Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I have a small tourney coming up that is 1600 pts, weird amount I know. I have been considering what army to bring and I think I am taking my orks. I have tried running a Nob biker squad and 2 bw with shoota boyz nob pk, big mek with pk, bp, attack squig, 11 man foot slog nob pk, 5 lootas, it has done fine with testing, but I was thinking about running an all foot list, then someone (namely NorbutheDestroyer on DakkaDakka), suggested Old Zogwart to go IC hunting. I was thinking about running 3 squads of lootas, 3 squads of 30 shoota boyz, 2 grot squads to be out front, big mek with pk and ghazy, but the more I think about the list I think Zogwart might be really good for a small list. I could do Zogwart, Big Mek, 4 shoota boyz with nob pk, 3 loota squads of 6, 2 10 man grot squads, or lose the grotz and take 3 kannons for more heavy weapons, the only problem there is no one to be out front eating fire while my boyz slog it....
Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are..
I think Zogwart is a loose cannon, he is pretty good at CC just no pk, but the poison attacks wound on 2s at I4 which is nice. If I keep him with my big mek and a 30 boyz squad they can watch out for him, maybe even kill and IC or 2. Which lets face it with someone like mephiston, who would probably tear my nobz a new one....
Or am I better with ghazy?

I am not a fan of Ghaz in a foot slogging list as he has slow and purposeful rule which can really bog down whatever unit you are with. When I run green tide, I never bring a KFF. I either run with grots up front or 'ard boyz. Both of which are probably heresy here on dakka.

I would much rather have a Warboss on a bike in this list than Ghaz. Increased toughness, mobility, etc. are all useful for green tide.

As for Zogwort, I love him. He is pretty flimsy in CC, but he can really buff a squad up. Plus, his curse can really unnerve people.

As for the remainder of your list, I would definitely recommend kannons. THey are the best 80 points you can spend in the game. You really don't need that many grots. 19 and a herder is only 67 points.

Thanks for the info... So do you run a whole bike squad then or do you just run the warboss on a bike with a squad of boyz?

squiging in a tournyy definatly would deserve cool points in my book, and old zoggy does decent in close combat due to next of vipers D6 initiative 4 attacks poisoned with a 2+ to wound,, rerolls on toughness 4 or less.

weirdboys/zoggy are pretty solid and cool and make for fun unpredictable games. I've seen old zoggy put to good use in a vehicle with nobz squad , and with flashgitx beleive it or not

I love the 19 grot screen as well. It is a 4+ save across, or the enemy can dump fire into the grots(wee!). it's cheaper than a KFF for that matter as well. I like the Dok and Ghaz up front. 4+ cover from grots and FNP from dok with wound allocation going to ghaz and the Dok and a nob with eavy armor means that most of my 30 pack is going to get across the board(eventually). Don't forget with ghaz slogging, you get 3d6 for SNP as long as you are not actually IN terrain. If you are out in the open, you get to use the movement rule of the slowest character and Ghaz is 3d6 for being an IC.

I really wish Zogwort was a sargent "boss" type character and didnt take an HQ slot, like zaggstruk or snikrot. You would probably see him alot more if he was like 100 points and was a sargent that could be added to a nob squad or something. Sucks because the zogwort model is wicked cool looking. It really tough to justify him though outside of game where you are runing him for fun for 180? points.

That being said, I HAVE always wanted to put zogwort in a nob squad w waaagh banner and teleport across the board and wreck things.

I have never played flashgitz in 5th ed, I always thought they were a bit pricey for what you got. I am debating on whether to bring a nobz squad or just bring more boyz squads (I think the boyz squads are winning out). The Nobz are nice, but usually fall to a big CC or get target priority... What to do

I have run Dok and Zogwort together with 30 'ard boyz. This was at a tournament as well. It made for some... interesting ... results.

As for the warboss, I would run him solo on a bike attached to a mob. Once he is needed, he can break off and really put a hurt down on something or he can stick with the boyz. Its really situationally dependent.

As for nobz on foot, I would say no. They will get picked off before they make it across the board. With green tide, your best bet is simply flooding your opponent with 6 point targets.

Grots R OP wrote: Don't forget with ghaz slogging, you get 3d6 for SNP as long as you are not actually IN terrain. If you are out in the open, you get to use the movement rule of the slowest character and Ghaz is 3d6 for being an IC.

I am pretty sure when an IC is joined to a squad you only get 2d6 for movement, at least that is the standing rule at my local game store... HOWEVER... If you can point me to the page in the rule book that says otherwise, I would LOVE to be able to show my oppenents this so that I can do this, because that would make him so much faster.... Thanks again for the post and cheers


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Green is Best! wrote:

I have run Dok and Zogwort together with 30 'ard boyz. This was at a tournament as well. It made for some... interesting ... results.

As for the warboss, I would run him solo on a bike attached to a mob. Once he is needed, he can break off and really put a hurt down on something or he can stick with the boyz. Its really situationally dependent.

As for nobz on foot, I would say no. They will get picked off before they make it across the board. With green tide, your best bet is simply flooding your opponent with 6 point targets.

An interesting thought, not running the big mek and using MAd Doc - did you load that 30 mob with Cybork bodies too? It would be funny to give the grots invulns , make the front line more surviveable, but more expensive too... How did the two Doc and Zogwort work? Did they perform well together? Did you have problems with Doc having to always go to the nearest target/enemy - I have not usually found this to be a disadvantage... I look forward to your reply.. thanks for the post

I have actually debated this to the downside that they should only move at 2d6. But after discussing it with a guy that allows the rule to work that way-he is a tourney ref out here on the west coast, and having reread page 47 and 48 of BRB a few times, I do believe this is the correct interpretation of the following specific rules that would make you think it would be 2d6:

pg 47 ICs have "move through cover" USR. (OK so he gets 3d6)

pg 48 Special rule: He does not give his special rule to a unit he joins. (This would make you think that if he is in a unit, that the unit would not get the 3d6)

pg 76 SNP states models with this rule always count as having moved through terrain.

pg 11, a unit moves at the speed of the slowest model. (Hmm ghazz's speed is 3d6 because he's an IC moving through cover)

Now granted, there are some points of contention in the above rules. but if you just look at it, in terms of speed there is:

1. SNP = 2d6
2. IC SNP 3d6
3. regular movement 6"

A unit of boyz with ghazz in it has a "lowest speed" of 3d6 when they are in the open. Theres nothing preventing the boyz from moving 6" besides ghaz's 3d6. So they move at 3d6-the lowest speed in the unit.

But lets suppose ghaz and the boyz want to cut through a crater, now they have the typical 2d6-because the boyz are moving through cover now and ghaz does not apply his special rule to them. In this case ghaz's rule is not conferred RAW to the boyz. The boyz are now the slowest models in the unit RAW.

I can't find a problem with that argument and it seems pretty fair from a gaming perspective.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I am pretty sure when an IC is joined to a squad you only get 2d6 for movement

I was wrong. It's the higher of 2D6".

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:An interesting thought, not running the big mek and using MAd Doc - did you load that 30 mob with Cybork bodies too? It would be funny to give the grots invulns , make the front line more surviveable, but more expensive too... How did the two Doc and Zogwort work? Did they perform well together? Did you have problems with Doc having to always go to the nearest target/enemy - I have not usually found this to be a disadvantage... I look forward to your reply.. thanks for the post

For the cost of Cybork, more Boyz would be more effective. It is only a 5+ save, and your opponent is probably not going to waste the types of shots that will negate Feel No Pain on the Boyz accompanying the Gud Dokter if they don't have Cybork bodies. Grotsnik and a Weirdboy work great as long as you don't roll "'Ere We Go!" Then you cross the Swartzchild Radius and Time and Space become inverted. Here are a few threads I've started on the subjects. I found a KFF Big Mek and a Warphead are very workable.

Wierdboy and Doc Grotsnik in same unit
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/401694.page

Really Impressed by Ork Weirdboy Shooting
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/428252.page

One problem I'd like to point out is that you cannot use zogworts curse on mephiston. The curse works on models that are listed as independent characters. Mephistons rules dont mark him as an IC. Someone make him an IC!

So that he can hide inside a squad of DC or Assault Marines, making him even harder for you to take out?

Grots R OP wrote:

I have actually debated this to the downside that they should only move at 2d6. But after discussing it with a guy that allows the rule to work that way-he is a tourney ref out here on the west coast, and having reread page 47 and 48 of BRB a few times, I do believe this is the correct interpretation of the following specific rules that would make you think it would be 2d6:

pg 47 ICs have "move through cover" USR. (OK so he gets 3d6)

pg 48 Special rule: He does not give his special rule to a unit he joins. (This would make you think that if he is in a unit, that the unit would not get the 3d6)

pg 76 SNP states models with this rule always count as having moved through terrain.

pg 11, a unit moves at the speed of the slowest model. (Hmm ghazz's speed is 3d6 because he's an IC moving through cover)

Now granted, there are some points of contention in the above rules. but if you just look at it, in terms of speed there is:

1. SNP = 2d6
2. IC SNP 3d6
3. regular movement 6"

A unit of boyz with ghazz in it has a "lowest speed" of 3d6 when they are in the open. Theres nothing preventing the boyz from moving 6" besides ghaz's 3d6. So they move at 3d6-the lowest speed in the unit.

But lets suppose ghaz and the boyz want to cut through a crater, now they have the typical 2d6-because the boyz are moving through cover now and ghaz does not apply his special rule to them. In this case ghaz's rule is not conferred RAW to the boyz. The boyz are now the slowest models in the unit RAW.

I can't find a problem with that argument and it seems pretty fair from a gaming perspective.

I can. Page 74, third paragraph. "The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule."

"Move Through Cover" is marked with a *, so is lost if the unit Ghazz joins doesn't have it. So unless he joins Kommandos when he is attached to a unit he doesn't have "Move Through Cover" and so can only move 2d6.

Chrysis wrote:I can. Page 74, third paragraph. "The special rules marked with an asterisk (*) are automatically lost by an independent character joining a unit that does not have the same special rule."

"Move Through Cover" is marked with a *, so is lost if the unit Ghazz joins doesn't have it. So unless he joins Kommandos when he is attached to a unit he doesn't have "Move Through Cover" and so can only move 2d6.

This. Thrakka rolles 2d6 like anyone else if he joins any unit other than kommandoz.

As people stated earlier, cyborking those boyz is just too expensive. Especially when you consider they are your front line meat shields.

'Ere we go can be annoying, but the few times it happened, I simply put Zogwort in a spot that got them closer to the enemy, but would let them come in in a valid formation. I recall a heated thread about this a while back, but never had any grief over it (even in tournament play).

As for Dok's rage, I always ran in a green tide formation, so there were 120+ boys behind him. There was literally no place to place go but forward. The most successful kite was when a guy tankshocked his land raider into the middle of this unit. They were forced to circle it until the Dok and the Nob finally managed to kill it. (Took about 2-3 turns if I recall).

Between the 4+ armor save and Dok's FNP, those boys took a ton of abuse before dying. Usually they lasted long enough for the remainder of my mobs to cross the board and start krumping stuff. I am not claiming this to be a top tier list or game changing, but it does catch people off guard when they are staring down 150 orks. Usual formation was:

screen of grots
30 'ard boyz with Dok and Zogwort
3 x 30 slugga boyz (I know shootas are better, but I already built the models).
Lootas and kannons in the back (sometimes I dropped Zogwort for a Big Mek w/ SAG).

If points allowed, Snikrot with as many kommandos as I could afford.

This tourney is only 1600pts so I think I am better off taking as many boyz as I can, thought about deffkoptas, but so expensive. I like the idea in a small points game of trying zogwart. Thought about a big mek, but I do so love Mad Doc, so think I will try him instead, esp. since screen will give others cover save... Cheers all and thanks

Thanks for clarification on SNP. I would agree that ghazz can only move 2d6 when in a unit since he loses move through cover when joining unit. It''s a pretty complex rule and I apologize for misleading anyone. Stupid *

@ Green, you were the one that first told me about the Dok. I have been playing him every game. My opinion is the Ard boy upgrade is not needed in the dok's group esp w the grot screen. Ap 3+ gets assigned to Ghazz,dok,EA nob(FNP), then the rest FNP to the boyz. AP 1/2/3 goes to boyz and FNP on AP 3. Cybork is a nice thing to have vs power weapons in cc but I think the points are better spent elsewhere. Once i get this list tuned up I am going to try the cybork because I had some luck with 20 packs of cyborked choppas + dok. I want to try 30.

The 'Ere we go is the only really annoying thing I can think of for Zogwort and Doc, but I am concerned about this...... Esp if I run them with a squad of 30 boyz

So, how do the tourney go and what list did you take?

Well it went pretty well. I won 2 of the 3 rounds and tied the last game (which I could have won had I done a different deployment, but hindsight is 20/20)

I put a battle report together on the tourney I will post the link here for anyone to see on dakka...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/449223.page

hope you enjoy

Have an 1850 pt tourney next month and trying to contemplate a foot or a mech ork list.... cheers