Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One of the quirks about shooting is that AP values get exponentially more effective the lower they are. However, I noticed this isnt as useful as it might seem. Examplej

Ap value:
-: Crap vs vehicles obviously, but most make up for it with high str.

6: Better than nothing! This is a weird one; few units have just a 6+ save, and they are probably going to be in cover. But again, often balanced by high str (multilaser)

5: Probably the most common AP value. A GEQ killer, though thats not saying much. Still decent vs light infantry.

4: Another weird one. Its only niche and 'elite' units that have a 4+ armor save, so this one is probably shooting at 5+ save guys generally.

3: The MEQ killer, and excellent weapon for dispatching most infantry.

2: Capable of killing any infantry. Generally anti tank weapons.

Most of this is obvious. But whats not so obvious is that the least usefuk ap value seems to be 4. This is because few armies have a lot of troops as 4+ armor. They are either there but mediocre and sparsely used (tau firewarriors) or a specialist unit deployed in smaller numbers (stormtroopers, banshees, scouts, etc). Plus, it seems to be the most COMMON ap value for many armories- the imperium has autocannon, assault cannon, krak genades, heavy bolter, heavy flamer, to name a few. For most targets, ap 5 is plenty adequate, which makes ap4 redundant. Autocannon, for example are in a strange place here- a light vehicle/infantry killer. But vs most infantry targets, itll wound just as easily as a multilaser, but gets 1 less shot.

AP -

Why? Because even if you have high str, you get -1 on the damage chart for vehicles. Its use, therefore, is to either ID, or wound MCs.

Second least useful is AP 4. Most anti-elite weapons fielded are already AP 3 or 2 (Battlecannon, Plamas, Artillery, etc). It has its uses on some situations, like AP 4 hellhounds against a Tau force in cover is great.

Right, obviously ap- is the worst. After that I'd agree that Ap6 is the worst. Ap4 is still better than Ap5, though, as there ARE units that have Sv4, whether it's marine scouts, or tau firewarriors or guard stormtroopers/grenadiers or tyranid warriors, etc. Plus, Ap4 can also do anything that Ap5 can do, and thus is actually more useful.

I suppose I'd rank the usefulness of Ap's from least useful to most useful as...

-
6
5
4
3
2
1

In that order...

While it's pretty obvious that lower AP is always better than higher AP given equal S, I think the OP was trying to point out that AP5, AP3 and AP2 (arguably AP1 also) are better 'steps' than the others, and that AP4 is probably the worst of the 'steps' in terms of what you gain from the lowered AP as compared to the next highest, at least with regard to non-vehicles. Against vehicles of course, there are only three steps (AP -, APs 5-2, AP 1) and each is better than the last.

Meh, I don't really think so. Take a bolter v. heavy bolter as the prime example.

The heavy bolter with its better Ap is able to force some units that don't need cover saves into cover. Plus, when you can get them out of cover through other means, you just straight up gun them down. Does what Ap5 does, but against a wider range of targets.

Meanwhile, you also get +1S, which means now you can take down AV10 vehicles, which is a pretty friggin long shot with a bolter, given that you have to do it by glancing to death.

In this case, the heavy bolter gives you two new target types to be effective against, and also makes you slightly better against other things (like monstrous creatures, termies, etc.)

That doesn't sound like a bad step to me.

Plus, look at it this way. If you had the option to swap all of your infantry models' small arms out for a heavy bolter, would you do it?

There's actually a fair amount of 4+ armor in the game, but most of it is in the form of upgrades and do to the over saturation of AP4 weapons, those points become wasted so people tend not to take them.

it's not a useless step, it's just not as generally useful as the move from AP6 to AP5. Far more units have SV5+ than 4+. I'm not (and I don't think the OP is) saying that AP4 is not better than AP5, just that it doesn't give the 'boost' to fire that AP6 to AP5 does or AP4 to AP3 does because of the foes commonly encountered.

Amaya wrote:There's actually a fair amount of 4+ armor in the game, but most of it is in the form of upgrades and do to the over saturation of AP4 weapons, those points become wasted so people tend not to take them.

Well, that and cover saves are free and don't care about your silly AP.

Exactly. Ap5 is significantly better than ap6, but then ap4 isnt proportionally better.

I didnt rate ap- as being that horrible because other than lasguns most ap- weapons seem to be str6, which is high enough to hurt monstrous creatures (which will either have such a good save or an invulnerable one).

Ap3 is the best in my opinion because killing MEQs tends to be cost effective and few units have a 2+

Hey, the Heavy Bolters on my speeders came in handy when I faced a mob of 'ard Boyz. Heavy Bolters came in handy. It would as well on games with objectives against Firewarriors, Veterans, etc.

Surprised no one's mentioned Necrons yet... basic troops now have 4+

Flashman wrote:Surprised no one's mentioned Necrons yet... basic troops now have 4+

I thought the new cool thing was to use Immortals now that they are troops choices.

Ailaros wrote:Right, obviously ap- is the worst. After that I'd agree that Ap6 is the worst. Ap4 is still better than Ap5, though, as there ARE units that have Sv4, whether it's marine scouts, or tau firewarriors or guard stormtroopers/grenadiers or tyranid warriors, etc. Plus, Ap4 can also do anything that Ap5 can do, and thus is actually more useful.

I suppose I'd rank the usefulness of Ap's from least useful to most useful as...

-
6
5
4
3
2
1

In that order...

Looks right to me. Haven't really figured out why people say ap 4 guns suck. It's better then al 5 and worse then ap 3

Flashman wrote:Surprised no one's mentioned Necrons yet... basic troops now have 4+

Almost anyone who knows what they are doing runs Immortals because of the 3+ save and better weapons.

Looks right to me. Haven't really figured out why people say ap 4 guns suck. It's better then al 5 and worse then ap 3

I'm not certain anyone's saying they 'suck' (I'm certainly not). Just that, for various reasons, the 'jump' from AP5 to AP4 is less valuable than the other jumps for equivalent S weapons (which to be honest is a pretty simple thing to grasp). Mind you, part of that is because cover saves are 4+ too and it's often the case that units will be in cover.

Almost anyone who knows what they are doing runs Immortals because of the 3+ save and better weapons.

I'm not so sure that's true, actually. But it's a good point that Necrons are one of the few armies where 4+ armour can be commonplace.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:i I'm not saying that AP4 is not better than AP5, just that it doesn't give the 'boost' to fire that AP6 to AP5 does or AP4 to AP3 does because of the foes commonly encountered.

Jerjare wrote:Exactly. Ap5 is significantly better than ap6, but then ap4 isnt proportionally better.

I hate to say it, but so what?

GW is under no obligation to make the cascading benefit of Ap smooth and even. All they need to do is to make it balanced. I'd note that the drop from Ap5 to 4 might not be as good as 6 to 5, but I'd also note that a vast majority of Ap4 weapons come for free with their carriers (or are very cheap upgrades). Sounds like it's priced appropriately.

If anything, we should be complaining about Ap3 weapons. The utility may be quite a jump relative to Ap4, but I'd argue that in a big majority of cases, the utility cost is way overpriced compared to that relative quality jump. While the cost from Ap5 to 4 is relative to the advantage, the price factored in for the Ap3 of 1ksons or the price of Ap3 for stormtroopers or the price of Ap3 on a banewolf seems like you're not getting what you're paying for nearly as much.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Right, obviously ap- is the worst. After that I'd agree that Ap6 is the worst. Ap4 is still better than Ap5, though, as there ARE units that have Sv4, whether it's marine scouts, or tau firewarriors or guard stormtroopers/grenadiers or tyranid warriors, etc. Plus, Ap4 can also do anything that Ap5 can do, and thus is actually more useful.

I suppose I'd rank the usefulness of Ap's from least useful to most useful as...

-
6
5
4
3
2
1

In that order...

Looks right to me. Haven't really figured out why people say ap 4 guns suck. It's better then al 5 and worse then ap 3

But there arent nearly as many targets with a 4+ save. Even armies whose basic troop is 4+ seldom take them in great numbers because of all the ap4 weapons. Ap5 is fine for GEQ as there is no shortage of troops with a 5+ save. So ap4 doesnt give you much more utility.

GW is under no obligation to make the cascading benefit of Ap smooth and even

Nor should they. I've no problem with AP4 being the least useful 'jump' in AP. I was just saying that I think the OP was merely trying to point out that it probably is, and I agree. If you say, 'ah but it's better than AP5', then I agree with that too (as I think I made fairly clear).

I suppose the point might be best made by comparing what would happen if all AP4 weaponry was made AP5 (some moaning but generally shrugging) as opposed to all AP3 being made AP4 (I suspect widespread wailing and gnashing of teeth).

There is usually an opportunity cost attached to an AP value. Eg the same gun with AP4 will cost more than that same gun with AP5.

That's an assumption on part of the OP. Stop trolling him and exercise your critical thinking skills.

AP3 can be frustrating too. Ask space wolves who get terminators or oblits dropped on their flank.

In general every list needs balanced AP available. While bringing 8 devestator lascannons and 4 plasma cannon would be lovely, points wise thats prohibitive and that list will fail against hordes most likely.

To answer the question, its more a question of cost vs rate of fire vs ap, it an assault cannon AP4 is a far scarier prospect than a single lascannon to most infantry, even without the rend. If its on a single shot basis then no AP, then 6 and so on.

When you look at the AP value of weapons its hard to ignore other characteristics of the weapons that commonly have that AP. AP1 is by far the best though, since it is the only AP value that gets you a bonus against vehicles and it goes through any infantry save.

Given the importance of vehicles and the abundance of cover in 5th the difference in value between AP2 right through to AP6 in comparison is fairly small. It mostly just effects how much your army needs to stay in cover. AP2 isn't particularly helpful, as almost everything that gets used in a semi competitive environment that has 2+ armour has a decent invulnerable as well. AP2 and AP3 both keep medium infantry in cover but tend to be low RoF since they are usually medium anti tank weapons as well.

Once you drop to AP4 you are usually an anti infantry or anti light vehicle weapon. Ignoring other factors it sticks out from other AP values as filling a rather small niche, since it usually lacks the RoF to scare large amounts of infantry and doesn't have the strength to threaten medium vehicles. However AP4 weapons probably have the highest proportion of special rules attached to them, the Assault Cannon (with Rending, making it a good tank hunter and medium infantry killer) and Heavy Flamer (ignores cover so it toasts any light infantry it touches) being the two most obvious examples.

AP5 and 6 are purely anti light infantry weapons, they are still helpful in large numbers but in general anything with a 5+ or 6+ save is going to be hugging cover all the time anyway and quite possibly bringing it with them (KFF etc).

On paper AP - is by far the worst, since it doesn't punch through anything and gets the -1 on the damage chart. In general through not much has AP - in the first place, against infantry it isn't much worse than AP5 or 6 (cover saves most of the time anyway) and not much has AP - and a high enough Strength to hurt vehicles in the first place (Necrons being the obvious exception due to the number of hits they can generate + arcing).

zeekill wrote:

Flashman wrote:Surprised no one's mentioned Necrons yet... basic troops now have 4+

Almost anyone who knows what they are doing runs Immortals because of the 3+ save and better weapons.

Might be the worst/least informed comment I've seen in some time.

My knee jerk was AP 4 but...

Its best representatives are Psycannons. High STR, High ROF, Rending and an "elite/vehicle killer". Dual Auto-Cannon Dreads and IG Hydras are also an awesomew AP 4 system but only because of their upgrade possibility and/or TL status. Normal Autocannons aren't my fav.

Outside of this truly awesome weapons, the Eldar missile Launcher is kind of interesting for its versatility. At AP 4 Pinning small blast, its quite a bit more dangerous than a normal missile launcher.

Manticore StormEagles are great against multiwound unitsand at AP 4, they actually kind of are able to take advantage of that against a lot of swarms, Tau, Space Wolf Scouts, Storm Troopers, Orc Ard Boyz, and softer targets but also Tyranid Warriors and the like that have 4+ armor.

Necrons have added a whole new usefulness to AP 4 weapons actually and that should not be overlooked. Tau and Necrons have a lot of this.

I'm fairly sure that i nthe mech heavy world of 40K, right now a gun with no AP, regardless of STR is not really a preferential weapon unless you can bring a LOT of shots to bear. My Warp Spider army is a pretty terrific performer but it struggles to pop vehicles unless deep strikes are dead on and thats a big if. When the dice Gawds are i ncharge, Im not comfy. So AP - weapons probably hold the highest amount if wild card status and therefore are maybe a weakER choice but not necessarily a WEAK choice

AP-
negative on the vehicle chart? does not ignore any armor? The worst.

If I gave you a choice of 5 guns-
Assault 1 12" range AP-
Assault 1 12" range AP5
Assault 1 12" range AP4
Assault 1 12" range AP3
Assault 1 12" range AP2
Assault 1 12" range AP1

Which would you choose?

But to answer the OP's question- Yes, AP4 is the "worst". AP5/6 weapons you think "at least its not AP-" and you can ignore most GEQ armor saves. AP3/2/1 are highly valuable as well, since they are you MEQ killers, and TEQ killers for AP1&2
But AP4 sits in the odd spot- doesn't ignore MEQ/TEQ armor, but ignores GEQ armor. It's the fault of marines, if anyone/thing is to blame. Because of how common MEQ's are (for a variety of reasons- 6 codices are nothing BUT marines), AP3 and below has a high value. AP4 is still valuable- necrons, marine scouts, eldar aspect warriors, carapace armor etc... H.flamers/assault cannons/etc etc still have their place.

AP 6 and AP 4 occupy niche spots but are found on plenty of useful weapon systems

Ap 5 seems to offer the best balance between killing power and cost (judging by the costs of the models that have it and their capabilities)

People seem to be thinking the AP value of a weapon is determining the value of the weapon.
I'd suggest some quick math of comparing boltgun marines to shoota marines (as in giving marines ork shootas instead). You might be surprised at the difference

To answer the question briefly:
The least useful AP value must be the one that doesn't suit the situation at hand properly.

I'd suggest some quick math of comparing boltgun marines to shoota marines (as in giving marines ork shootas instead). You might be surprised at the difference

Nice one.

@Ailaros

The heavy bolter with its better Ap is able to force some units that don't need cover saves into cover. Plus, when you can get them out of cover through other means, you just straight up gun them down. Does what Ap5 does, but against a wider range of targets.

Meanwhile, you also get +1S, which means now you can take down AV10 vehicles, which is a pretty friggin long shot with a bolter, given that you have to do it by glancing to death.

In this case, the heavy bolter gives you two new target types to be effective against, and also makes you slightly better against other things (like monstrous creatures, termies, etc.)

That doesn't sound like a bad step to me.

Plus, look at it this way. If you had the option to swap all of your infantry models' small arms out for a heavy bolter, would you do it?

Lets keep the example more fitting:

Would you upgrade your boltguns AP from 5 to 4 for +1 point each? I wouldnt...

@topic

The thing is, general cover is 4+ so everything from ap4 to ap- has close to 0 difference in shooting performance. AP3 starts to be important because it basically shifts the MEQ save down from 3+ to 4+. AP2 is even better because it shifts the TEQ save from 2+ to 4+.

AP- though has issues with vehicles although the strength normally isnt that high.
AP1 is of course gold against vehicles.

I would rate it like that (if only the AP is taken into account):

AP- -> worst
AP6-AP4 -> almost equal in worth and quite meaningless
AP3 -> good
AP2 -> very good
AP1 -> outstanding

But as Jihallah said, strength, number of shots and usability comes first.

AP3 isn't nearly as good as people think. It means marines take a 4+ cover save instead of 3+ armour save. You're nearly always better off just spamming them with wounds.
AP2 is golden though, obviously.

Doesn´t it almost always depend on what you think you´ll probably face?
I mean, I normally don´t like HB´s because they´re somewhat less then exciting against the MEQ´s I usually face, but against Necrons, Orks or Eldar (Dark and otherwise) they ´re much more useful. Like most things in WH40K, it comes down to the metagame mostly, I´d say.

Also, not only points costs but also access to weapons vary wildly between armies...for example, I usually play CSM´s and taking a HB robs me of the chance of taking some more useful weapon, and taking another squad of something to grab it is very costly.
On the other hand, when I tried dabbling with GK´s, that henchmen-squad with 10 HB-Servitors I placed with Coteaz put the fear of the Emperor into my opponent while hardly limiting my access to better weapons.