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I'm looking to build a wych cult list to beat necrons at 1850pts. I want to keep it at as many wyches as possible, I was just wondering what you guys what recommend taking or tactics to use against them. The list I'm playing looks something like, 9 spyders, 3 scarabs, 2x6 wraiths with 3 whip coils, 2x8 immortals with tesla, imotekh...

So just spam wyches?

8 Wyches, one is a hekatrix with agoniser
1 haemonculus with liquifier
1 raider with flickerfield
240 points
x6 = 1440 points

410 points to spend on ravagers, talos, or bloodbrides as you see fit. If you take three ravagers + flickerfields, the cost is 345. Leaves you with another 65 points with which you can add another wyche to every squad, or buy other upgrades as you see fit. This would give you 15 dark lance shots per turn maximum (a little below the usual of 1 lance per 100 points). You will have used up all of your HQ choices, so no more FNP for other wyche squads you purchase. Consider taking haywires everywhere if you're not taking ravagers.

The Duke as an HQ unit. You don't get much better than wounding on a 2+ that becomes a PW on a 5+. And being able to choose combat drugs.

Also, Agonisers.

Thanks for the help, I didn't really want to put in a bunch of haemonculi so I came up with the following, please tell me what you think, the list is mainly for fighting necrons but I also need it for other lists in general:
Duke Sliscus
6 Reavers, 2 Heat Lances
6 Reavers, 2 Heat Lances
9 Wyches, 1 Shardnet and Imapler, Hekatrix with agonizer, Raider, Enhanced Aethersails
9 Wyches, 2 Shardnet and Impalers, Hekatrix with agonizer, Raider, Enhanced Aethersails
9 Wyches, 2 Shardnet and Impalers, Hekatrix with agonizer and PGL, Raider, Enhanced Aethersails
9 Wyches, 2 Shardnet and Impalers, Hekatrix with agonizer and PGL, Raider, Enhanced Aethersails
5 Kabalite Trueborns, 2 Splinter Cannons, 3 Shardcarbines, Venom
Ravager, Flicker Fields
Ravager, Flicker Fields
Razorwing

I have heard that whatever Reavers can do, some other unit can do better, but I have not seen them in action.

I wouldn't bother with the Aethersails on the boats, but definitely take Flickerfields on everything ever.

If you really like Wyches a lot and want a themed army, Lelith is great in CC. Make no mistake, she's really expensive, but she's stylish.

The Trueborn Venom: unsure about Shardcarbines. The two Cannons are on the vehicle itself, right? I feel like the troops can be given something better, either Cannons themselves to mow things down or Blasters to break tanks.

Hey, your opponent is running my list! Seriously, scarab/spyder team (little/big) w/growth potential, wraith component, Imotekh, dude stole my army! If he's got an AB** and CCB Overlord as a second HQ unit. How funny. I'm playing a Dark Eldar friend next too, let me know how this goes and what works for you.

** edit: no, he filled out the spyder slots, I left one for the AB. (for points reasons, actually.) but he's got it like I *used* to have it, lol!

It looks like you've got the right idea, or at least are doing what I'm scared of. He's going to want to hang back and let the lightning whittle away at you while his scarabs grow. The power balance will shift significantly by turn 3, with the addition of 400pts scarabs and your losing (checking..) probably 2 or 3 of your vehicles to lightning. Even though he's got a two-wraith setup vs. my one, he's still got the same problem I do - avoiding early decisive combat. You're right up in our knickers though, aren't you, fast! lol He might even reserve Imotekh here.

I'm not sure how important your dark lance count is, they're not going to be able to fire more than night-fight range and you're not going up against a mech army. I can't really help you with list building though, of course you'll know your own guys much better than I can. I can tell you what worked against me when we play our game. I'm playing probably the nicest gamer I know, but he's also very good, we'll both learn a lot and I'll share.

Remember your entire army gets Night Vision, so you can re-roll your night fighting range. It makes shooting a little less painful in the first few turns.

Yeah the shard carbines and the two cannons are in the true born squad, I didn't want the duke's power to go to waste, I love lelith but the problem is all the toughness 6 spiders IDing her, wraiths IDing her and scarabs tar pitting her and her squad for a lot less points then the squad costs so I've been hesitant to use her, the problem really is that I can't seem to break through the spider/scarab wall he uses to block all the troops and advance and then wraiths on the flank and jump through terrain, oh an he doesn't wait for lightning and assaults as fast as possible

Zro1312 wrote:...oh an he doesn't wait for lightning and assaults as fast as possible

hunh, with a full-on nine-spyder loadout AND Imotekh, that's agressive. I mean, CC is gonna happen eventually, but dawdling a bit is to the Necron's advantage.

How can you take advantage of this? hmm... I'ma chat w/my DE buddy.

That army has some fat that can be trimmed and replaced with some good stuff.

First of all, drop the phantasm grenade launchers. The only time you should ever buy that upgrade is on an archon that's going to be accompanying a unit that doesn't already have grenades. Defensive grenades on Wyches is absolutely silly, as your speed allows you to dictate when and where the assaults happen. That'll save you enough points to throw some flickerfields around. The aether sails can go too. He's playing aggressively enough that you don't need them, and you don't want that extra movement turn one, otherwise he'll just get to assault you first. You're DE. You decide when and where the assaults happen.

Drop the reavers while you're at it. As much as I love reavers, and have argued their merits in many other threads... They're not contributing much to this list. If he's running a semi-mechanized build, I'd suggest blasterborn to replace them. If not, and he's going all foot (which it sounds like he is from your OP) repeat the dakkaborn build you've already got. 3x carbines and 2x cannons and a venom with 2x cannons, but drop one of them down to 2x carbines and 2x cannons and stick the duke in there to take advantage of his 3+ poison weapon rule.

That'll honestly save you enough points that you can probably throw flickerfields on everything else, which you're gonna want.

As for general tips.... Don't fight unit to unit. Gang up on his squads. If he's bringing two units of wraiths to the party, hit them with all six units of wyches. Use your speed to gang up on and eliminate his assault elements isolated from one another.

Edit: Remember that your monoscythe missiles are str 6 and his scarabs are vulnerable to blasts. That means that for every instant-death wound you inflict on his models, he has to remove two bases from the scarab unit. IT's incredibly brutal, and can wipe out a scary unit of scarabs in a heartbeat. If you have the models, you might even consider dropping the second ravager, replacing the first with a second razorwing and then throwing some more flickerfields around.

Lokas wrote:First of all, drop the phantasm grenade launchers. The only time you should ever buy that upgrade is on an archon that's going to be accompanying a unit that doesn't already have grenades. Defensive grenades on Wyches is absolutely silly, as your speed allows you to dictate when and where the assaults happen. That'll save you enough points to throw some flickerfields around.

Is this actually true? Necron CC types have excellent closing abilities. The slowest (Spyders) are MC's, thereby getting free move-through-cover. The next slowest (!!) are Wraiths, jump infantry that moves 12" and ignores all terrain for an 18" thread radius regardless. Next are Scarabs, with an even greater threat range (~21-22") due to "fleet" and 12" assault range b/c of "beast" unit type. And finally, CCB's can hit you from 24" away in a sweep. I mean, sure, Wyches are "fleet", but what's that let you outmaneuver, the Spyders? (Granted he's got a LOT of Spyders. )

Are you sure those defensive grenades are wasted? I'm asking, not sure, you all's CC stuffs are complicated.

Flickerfields are good, anything that'll ameliorate lightning strike damage is good - but with an AV10 open-topped skimmer it's not going to matter much. (Average with this army list some 4.2 hits per strike, due to strike-count reroll from Chronometron, comes down to some 2.7-3.0 actual hits per strike, maths is complicated.)

I totally agree on blast templates, and a long-range fire support skimmer is great against Necrons, double up on these babies. (I hate these guys.) Don't get close to the CCB, he'll sweep you out of the sky as an afterthought - no saves, no chance. Not much else can touch you if you keep your distance, though.

I mean I'm kind of nervous about dropping the reavers because this is just his most played list, the other two are necrons in barges and tau (plus if I want to use this list against GK i think they'd be great against psyfleman so they don't snipe all my raiders), so I feel they would be very useful against those. I was just confused, what's the verdict on the PGL, should I drop it or not? I guess it makes sense to drop the aethersails. I'm mostly worried about the wraiths however, I feel like the true born and dark lances can deal with them, any advice for wraiths?

Randall Turner wrote: Is this actually true? Necron CC types have excellent closing abilities. The slowest (Spyders) are MC's, thereby getting free move-through-cover. The next slowest (!!) are Wraiths, jump infantry that moves 12" and ignores all terrain for an 18" thread radius regardless. Next are Scarabs, with an even greater threat range (~21-22") due to "fleet" and 12" assault range b/c of "beast" unit type. And finally, CCB's can hit you from 24" away in a sweep. I mean, sure, Wyches are "fleet", but what's that let you outmaneuver, the Spyders? (Granted he's got a LOT of Spyders. )

Are you sure those defensive grenades are wasted? I'm asking, not sure, you all's CC stuffs are complicated.

Absolutely, if you don't play poorly. For one, necrons losing a single attack per model isn't all that huge of a deal for them. Yeah, it's less potential damage, but not by a really noticeable margin. Secondly, DE should still always get the assault if the DE player knows what (s)he's doing. If the DE player charges up the field on their first turn, flat outing everything and generally disregarding safety... Well, yeah. They're going to get assaulted, and going to take horrible horrible casualties. Which is why you don't do that. Feth around in your deployment zone a bit. Move up juuust enough to get your 36" guns into good positions, and then let her rip, but not so close that the Necron player can get to you in the following turn. Next turn, the necron player moves up. Well, a particularly canny opponent will also dally around in his deployment zone a bit, but that's a fight he's going to lose if he plays it for too long. Even with Imhotek's lightning, Necrons cannot match DE's long range firepower. This forces the Necron player to make the first aggressive move. His CCB's can move up 24", but aren't going to sweep anything right off the bat if you've played it cautiously. That is, if you haven't popped the CCB's right off the bat like I prefer to do. Rest of the army just moves up shy of the midfield. DE can potentially fall back further to allow another full round of shooting, or now move forward and get their charges out thanks to their 12" move with Raiders, 2" disembark, D6" fleet, and 6" assault move. Yeah. DE should always get the first assault. The only time they don't is if they're locked in combat (which defensive grenades do not proc if they're already in combat) or if the player is playing poorly.

Keep in mind, I'm writing this with your typical pitched battle deployment in mind. Spearhead just works so much more in the DE's favor. You can almost guarantee two full turns of shooting, and the wraith's greater movement will widen the gap between them and their support units, making them that much easier to isolate and destroy. Or, they'll hang back and suffer more shooting. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Dawn of War is a trickier affair though. I usually hold everything I have off the board and cede the first turn to my opponent. Then move in from the board to counter their first turn of movement. You can usually get a refused flank from this, as giving them the first turn makes most folks spread out a bit more than they normally would to try and counter threats from every direction. In which case, the DE can move on and engage a fraction of their army and obliterate it before focusing on the rest. Although some of these tactics are very generalistic, and don't just apply to Necrons.

Randall Turner wrote:Flickerfields are good, anything that'll ameliorate lightning strike damage is good - but with an AV10 open-topped skimmer it's not going to matter much. (Average with this army list some 4.2 hits per strike, due to strike-count reroll from Chronometron, comes down to some 2.7-3.0 actual hits per strike, maths is complicated.)

Flickerfields are a godsend if you ask me. If I can't take a vehicle with a flickerfield, I won't take it at all. I have always had average luck with my flickerfield saves, and have been amazed how much more survivable they make our flimsy vehicles. As always, YMMV.


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Zro1312 wrote:I mean I'm kind of nervous about dropping the reavers because this is just his most played list, the other two are necrons in barges and tau (plus if I want to use this list against GK i think they'd be great against psyfleman so they don't snipe all my raiders), so I feel they would be very useful against those. I was just confused, what's the verdict on the PGL, should I drop it or not? I guess it makes sense to drop the aethersails. I'm mostly worried about the wraiths however, I feel like the true born and dark lances can deal with them, any advice for wraiths?

Reavers don't do anyting that blasterborn can't do better. Hate to say it, because I adore the unit, but yeah. Keep in mind the range on those heat lances. You practically have to turbo-boost the first turn to get to grips with the psyflemen, which still gives them a whole turn of shooting at your skimmers. You're not losing anything by swapping them out for blasterborn, and you're gaining more lances (with a longer range, and aren't reliant on melta's D6 additional penetration) and armor saturation.

And yes, drop the PGL. See above for my reasoning.

As for wraiths, just gang up on them with your Wyches. Make sure you get the charge, and hit them with at the very least twice their numbers. Rending does not deny you your invulnerable save, so you'll find wyches to be surprisingly resilient, especially with 3-4 shardnets involved in the assault reducing their attacks. Try to make your assault moves carefully to get those special weapons wyches in base to base with as many wraiths as possible. That is, of course, if any survive your alpha strike. Which, some will without a doubt. Besides, I'd be more concerned about dropping that CCB first. Wraiths can be handled by wych gangbangs in CC. That CCB cannot, and it can do dirty, nasty things to your skimmers. The kind of things that are forbidden to speak about in polite company, and are illegal in all 51 states.'

I'm also going to amend something I said earlier. Don't take the 3x shardcarbines and 2x splinter cannons trueborn build. It's almost as expensive as a blasterborn squad, and not as effective. Just take blasterborn instead, and maybe one unit of 4x shardcarbines for the duke to pal around with.

I didn't want to ask this question initially, because Zro was specifically asking about a Wych (ie, CC) solution and I know it's hard to apply ranged combat standoff tactics to a Necron night-fight list, but is that possible here? I assume that's what you've been trying to this point, Zro? What have been your problems?

Obvious one is that if you're trying to engage with a Dark Lance your average effective range drops down to (maths time...) looks like 23.5" vs. 21" for the rest of us, assuming you'll reroll the initial 7 or less. So there'll be times where you're trying to stick-and-move and you'll just not get to fire, even with splinter rifles etc.

Another one depends on your board setup, ie, how much terrain is available - one patch of wheatfield multiplies a scarab unit's effectiveness dramatically.

Assuming a reasonably "busy" table, I take it you're just having no choice but to try to counter with a CC solution? And Lokas, I think you're only able to guarantee one turn of fire on a closing Necron force before they'll contact, and again honestly - if you drag it out too long with Parthian tactics it's liable to backfire, especially if he moves his Spyders up together with his Scarabs (which is how it usually works, the Scarabs "dash ahead" on the attack turn.) Staying out of assault range (18"/21"/24") will actually force some "unlucky" shots to fail if you can't eyeball it that finely.

But a firing solution is best here! At LEAST to attrit the incoming critters.

Do you all have any night-fight shenanigans? (going to find that out against Eric shortly anyway, I bet. )

Randall Turner wrote:I didn't want to ask this question initially, because Zro was specifically asking about a Wych (ie, CC) solution and I know it's hard to apply ranged combat standoff tactics to a Necron night-fight list, but is that possible here? I assume that's what you've been trying to this point, Zro? What have been your problems?

Obvious one is that if you're trying to engage with a Dark Lance your average effective range drops down to (maths time...) looks like 23.5" vs. 21" for the rest of us, assuming you'll reroll the initial 7 or less. So there'll be times where you're trying to stick-and-move and you'll just not get to fire, even with splinter rifles etc.

Another one depends on your board setup, ie, how much terrain is available - one patch of wheatfield multiplies a scarab unit's effectiveness dramatically.

Assuming a reasonably "busy" table, I take it you're just having no choice but to try to counter with a CC solution? And Lokas, I think you're only able to guarantee one turn of fire on a closing Necron force before they'll contact, and again honestly - if you drag it out too long with Parthian tactics it's liable to backfire, especially if he moves his Spyders up together with his Scarabs (which is how it usually works, the Scarabs "dash ahead" on the attack turn.) Staying out of assault range (18"/21"/24") will actually force some "unlucky" shots to fail if you can't eyeball it that finely.

But a firing solution is best here! At LEAST to attrit the incoming critters.

Do you all have any night-fight shenanigans? (going to find that out against Eric shortly anyway, I bet. )

Even wych cults have a lot of long ranged fire. Dark lances on every transport for every wych squad, ravagers and/or razorwings throwing more dark lances into the mix, trueborn squads with dakka venoms throwing out 36+ splinter cannon shots a turn...

It's weight of fire and army-wide night vision that overcomes the night-fighting problem. You're not going to get to fire all of your dark lances and splinter cannons, but you'll get to fire enough barring a chain of dreadful night vision rolls.

As for finding good firing lanes, that's where the DE speed comes in. It's incredibly easy to redeploy in your own deployment zone and focus your firepower down one vulnerable shooting lane. All of our vehicles can move 12" and fire all their weapons, and when you're just shifting around your own deployment zone, that's more than enough.

On Pitched Battle and Dawn of War, usually yes, you can only guarantee one full turn of unmolested shooting. You can sometimes manage two, but that takes some tactical genius on your part, or some tactical failure on your opponent's part. Which is why I'd say focus as much firepower as possible on the CCB for that initial shooting phase. Bring him down. Then in subsequent shooting phases, dark lances and splinter cannons go into the Spyders, monoscythes go into the scarabs and wyches go into the wraiths.

I'll wholly agree that holding back for too long can screw you. If you cannot absolutely positively guarantee that second turn of them not getting to you (IE: You can't stay between 30-36" back) then you need to move forward and engage them in CC. If you can stay back at least thirty inches from his scarabs and nineteen inches from his wraiths, by all means, pour some more shots into them before engaging. DE weapons have longer ranges than Necron assault bubbles. For a CC oriented player, hell, any CC oriented player, not just Necrons, make them close the gap for you. Make them try to get within 18" of you so you can positively guarantee an assault. If they're staying 20+" back to try and deny you that assault, take a step back and shoot the crap out of them. You have plenty of dark lances on your raiders and plenty of splinter cannons on your venoms.

Lokas wrote:If they're staying 20+" back to try and deny you that assault, take a step back and shoot the crap out of them. You have plenty of dark lances on your raiders and plenty of splinter cannons on your venoms.

Eldar average night-fight range is 23.5", you can't take that step back, partner! (Unless it's a tiny step back)

Assume you can eyeball 25" (out of CCB and best possible Scarab assault range of 24") - odds of sighting him are: 10/36 + (26/36 * 10/36), or 48% - you're going to miss half your shots. And you can't "shoot the crap" out of him because you can't concentrate fire - it's geometrically challenged arraying an entire fire line 25-27" away. If you "goof" and get 27.1" away (very easy to do), your odds of sighting go down to 31%, or missing a third of your shots.

Imperial Guard and Gray Knights can make this work with their searchlights. (They stick a sacrificial speed-bump out there with a flashlight.) Eldar, maybe need a slight wrinkle. If you can guarantee the entire target unit is rendered ineffective, and he allows them to get separated on the approach, you can maybe close a bit more on just the one unit. Losing even just one of his Wraith units will sting like a bugger. Those, though, are usually choosing approach routes through cover if available.

Well I'm not really sure how to respond to the question randall (it's late) but the real problem is that I just can't seem to take down the wraiths, the spiders, and the scarabs along with having to worry about his troops advancing on objectives and so on, so I guess the problems I've mostly had are effectively killing the wraiths, which strike fast, and then the scarabs and spiders which I need to strike before they hit me so at the same time that I'm trying to fight the wraiths, plus all the s6 is very annoying

Bring lelith and toss her into the scarabs, she will kill/tie them up the WHOLE game alone. When you fail a save she doesn't lose her armor either If you get her a pain token buy starting her with a small unit of wracks then your super alright!

Aside from that I don't think wyches are suited to CC necrons. CC necrons are fearless and have several wounds, great saves or high toughness or all of the above which is bad new bears for a wych cult. Even against the troops, they have t4 3+ save and get back up which means if you don't sweep them your screwed.

Yeah I'm realizing more and more that I'm not that effective but is there really no way to take down the spiders and wraiths? I'm not worried about the scarabs, never had problems with them

The problem isn't all the s6, it's all the t3!

Seriously, I think this is just a bad matchup. I'm trying though, partner. One of the few things I'm coming up with is that if you can outlast Imotekh's night-fight (very few Necron players also take Solar Pulses like I do) you can start using normal DE skirmish tactics. You might run out of time in the game before you kill him off, but at least you get to draw some blood. (You pointy headed guys like that, right?) To that end, try to go second, might as well even reserve, you don't want to engage OR expose yourself to lightning so if you come on piecemeal it's not a big deal.

The other pro-active tactic is to kill Imotekh. I don't know exactly how they work but I hear good things about hexrifles. If you can get a clear shot at him, it would make a lot of your problems go away. This might be the single most effective non-passive thing you can do - take a couple of suicide squads.

Then, do both - reserve, avoid, and assasinate.

Obvious counter to obvious tactic is Imotekh reserving, hope that doesn't happen.

I thought the storm doesn't end when he dies? Wasn't it faq'd

Honestly, the haemonculi coven is better suited. Bring a 10 man grotesque unit with 2 haemis for the tokens. That fearless blob will be your anchor, now reserve the rest and maybe use a web-way. By the time the fighting starts the storm should be over.

I believe the original intent of Lord of the Storm was for the special rule to be in effect throughout regardless of Imotekh's animate status. But I believe the FAQ decision to allow Chronometron rerolls of the storm continuation roll effectively established the continuation as a "personal" action. I'm not aware of a FAQ that states otherwise, though I could be mistaken.

tl;dr - killing Imotekh ends the storm on the following turn.

Waiting out the storm means waiting out three or four turns of lightning strikes. These DE dudes are pretty cool in a lot of ways, but soaking up damage is NOT one of them. And waiting for three-four turns before DE can use "stick-and-move" tactics is the core problem - the game will be decided by then.

Burn his minis then


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Honestly its just a tough match-up, keep your KP tally low so he has less opportunity for strikes. That's is the best way to mitigate that issue honestly.

Red Corsair wrote:Honestly its just a tough match-up.

This

I think I might have to just play a different army altogether against him, any suggestions?

If you want to win? Grey Knights.

If you want to be a respectable human being with some claim to decency? Anything except Grey Knights.

If DE go first alpha strike, if DE go 2nd full reserve and avoid 2 turns of the storm.

The battle is pretty cut and dry.

Monoscythe the scarabs to a manageable size then tarpit them with FNP wyches and a haem.

Blasterborne and dark lance the spyders

Venoms should shoot the wraiths. The best way to handle them mass wounds.

Don't attempt to assassinate immotekh he is T5 2+ 3++, assault his unit of immortals instead and direct all attacks into the unit. If they break and run it's necron I2 versus wych cult I6.

Wraiths will tear up wyches, as will a fat block of scarabs. Small blocks of scarabs will be a tarpit. Whyches should be able to tarpit spyders if they get the assault off.

schadenfreude wrote:If DE go first alpha strike.

You can't. They're all out of range.