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Granted, we all know the need for a ringer...an army to fill in just in case you end up with an odd number of people who show.
With that, what type of list should the Ringer be playing (stupid list with every bad choice in the oldest Dex, Generic Space Marine list with no characters or upgrades, Or a rock hard Top Table at Adepticon list) and where should the Ringer be playing (top table, mid-field, last place guy)?
Had an event this weekend and the Ringer was playing:
GKs
Coteaz
Inq kitted out with Power Armor, Daemon Hammer and lots of Psychic powers.
2x Venerable Psiflemen Dreds
3x Psiflemen Dreds (yes 5!!! Psiflemen)
3x 5 DeathCult Assassins in Razorbacks (Psi-Bolt Heavy Bolters)...the 2 HQs went with 2 of these units.
2x 4 Acolytes in Razorbacks (Psi-bolt Heavy Bolters).

The Ringer won the 1st game, then got matched with me since I also won and was 2nd place with Battlepoints. The Ringer then pulled out a win on me (I immobilized my Land Raider on terrain trying to contest the far objective he was camped out on Then rolled 1s two turns in a row on LasCannons trying to blow up his other Razorback siting on another Objective...giving him a 2-1 win; out of 5 Objectives). Then someone dropped so the Ringer, having knocked 2 people off the top tables also dropped...meaning the other 3 unbeaten players did not have to face this Army, but played each other. In the end I came out 5th (2-1-1), but was left with a bad taste considering my only loss was to a rediculously beefy Ringer Army that 1st-4th didn't have to deal with.

So, is this the proper build and use of a Ringer Army or am I just being butt-hurt over this setup.
Or both...yeah, I can admit to being pretty ticked off about the situation.

Wrong forum.
TBH I hate the idea of a ringer list.
I can't think of a way to play it that someone's feelings don't get hurt.
Either it's a tough list played to its fullest, so people feel bad about losing, or it's a crappy list that isn't played well, so people who don't play it think they got gypped by not getting a free win.
I'd rather there be a bye really.

my personal favorite ringer lists are to use random FOC make ups.

I.e. the store puts down the models he has available and then roll to see what goes inside each slot then mashes things around till it's legal and right points with the first units to get in.

Tourney are really just random match ups. Sometimes it's an easy win when I get all the right matches and other times random dice showers me with opponents that do everything my list can't handle. Such is life. I say just enjoy the play experience. There's always another tourny and you may get the win because the other guy got "ringered" as it were.

generally ringers in a tournament should be playing tournament style lists...after all you are playing in a tournament. to me id rather play against a ringer with a tournament style list than be clubbing a baby seal or instead of just having 2.5 hours to just roam around and be bored off my butt.

if its a local event then i wouldnt mind as much but generally we get people in from all over the place at my LGS for events and have often had complaints of people driving hours to end up randomly getting a bye. granted they had the choice to play the ringer or the free time (most took the free time which i think is stupid) but still complained about it later

I would prefer to see a ringer list of a competitive build of an uncompetitive codex. (for example, a Tau list)

I would rather see a bye. Have a ringer list if the person wh gets the bye wants to play a game anyway, but have the results not count.


If you are going to run a ringer, they should be playing on the bottom of the field. They're there to pad out the field, not to win games.

Moving thread to Tournament forum.

Don't kill me just yet, got a noob question:

"What's a Ringer?"

We all have preferences of what we'd like to see, but often the TO doesn't have much choice. The guy volunteering to play the ringer army probably wants to use something he knows how to play. You want the army ready to go, with a list made. Not made up at the last second when you realize you've got an odd number of people. In the end, unless you're told, how would you know your opponent is the ringer unless you are told? Shouldn't matter a lot what list he brings, as long as it fits the range of what's in the tournament already.

The TO was playing the Ringer so in the end, even had he gone 4-0, everyone would have been bumped up 1 position.
His Army list was among the top 2 or 3 list-builds at the event, was being played to win, but then dropped out after the second round after someone else quit.
That is my beef...2 guys got knocked out of contention by an ace that the final top 4 didn't have to face.

Herr Dexter wrote:Don't kill me just yet, got a noob question:

"What's a Ringer?"

A stand-in to even out the number of players. Not actually a tournament entrant, often just one of the tournie judges jumping in to fill the slot without actually being in contention for the event.

It's an alternative to having a player each round miss out on playing a game.

The traditional meaning of "ringer" is a good player who doesn't belong to the team and has been included on the quiet to unfairly increase their chances. Can also apply to horses who have been substituted, etc.

The important point is that it is a form of cheating.

The "stand-in" role is what would normally be called "making up the numbers" and has a beneficial purpose.

My favorite 'ringer' army is Death Company Tycho, Death Company, Death Company Dreads. Drop pods/rhinos, whatever, but everything has rage!

Just had a fairly casual tournament this weekend. The TO brought 3 extra armies and acted as a "ringer" in this sense to even the lists out.

Since he had 3 armies ready, he let his opponent pick which army he/she wanted to face.

To the best of my knowledge, after the first round, he squared off against the lowest rank person. For the first round matchups, his main focus was to keep people from players they faced regularly so they could face a new army.

I thought this method worked fairly well. As for the situation by the OP, I can understand why you are upset, but such is the nature of this style of tournament. Unless you have a true bracket system (ala March madness), you face the possibility of your top 3 finishers all being undefeated (especially in a field of 32+).

To what end ?

I mean , if its a To and there are benifits in winning what is the point?

It brings bad feelings , either by loosing out or even winning !
(did you realllly win or did they throw the game and all the guf that brings)

Like others - a bye would be more suited.


if you really MUST use a standin (please stop using ringer) then they should be the bottom set, and bog standard.

they are padding at the end of the day

Tauzor wrote:To what end ?

I mean , if its a To and there are benifits in winning what is the point?

It brings bad feelings , either by loosing out or even winning !
(did you realllly win or did they throw the game and all the guf that brings)

Like others - a bye would be more suited.


if you really MUST use a standin (please stop using ringer) then they should be the bottom set, and bog standard.

they are padding at the end of the day

OK, stand-in. Who is not eligible to win any prizes, regardless of how well he or she does. Nobody goes to a tourney to sit around and watch a game, and then how do you score the person that got a bye. Max points? Min points? Average of other games? None of those take the variables of possible army matchups, luck of the dice, etc into account. That is the point.

I think I would be more upset if I drove out somewhere and was told "Sorry, we have an odd number of people. Please just sit over there for 3 hours while everyone else plays."

I am there to play 40k. While I enjoy winning, I am there to enjoy the game. Having a one person stand in should not be an issue. I would be even MORE upset if the person who won the entire event was handed maxed out points in the first round because he did not play anyone.

The first round is a crap shoot on who you are going to get. This should be the only time a stand-in victory/loss would make a difference. It seems to me like most times, the TOs are doing something to help the players have a more enjoyable time.

And, lets be honest now. The ONLY reason the OP is complaining is because he lost to that army. If he had tabled the guy and went on to win, we would not be having this conversation.

I think the ringer should bring a competitive army and play hard.

Tough call really, with the community moving to a strict win loss no soft score approach. I have been a battle points guy and my view has always been that the ringer army needs to be an army that consistantly loses gracefully run by someone who's peen won't shrink if they have to take a dive against a lesser player. With pure win loss as the new metric, though, its unfair to others in the room if the ringer is a free win, especially at one day events. As someone who will be playing Ringer at the Slaughter in Space, my plan is to take a crap army and play as well as I can with it and let the chips fall where they may. I would probably not take a top tier build and play it with the dials cranked to 11, but I can understand someone getting upset if the guy who came in first undefeated got there because he played a soft nid ringer in round one.

I would never allow a bye to occur, though. Someone who made the drive, paid their money, and bargained with the wife/gf deserves to get their games, win or lose. And even if the ringer is an autowin, it should make the person work for the bonus points.

Phazael wrote:I would never allow a bye to occur, though. Someone who made the drive, paid their money, and bargained with the wife/gf deserves to get their games, win or lose. And even if the ringer is an autowin, it should make the person work for the bonus points.

Yeah, no byes. Byes are freaking annoying, especially if I had to beg to get out for the weekend. I don't really care what you put me up against for the ringer, as long as I get a game.

Oh, and I am a fan of ringer being on the low end of the field.

Why should the ringer play a 'crap' army?

Yep, after the first round the ringer gets stuck playing whoever is at the bottom of the standings.

Unfortunately "ringers" are often needed to even out a tournament.

At the last tournament I ran I had to stand in which is something I really didnt want to do......

I played what I considered a somewhat less than optimal list but still decent. Random match up for the first round, then I played the lowest ranking player after the first round so I wouldnt affect the top rankings at all.

Seemed to work out well and no-one complained.

ps- I was at the event the OP is complaining about. The list was pretty strong, but Magilla is not unfun to play. Please tell me you are not the guy who ragequit after round two, because even the mighty Dave Fey stuck it out with a 1-2-1 record on the day with a sunny disposition the whole time.

Phazael wrote:ps- I was at the event the OP is complaining about. The list was pretty strong, but Magilla is not unfun to play. Please tell me you are not the guy who ragequit after round two, because even the mighty Dave Fey stuck it out with a 1-2-1 record on the day with a sunny disposition the whole time.

Given that he talks about finishing 2-1-1, seems like he played four rounds........................

dkellyj wrote:The TO was playing the Ringer so in the end, even had he gone 4-0, everyone would have been bumped up 1 position.
His Army list was among the top 2 or 3 list-builds at the event, was being played to win, but then dropped out after the second round after someone else quit.
That is my beef...2 guys got knocked out of contention by an ace that the final top 4 didn't have to face.

The TO should never be the ringer. That is just bad all the way around. It keeps the TO from being able to run the event and creates a situation in which a person, who is supposed to be impartial, has a direct buy in and personal opinion on members of the field.

I have played ringer a few times at GE: Pasadena. I ran a competitive, but not overly tooled, Salamander list one time. The next time I ran my SW with 2 instead of 3 Long Fangs, no speeders, no TWC, no Njal. First round pairings were random, second round I played the bottom. I think Dis, who TOs at GE: Pasadena, has a really good system for figuring out the ringers at his events, PM him since he may miss this thread.

Ugh, worse than ringers are people who leave the tournament early. Especially if the field was evenly paired before they left. If you can't stay the whole time or stick it out, then do us all a favor and don't come.

Ringer/stand-in should play a dedicated game just as if they were actually playing in the tournament. they should try to maximize their scores (even though they don't count) and they should always play the last place person regardless of how they did. I played the ringer in the Gladiator at Adepticon this year. Due to a series of late adds and other complications, my list was extremely poor for the Gladiator format (wraithlords and wraith guard don't hold up very well vs. Str. D weapons) however I approached the game like I would as if I was actually in the event, got lucky with warp spiders blowing up a titan! and pulled out a win. The other player was a great guy but made some serious mistakes.

Had I rolled over he would have been way over seeded going into round 2 providing someone there an easy win. Ideally the ringer is an average player with an average army, however since the average players are usually the ones playing not running an event an above average player with a below average army (or a bad player with a good army). The ringer should not be an above average player with a above average army or a below average player with a crappy army (at least not in round 1).

OverwatchCNC wrote:
The TO should never be the ringer.

Sometimes you have no choice. One of my tourneys a few years back, had a ringer just in case, but even matchups so didn't need him. At the end of the first round one of the players had to leave due to a family emergency. Unfortunately, his ride was the ringer. And the player that had to leave was vision impaired (yes, blind, and played 40K), so we couldn't just toss him the keys and say 'see ya'. Best laid plans and all that. So I had to run out to my car and pull out my IG to even things up.

Actually, the TO is ideal for the ringer, provided he knows how to lose gracefully without making it look like he blatantly took a dive. The only issue is not being able to answer questions and watch for cheating on other tables. The TO is not competing, so he has no dog in the fight, anyhow.