoured version (see my second list) and I would not be operating them too near the enemy, they just need to be within 24 in. of my tanks for AA.

It also doesn't actually matter too much if they die (other than loss of AA), because I have 6 platoons with them, requiring 4 to be killed for a company check, whereas without them, I would have 5 platoons requiring 3 to be killed for a check. So it won't hurt my army overall for them to die.

80 points is what the unarmoured version costs.

I would also not be too blaise about losing platoons; you have 2 weak and 2 fairly weak platoons, it really wont be too much effort to push you to a Company break test.


As I said though its your list..

Palindrome wrote:80 points is what the unarmoured version costs.

I would also not be too blaise about losing platoons; you have 2 weak and 2 fairly weak platoons, it really wont be too much effort to push you to a Company break test.


As I said though its your list..

I was wrong about the points, but what I was saying was that it is only an added platoon, so it does not negatively affect my army if killed.

like I said, with 5 platoons (if I didn't take it), it would take 3 destroyed platoons to put me under half. With the AA, I have 6 platoons, and it will take 4 platoons destroyed to be under half. This means its weakness has no bearing on putting me under half platoons, as it is only an added platoon on top of how many it would take with 5 platoons.