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How do you maximize Khan's furious charge and outflank @2000 points

Khan w/ moondrakken
205

Bike 1x8 w/ pw, plasmagun x2

Librarian w/ bike, avenger, force dome
135

Bike 1x7 w/ pf, meltagun x2

Command 1x5 w/ bikes, plasmaguns x4
265

Bike 4x6 w/ pw, meltagun x2, attack bike w/ multi-melta


I figure the 4 bike squads w/ meltas go after vehicles/monstrous creature, the command targets MEQ, termies, MC's as needed, and the IC's go with the big bike squads to assault MEQ footsloggers after outflanking.
What does dakka think? Need advice to list build competitively. Thanks

Althoug I have rather limited experience with SM, I do think it is an okay list

After all, you don't have any Heavy Support and it isn't seemly to camp out on objectives with bikes.

White Scars generally take Rhinos with Tac. Marines for objective holding

Bike lists are tricky to play with and against. Not really uber competative but perfectly able to give anyone trouble if they don't know how to handle it. You have the right tools but personaly I like MSU sized units (4 bikes 1 attack bike), this leaves points for things like riflemen dreads and autolas preds which you want to use to pop transports so your bikes can shoot at the things inside.

@Decio
From what I have seen the bike squads are used to capture objectives toward end of game by turbo-boosting onto them. I do not plan on camping, but I see your point about tac's.

@Pony_Law
see above for the reason for the larger squads. Advice I got on optimum bike squad size was 5-6 (including attack bike) to provide some protection to the melta bikes. If I take a bike off each squad, I can get one dread or one pred. Is it worth decreasing the squad size for just one of these? I wanted to keep at least one bike squad full strength for Khan and his furious charge. If I knock all the squads down, I can get 2 dreads or 2 preds. Rifle dreads seem better as they can walk on outflanking getting side shots with full effect.

_______________________________________________
The original list was designed to have the four melta/multi-melta sguads tank hunt and the two big suqads with the HQ's go after any objectives with "campers" on them. The command squad was the swing unit that could either target armor of the squads that come out after getting melta. Anything left over at end of game turbo boost to any uncovered objectives. Also, the larger squad sizes make KP missions more manageable.

rynnsguard wrote:Khan w/ moondrakken
205

Bike 1x8 w/ pw, plasmagun x2

Librarian w/ bike, avenger, force dome
135

Bike 1x7 w/ pf, meltagun x2

Command 1x5 w/ bikes, plasmaguns x4
265

Bike 4x6 w/ pw, meltagun x2, attack bike w/ multi-melta:

There are a number of things I would suggest changing
* Power swords suck on bikes because you don't have an extra CC. Give them a PF, so their not losing an attack over normal marines
* Command squads with PGs I don't think are worth thier cost. You will find that it gets shots to bits very quickly in today's meta.
* Null zone is one of the best psychic powers in the game. Every librarian should have it.
* Your army will have big problems with armor. Sure you can move forward and crack razorback spam, but the units inside will pour out and melta/PG/assault you. Bikes need long range support.

To summarize "Pure bike lists are not competitive". To make something competitive, go with a long/short approach. I wrote a long tactical army on bike armies here.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/447870.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Decio wrote:After all, you don't have any Heavy Support and it isn't seemly to camp out on objectives with bikes.

Bike armies don't need to camp objectives. As I mentioned in the article linked above, you put objective in the middle of the open, and just turbo-boost onto them on turns 5-7. Bikes bring their own cover with them!

Decio wrote:White Scars generally take Rhinos with Tac. Marines for objective holding

Why would you take a captain on a bike, which unlocks a great troop choice, and then replace them with the worst MEQ troop choice in the game?

No. If you are worries about an objective in cover, then run a squad of outflanking scouts in a reserved storm.

@labmouse42
Thanks for the link. The squad sizes you list echo the advice I got for optimal bike squad size and explained to me almost verbatum. I have been debating the captain vs. Khan choice. Do you generally place your bikes in reserve? I don't have enough experience playing against this type of list to make more than simply a judgement call on using the list. The benefit of outflanking means I can get shots off straight away from deployment on side/rear armor as opposed to turbo boosting for a turn up the flanks from my deployment edge and shooting after my opponent reacts. I see spearhead as the only deployment that doesn't benefit from outflanking so much. Do you advocate Khan or just a plain captain? Also, what point levels were those lists in your pictures? They seemed to have a lot of bikes and at least 5 longrange support units.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

How does this measure up to the long/short list build?

@2000 points

Captain w/ bike, relic blade
155

Librarian w/ bike, avenger/null zone
135

Bike1x9 w/ pf, meltagun x2, MM attack bike (I will combat squad this most likely to have the pf sarge + 4 bikes go with the captain and libby)
310

Bike 4x6 w/ pf, meltagun x2, MM attack bike
940

Dread x2 w/ auto x2
250

Pred w/ auto-las
120

LS Typhoon
90

This gives me a solid 5 objective grabbing units consisting of 29 bike models PLUS a sixth hth scoring unit of 7 bikes. I have 4 long range units that can reserve and fire downfield 48" when they enter 6".
Will it be enough to compensate for not outflanking?

rynnsguard wrote:Do you advocate Khan or just a plain captain?

I go with a normal captain 90% of the time. In a 2500 point game, I find that Khan can be really nice as you can bring enough forces outflanking to cause serious havoc. In lower point games its just not really worth it.

rynnsguard wrote:Do you generally place your bikes in reserve?

It depends on the army I'm playing. When playing fast assault armies, like BW orks, going in reserve is a horrible idea, as they will be on your table edge on turn 2. When facing heavy shooty armies, going in reserve can be a very good thing, as it lowers the number of turns you can be shot. A lot of it also depends on the board's cover. If I'm pretty sure I can get good cover, I'll just deploy on the board.

If your going to build a reserve denial list, make sure that as much as possible can move onto the board and fire. This means dreads, speeders, land raiders and predators. No thunderfire cannons, or devastators. Recently, due to more GK players, I've been shfiting to using more empty redeemers and bare bones predators for my heavy choices. They provide mobile LOS blocking for bikes, and are tough to destory with STR 8 fire.

rynnsguard wrote:The benefit of outflanking means I can get shots off straight away from deployment on side/rear armor as opposed to turbo boosting for a turn up the flanks from my deployment edge and shooting after my opponent reacts

When you conga-line and are turbo-boosting, you lose minimal forces in the first turn of shooting. Take, for example, 15 long fangs. 10 will hit, 8 will wound, and you can expect to save 5-6 of those, resulting is a loss of 2-3 models.

rynnsguard wrote:Also, what point levels were those lists in your pictures? They seemed to have a lot of bikes and at least 5 longrange support units.

There are a lot of different army lists there. Here is what I use for competitive play.
* 1000 pts -3 bike squads
* 1500 pts - 3 bike squads
* 1750 pts - 3-4 bike squads
* 2000 pts - 4 bike squads
* 2500 pts - 4 bike squads (larger numbers in each)

rynnsguard wrote:How does this measure up to the long/short list build?

To many bikes. Bikes have a big ass footprint on the board. When you string 6-7 of them together, you can really make a very large footprint. This means that you don't want to use 5 squads in 2000 points. You literally won't have room to move in and take shots.

* Often, when I'm looking to save points, Ill just replace a PF seargent with the captain/librarin. They both can serve the same role -- of making hte squad beefier in assault, and I can save the 25 points. Just a thought

* I find PGs are better than MGs in my squads. I will bring 4 squads of bikes in a 1750 list. 3 of them will be PG and 1 MG. The reason is the targets for MG. A squad with 2 MG and 1 MM is excellent at penetrating heavy armor. Your going to make sure that LR, LRBT, or predator is out of commission. Today though, you just don't see that many high armor targets. People are spamming AV11/12 through razorbacks or chimeras.

So lets look at what the PG/MM squad can threaten.
- The MM rolls 2d6 to penetrate wtihin 12", which is a threat to any tank.
- 4 STR 7 shots are extremely good at destroying AV10/11, which is the sides of chimeras or razorbacks
- PF assaults on the rear of armor. This is even more effective if your blocking all exits to the vehicle with your bikes
- 5 AP 1/2 shots on MEQ, and another 8 TL bolter shots.
That's quite a bit of flexability and punch in one squad. Given the type of armor you see on the game today, they are actually better at handling it.
So in a 2k list, ill bring 3 PG squads and 1 MG squad.

@labmouse
YOU THE MAN!

Thanks for the insight and your indepth advice. Very helpful.

I am getting excited about the build. I have two thought processes from your response and my play style.

@2000 points

**the base build**
Captain w/ bike, relic blade
165
Bike 3x6 w/ pf, plasmagun x2, MM attack bike
735
Bike 1x9 w/ pf, meltagun x2, MM attack bike
310

WHAT TO ADD?
Master of the Forge w/ bike, conversion beemer, combi-plasma
165
Dread x5 w/ t-l auto x2
625

HOW ABOUT THIS?
Kantor
175
Term Assault 1x7 w/ th & ss
320
LR Crusader
250
Pred w/ auto-las
120

I love the MOTF/5 dread idea linked with the bike squads. I would want to put some of those dreads in drop-pods though to get them close and take the heat away from the bike squads early on.

Personally I'm more interested in the first list instead of the second. You can get by without CC elements at the 2k point level. At 2500 you will need to move up to a TH/SS termie squad in a raider.

You don't want to pod in long range dreads. Bringing 5 of them is a lot of firepower, and will tear up AV 11 spam like nobody's buisness. Personally I like dreads more than preds, for the following reasons.
* The weapons sit higher, making it easy to hide in cover and still get shots off
* You can move and fire all the weapons
* The small base makes it hard to land blast templates on it, as its very easy to deviate off the model.
* The small footprint means your much less vulnerable to enemy shooting.
Sure, psydreads are better, but 20 STR 7 shots that his 8/9 of the time is nothing to sneeze at.
If you can make it happen, giving a few of them some TL/LC's would help. Simply put, there are some targets where those LCs are better -- like AV 13 vehicles, or paladins, etc.

I'm guessing your idea is to combat squad your 9 man squad and use the conversion beamer to snipe. In that case, a HB is just as good at the MM, as your never going to be within 24" anyway, unless you just have 10 points to spare. I do like the idea of a constant threat of a STR 10, AP1, BS 5 gun -- especially when you can move 12" and fire that gun.
Given the number of players now bringing stormravens to the party, its quite strong. The more I think of the idea the more I like it.

Also - your replace the bolter with a beamer. You cannot replace your bolter with a combi-plas. You get one or the other.


* Edit : I like your MotF concept so much, I added it to my bike guide. I think you are really onto something there.

Your list with MoTF is good. Very good, in fact. My only sticking point is that you are utterly ineffective in combat, where you WILL eventually find yourself. THat many bikes is impossible to keep out of combat over 5 or 6 turns.

Maybe 3 riflemen and 2 podding mm/powerfist dreads?

Playtest it and see what you find.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Your list with MoTF is good. Very good, in fact. My only sticking point is that you are utterly ineffective in combat, where you WILL eventually find yourself. THat many bikes is impossible to keep out of combat over 5 or 6 turns.

Maybe 3 riflemen and 2 podding mm/powerfist dreads?

Playtest it and see what you find.

Even when I play vs. assault armies, my dreads are rarely assaulted. They are sometimes hit by outflanking units, or extremely fast moving units like screamers/Mephiston, but in 4/5 of my games their only damage comes from shooting.

You see, what happens if your bikes are up front utilizing their short/medium range shooting, while your back line is taking out transports or armor. In order to get to your back line for assault, the enemy must get through your bikes first. In every case I've every played, armies like BW orks would rather assault my bikes than try and drive past them to get at my dreads. This makes perfect sense, as why would anyone want to open their AV 10 rear to PG/MM shots? The only models that will move past your bikes to assault back lines are things like screamers or demo vets from an outflanking vendetta.

Podding in dreads won't really help much either. Sure they get one MM shot, but afterwords their going to be shot by MGs. You see, bikes are highly resistant to MGs. Generally when your shot by them, you have turbo-boosted and your getting a 3+ cover save. MG's just don't deliver enough shots to cause serious problems, which is why bike armies tend to roll over IG. Now if you drop pod in some dreads, all those MGs which were previously near useless have a very good target.

The other challange is that C:SM dreads just are not that hot in assault, unlike their BA dread counterparts. Sure, you can squish 1-3 models a turn, but that means that it takes a long time to get through 10 MEQ. If that MEQ has a power fist, there is a reasonable chance that the dread will die too.
The best counter-assault unit for bike armies is TH/SS termies in a LR. At 2500 point games, this is critical, as you will face the CC element. In lower point games, I have gotten by with just a captain and PF bike squads.

As always YMMV. You might be playing in a meta where assault armies are commonplace.

Not sure why you'd use bikes as a shield for dreads and then turbo boost them every turn so they never get to shoot. At some point, you want to stop moving so fast and actually fire their special weapons. They then don't get a cover save the next turn. I would use dreads to drop in mid-ground at the same point where the bikes will turbo boost to. The units then support each other rather than working in isolation. The bikes are more than able to open transports themselves, it's CC specialists and hordes they have trouble with which is where the dreads can help.

Ultimately though the bike army is a finesse army and there is no real right answer as to what to take in the support choices as there in say a Vulkan list. Play the list, see what works for you. It might be different to other preferences on here and therefore not necessarily a wrong choice, only a different choice.

ruminator wrote:Not sure why you'd use bikes as a shield for dreads and then turbo boost them every turn so they never get to shoot.

2/3 of the missions are objective based missions and not KP missions. If you turbo-boost around until the bottom of 5, then start turbo'ing onto objectives, you win. I have beaten multiple leafblower lists against highly skilled players with this strategy, and it works.

ruminator wrote:At some point, you want to stop moving so fast and actually fire their special weapons.

There are times you wish to do this. Its part of the 'water strategy' that I talk about in my guide.

ruminator wrote:I would use dreads to drop in mid-ground at the same point where the bikes will turbo boost to.

Respectfully, I don't think you get what bike armies are all about. You don't try and hold mid-field as bikes. You are fluid and move your army to whatever is required. Take the following image. In this game, the GK player shoved a stormraven with his deathstar down my throat.



Instead of trying to defeat his deathstar, I just boosted my bikes to the other side of the board and shot down his stormraven with my supporting units. His deathstar spend the rest of the game holding that center objective in the ruins. I spent the rest of the game taking the other 4 objectives.

That's how you play bikes. Your army is a fluid, fast one and needs to be utilized as such. By podding in units mid-field, you pin yourself to those units. You can't just flow and strike another target. Its the same reason you don't see Mech'dar players playing with large guardian squads mid board.
Bike armies are very unlike regular marine armies in that they are not designed to just duke it out mid-field. As a bike army, your most important phase in the game is the movement phase. Your correct that your units must support themselves, but podding mid-field is not the best way to do it.
(As a side note, pods also cause a lot of difficult terrain for bikes, as they have a large footprint. This prevents turbo-boosting and causes unwanted casualities to your own forces. Place 3 pods in the center of a terrained table and see how much room you have to move around)

ruminator wrote:The bikes are more than able to open transports themselves, it's CC specialists and hordes they have trouble with which is where the dreads can help.

I used to think like that when I started a bike army. I rapidly learned that was not the best way to play. While there are a few cases where the transport is the main threat, such a 3 henchmen in a razorback, the majority of the time you will have problems if your shooting up the transport.

Let me give an example. Take a PG vet IG squad that has 6 PG shots. You wreck their chimera, and they bail out outside of your assault range. On the next turn your vulnerable as your no longer turbo-boosted, and you lose 4 bikes to PG shots.
Here is another example. You have just shot down a razorback and 6 grey hunters pour out. On their turn they shoot and kill 1 bike, then assault your squad. Sure, with your PF you eventually kill them, but not until your bike squad has been tied up for a few critical turns. If the grey hunters have a PF, then your losing bikes with every hit. When your trading 25 point models for 15 point models its a losing game.
Trust me. This happens. That's why cracking transports at range is so critical. If you take those 2 examples and show the bikes attacking the models inside, the bikes crush the unit.

ruminator wrote:It might be different to other preferences on here and therefore not necessarily a wrong choice, only a different choice.

Agreed. My suggestions come from playing a competitive bike army for a few years. My strategies have changed since I started, and are still evolving today to deal with the current meta. Your meta with your bikes at your FLGS might be different.
This is what I would bring in an 1850 dread/bike list

1850 Dread List List
The goal of this list is to utilize dreadnoughts as fire support. Dreads have a number of significant advantages over predators that can be exploited. In this army, the first bike squad takes advantage of combat squads. The MotF joins the squad with the HB, and uses them to absorb shots as he sits back at max range and uses his conversion beamer. The PF and 2 MGs in the other combat squad are there for tank hunting.

Instead of a 5th dread, I take advantage of the 2 slots to bring two predators to the board. Its slightly cheaper than a single dual AC dread. While I lose the TL of the guns, I gain the abilty to saturate the board with more armor, and the ability to target different units.

Two of the dreads are sporting TL LC and a ML. This is to give a little variety to the firepower. While sometimes you want to have more STR 7 shots, having some STR 9 AP2 shots are also nice for variety.

HQ
Captain w/bike, artificer armor, storm shield
MotF w/conversion beamer, bike

Troops
Bike squad, 9 bikes, 2 MG, HB attack bike, PF
Bike squad, 7 bikes, 2 PG, MM attack bike, PF
Bike squad, 7 bikes, 2 PG, MM attack bike, PF

Elite
Dread with dual TL/AC
Dread with dual TL/AC
Dread with TL LC and ML

Heavy
Dread with TL LC and ML
Predator
Predator

a quick question; what would you do if an IG player had the first turn and played defensive with artillery?

Do you mean Manticores? Or do you mean colossus?

@labmous42 - In your Dread/Bike list, where do you usually play your captain? Do you plan to put him with a specific squad, or just take him where he needs to be?

Not sure about need for captain with both artificer and stormshield. That's a lot of points there.

I would also question need for power fists in a bike squad. You don't want them in CC really. Maybe a few melta bombs for dreads?

I like drop-pod dreads as it gets them to hold the mid-board not the bikes. The dreads and bikes merely meet there at T2 and the bikes then go where the best targets are. I will generally have shot my special weapons T2 or T3 which is maybe why our lists would differ. Seems a bit of a points sink buying the special weapons and then not shooting them until T5. At toughness 5 and with a 3+ armour save the cover save ability is only going to be an issue if the opponent is shooting AP2/AP3 weapons at the bikes and really I expect them to be shooting lascannons and missiles at the dreads.

But that's the fun of bike lists. Versatility.

A guy at my local store ran a list kind of like this. He ran the 3 Dreads in Drop Pods and a Relic Blade/Storm Shield Captain. Rest was Bikers..lots and lots of them. It also had Telion and a Scout squad. At 2k it had 2 dreads and 1 squad of Sternguard. It won a lot of games until the guy switched armies when the new Necrons came out.

I plan on practicing this list in my 1850 league in preparation for the 2000 point GT in June.

I will be playing a necron list so I am seeking any advice from experienced bike army dakkaites on how to approach them. Thanks.I have this list so far, league starts next week.

@1845

Captain w/ bike, relic blade
165
MotF w/ bike, conversion beemer
155
Bike 1x9 w/ pf, plasmagunx2, attack bike w/ MM
310
Bike 2x6 w/ pf, plasmagun x2, attack bike w/ MM
490
Dread x5 w/ t-l auto x2
625
Scout 1x5 w/ camo cloaks, sniper rifles x4, ML
100

Strategy: scout will go into bolstered ruin to hold objective in cover in my deployment, bike x9 will combat squad with captain and MotF. Dreads will transport hunt.

Do you know anything about the Necron list? Is it wraithwing, a scarab farm, AV 13 wall, etc?

Not sure if the list will change. From what I saw it seems balanced: two big squads of immortals, two lords, royal court with the solar pulse x2, triarch stalker, barge, 3 wraiths and some scratch built stuff that looked like single manned skimmers, maybe tomb blades. Also, it had two tomb spyders and a small squad of scarabs.

* Hes going to use his solar pulse's to block your shooting. Your counter to this are searchlights. I would suggest putting 2 dreads up so they can searchlight for 2 turns. Expect them to die, its just the way of the game.

* Go ahead and shoot/assault his squad of immortals with all your bike squads and captain. Make sure to put a normal biker in base with any mindshackle scarab lords. With a 12" move, this should not be that hard. Your goal is to win the combat by so much that you break the squad in 1 round. Rinse and repeat with his other squad. His best bet to avoid getting stomped by your fast moving bikes is to hide in a ghost ark.

* Mind his wraiths. They move fast and will tear up your bikes or vehicles. 3 of them are fairly vulnerable to massed bolter fire.

* Conversion beam his stalker. Remember its open topped, so you get +2 on the damage roll with a MM. On a similar note, conversion beam his barge. These are large targets so you can scatter a few inches and still stay on target. Its easy to deviate off a command barge, its hard to deviate off a barge.

* HIs command barges will do serious damage to your dreads. He will fly over them and hit em. Your best bet is to MM that damn thing.

* His scarabs are fast and will hurt your dreads. They won't do jack to bikes, though he can tie up a squad by making more scrabs while you kill bases every turn.

This is why I went with two TL LC/ML dreads in my list. Sometimes you want that STR 9 LC over the STR 7 autocannons, and this is an example of when you need that hitting power.

labmouse42 wrote:* This is why I went with two TL LC/ML dreads in my list. Sometimes you want that STR 9 LC over the STR 7 autocannons, and this is an example of when you need that hitting power.

I spent 105 on the scout squad to mainly sit in cover to take advantage of bolster defenses and free up my bikes to concentrate on objective grabbing away from my deployment zone. But the reality is that the combat squad bikes that go with the MotF can take care of my home objective since he will most likely be sniping from the back edge of my deployment. I could ditch the scouts, even though they would be a pain to my opponents, and use the points to upgrade 2 dreads with las-ML. But what to do with the 60 points left over?

Would it be prudent to deploy my entire dread force as far forward as possible to get shots off? Or should I just assault his big squads of immortals turn two with all of my bikes, and walk the dreads on from reserve after the solar pulses have expired to pick off anything not locked in combat?

If I don't upgrade the dreads, do you think a thunderfire cannon would be more effective than 5 scouts with sniper/ML? Can the bikes handle hordes by themselves?

rynnsguard wrote:But the reality is that the combat squad bikes that go with the MotF can take care of my home objective since he will most likely be sniping from the back edge of my deployment.

Ding! What you can do is put your 4 bikes in a ruins in a plus pattern. What your going for here is to maximize the footprint. Now, take your MotF and move him around the ruins outside. So long as your MotF stays within 2" of one of the other models, you are still in coherency. What this lets you do is to increase your abilility to line up shots.
If you have to move your MotF through ruins, thats fine. All ICs have skilled ride, so he has a 1/36 chance of wounding himself -- acceptable odds. The trick is to not move your other bikes and therefore they will not need to roll.
While you are doing this your squad enjoys the 3+ cover save. Feel free to put a dread or 2 in there as well if you have room so they can get a 3+ obscurement save.

rynnsguard wrote:I could ditch the scouts, even though they would be a pain to my opponents, and use the points to upgrade 2 dreads with las-ML. But what to do with the 60 points left over?

Bare bones predator! 60 points gets you an AV 13 vehicle on the table. Sure a single autocannon is not a lot, but there are a few good reasons to take one. I talk about the reasons here.
http://the11thcompany.freeforums.org/bare-bones-predators-t3580.html

rynnsguard wrote:Would it be prudent to deploy my entire dread force as far forward as possible to get shots off?

No. He can assault you with scarabs and wraiths, which will screw your dreads hard. Just deploy 2 of them forward so you can get the searchlights off. Your searchlight will direct your MotF's shot and the back line dreads.

rynnsguard wrote:Or should I just assault his big squads of immortals turn two with all of my bikes, and walk the dreads on from reserve after the solar pulses have expired to pick off anything not locked in combat?

If he has brought the storm lord, just reserve your entire army. Otherwise start with it all on the board. The fact is that necrons have very limited long range shooting, so your pretty safe.

rynnsguard wrote:If I don't upgrade the dreads, do you think a thunderfire cannon would be more effective than 5 scouts with sniper/ML? Can the bikes handle hordes by themselves?

Personally I've not had a problem with hordes. If someone brings 180+ orks, then one TFC is not going to do squat. Do you expect to see home horde players?

Played several games with the list and I am getting used to the dynamic. I have been playing too aggressively and got into trouble getting too close to the enemy shooting and assault. Toughness 5 is a big plus as is the conversion beemer

I am getting ready for a GT. Don'tfeel I am ready to compete in competitive environment as I am still learning the nuances of the list. I want to keep the list basic and redundant so I can recover from mistakes if I lose a unit. Here is what I am thinking, feedback and suggestions welcome. (thanks again to labmouse for the help)

@2000 points

Captain w/ bike, relic blade, combi-plasma, artificer armor
180

MotF w/ bike, conversion beemer
155

Bike 2x9 w/ combi-plasma & pf, plasmagun x2, attack bike w/ multi-melta
660

Bike 1x6 w/ combi-plasma & pf, plasmagun x2, attack bike w/ multi-melta
255

Dread x6 w/ t-l autocannon x2
750


I've been combat squadding the big bike squads and running the captain with the bike 1x6 to maximize the plasma shooting. It is deadly effective I have been fortunate and not lost too many bikes to gets hot so I decided to give my other sergeants combi also.

Powerfists have been pathetic I want to drop them to make that third bike squad 9 strong so I can combat squad the third multi-melta. Someone needs to talk me off the ledge or they will be gone

The MotF has been sniping from the board edge to great effect. So good in fact that I decided to drop my lascannon dread as it has not been that effective

I have been reserving my bikes and starting with just dreads and the MotF on the board. Seems to be effective, albeit limited games to stand firm on

In the back of my mind, I keep hearing the call of the wild to make my captain Khan to gain the outflank. Spearhead missions have been great as is because of the side shots. I can only imagine how effective it would be to outflank, but the red flag is the chance of splitting my forces on opposite board edges. The speed of the bikes alleviates some of the anxiety as I can turbo out of trouble.

Helpful feedback appreciated. Thanks.

* You have 3 bike squads. If your going to drop a PF, drop it from the captains squad -- as the relic blade fills the same role. Whats important here is you need to keep that threat in your squad. If you don't have any threat in your bike squad at all, then you will be rolled over in any assault.

* To get the most from your PG and combi-plas, you need to be within 12". If your within 12", your going to be assaulted. Thats why you should assault the turn you move forward.

* I really like the idea of combi-plas on the sergeants and the captain. Ill have to try that.

* I dig combat squading your first 9 man squad. Not so much on the second. Your losing that MM shot with your bikes. Let me explain what the problem is.
When you combat squad the MM, your getting 3 bikes + a MM attack bike. Your MM is best used vs tanks, so you have 1 really nice anti-armor shot combied with 3 bikes designed to shoot at infantry so your wasting those bolter shots. Your spending 75 points on bubble wrap for your MM. If your MM was twin linked, or had 2 shots, I could see that but its one single shot.

The other downside is that it weakens your other 5 man bike squad. Instead of having those extra 2 wounds, they are more fragile. The other thing is that it lowers the threat your bikes have on vehicles. Sure, STR 7 is nasty, but a MM next to someones tank always makes them panic.

Your combat MM squad also has -no- CC ability. They literally fold in assault. Let me explain. Lets take 6 BA assaulting from a razorback. They have 1 MG, 1 PF, and 4 dudes with CCW/BP. They will have 14 STR 4 attacks, 7 of which will hit your bike squad, and 2.3 wounds. That's less than one bike killed. The PF will swing 3 times, hit 1.5 times, and kill 1.2 bikes. The PF did over half the damage of the other attacks.
(the combat squad also has a LD of 8, which means they run a lot more often than the LD 9 seargent squad)

What does this mean? In an assault, a PF does the heavy lifting. If you assault with 1 PF in a squad plus one relic blade in your captain you will tear up a non-dedicated CC unit. Hell, even most CC units you will tear up if they just ate 14 AP2/1 shots to the face!
So drop one of your PFs where your captain goes, and keep the others as insurance. They let you threaten vehicles (as you can assault rear armor), they let you threaten MCs, and prevent dreads from tying you up indefinitely. Any squad that's going to be aggressive, (TAC or bike) needs a PF. By default bike squads are aggressive, as you can almost never sit back at 24" and trade shots.

* You know, I ran the math, and 5 scouts sitting in cover might be better for the MotF. He can only move 6" but hes still protected from return fire.

* Glad to hear that the 6 dreads are working for you.

* Have you used combat tactics yet?

* I'm still not a big fan of the reserve army thing with half your army not reserved. Let me explain why.
So when you reserve, your army comes in on the bottom of 2. This is a great thing, as it limits the turns you can be shot by 2. In a 6 turn game, that's literally 1/3 of the enemy shooting you just took away. Its awesome. It also gives you an extra round of shooting as you can shoot the turn you come in.

But -- when you start with half your army on the board, your saying "Hey, why don't we pit your entire army vs half of mine for a few rounds and lets see what happens". Sure, on some lists it works, but a leafblower will blow you away.

The thing is your dreads can reserve just fine too! They have a 48" range, and can shoot both guns when they come on.

* Try Khan a few times to see if you like it. With the new storm talon, I'm thinking of giving it a shot, as I really like how you can clump your reserves together. Its a shame the dreads can't outflank, but hey -- take what you can get.

* Finally. It takes a while to learn bikes. Its not an easy army to play. I've loaned my army to people and watched them get crushed. Its not that I'm some super player, its just that I'm familiar with my army. You play enough games with it, and you learn how to use it effectivly.

I agree about the attack bikes entourage being wasteful. Would the attack bikes as squadrons be redundant with all the dreads and are 15 bikes enough for troops?
Battle plan would be to reserve everything, shoot the transports and then shoot the contents with plasma.

Captain w/ bike
MotF w/ bike

Scouts 1x5 w/ sniper

Bike 3x5 w/ combi, plasma x2

Attack bike 3x2 w/ multimelta

Dread x6 w/ t-l auto x2


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree about the attack bikes entourage being wasteful. Would the attack bikes as squadrons be redundant with all the dreads and are 15 bikes enough for troops?
Battle plan would be to reserve everything, shoot the transports and then shoot the contents with plasma.

Captain w/ bike
MotF w/ bike

Scouts 1x5 w/ sniper

Bike 3x5 w/ combi, plasma x2

Attack bike 3x2 w/ multimelta

Dread x6 w/ t-l auto x2


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I agree about the attack bikes entourage being wasteful. Would the attack bikes as squadrons be redundant with all the dreads and are 15 bikes enough for troops?
Battle plan would be to reserve everything, shoot the transports and then shoot the contents with plasma.

Captain w/ bike
MotF w/ bike

Scouts 1x5 w/ sniper

Bike 3x5 w/ combi, plasma x2

Attack bike 3x2 w/ multimelta

Dread x6 w/ t-l auto x2