Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Here are some questions, ive read the rulebook numerous times, I know what it says, but some things confuse me.

Morale

When you have a unit falling back, the rulebook says "During Every Subsequent movement Phase", you make a fall back move. Do you only make FallBack Moves during your OWN movement phase, or EVERY movement Phase?

When you have a unit falling back, and it is tank shocked or it is shot and looses another 25%, do you automatically fall back again?

can you tank shock a unit falling back, and make it fall back like 5 times in the same phase?
does a 4 man unit falling back, who looses 2 to shooting, fall back again?

Tank Shocking

I dont understand the rules for skimmers tank shocking, as intervening models/terrain dont matter unless you land.

Can you Pre-Measure Tank Shocking? Its a movement so I dont see why not.
If you tank shock 24", can you tank shock over your own units, as your own models dont effect a skimmers movement.
If you tank shock over terrain, do you take a difficult terrain test if the models your tank shocking arnt in the terrain?

Can you rotate to tank shock if units are within 1" of you?

Thanks if you have the answers to this.

1. It says "instead of moving normally". As you can't move normally in your opponent's movement phase, you don't have to take a test then.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. You can tank shock anything you move over. You will only take a dangerous terrain test on take-off/landing, however.

5. Well, you have to declare the distance you are tank shocking, so pre-measuring won't matter because you've already had to declare a distance. If you're asking whether or not you can pre-measure before you tank shock, that's kind of a messy question.

7. Yes, as long as the vehicle is a skimmer.

8. Yes, unless you are moving a skimmer.

9. I've heard this one both ways. Not sure which is right.

0305Smitty wrote:When you have a unit falling back, the rulebook says "During Every Subsequent movement Phase", you make a fall back move. Do you only make FallBack Moves during your OWN movement phase, or EVERY movement Phase?

Only during your Movement Phase.

When you have a unit falling back, and it is tank shocked or it is shot and looses another 25%, do you automatically fall back again?

can you tank shock a unit falling back, and make it fall back like 5 times in the same phase?
does a 4 man unit falling back, who looses 2 to shooting, fall back again?

Yes to all of these.

I dont understand the rules for skimmers tank shocking, as intervening models/terrain dont matter unless you land.

Can you Pre-Measure Tank Shocking? Its a movement so I dont see why not.

You are not allow to pre-measure. You must declare how far you are going to move in your attempt to Tank Shock.

If you tank shock 24", can you tank shock over your own units, as your own models dont effect a skimmers movement.
If you tank shock over terrain, do you take a difficult terrain test if the models your tank shocking arnt in the terrain?

You still move like a skimmer, so you can move over your own models/difficult terrain. Also note, that vehicles do not take difficult terrain tests. if they start/end/or move through difficult terrain it is a dangerous terrain test.

Can you rotate to tank shock if units are within 1" of you?

You can still pivot (if you haven't moved yet). Enemy models that are in base contact are moved but stay in base contact with the hull/flight stand.

Given that you are allowed to pre-measure movement, and tank shock is movement, yes, you can pre-measure a tank shock.

Re skimmers and tank shocking,

Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that
is in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.

And I believe most of us agree that you can indeed roller coaster and fly over your own units while tank shocking. But don't worry, someone WILL come along to disagree.......................

Page 68 of the rulebook says that when you tank shock you have declared how far you are moving. Tank shocking is a special type of movement you turn the tank which direction you want it to go, declare the distance and keep moving and resolving issues that crop up such as tank shocks or difficult terrain. You don't get to premeasure as the rules don't allow for it.

don_mondo wrote:Given that you are allowed to pre-measure movement, and tank shock is movement, yes, you can pre-measure a tank shock.

This is debatable. Tank Shocking is done instead of normal movement, which, by itself, doesn't mean you can or you can't, but it also tells you what happens if, in fact, you do not make contact with an enemy unit, after moving your declared distance. Which is strongly implying that you can not pre-measure.
.

don_mondo wrote:And I believe most of us agree that you can indeed roller coaster and fly over your own units while tank shocking. But don't worry, someone WILL come along to disagree.......................

It is also stated, in the rule itself, that you can not attempt to Tank Shock if friendly models are in the way. The rule doesn't care if you are a skimmer or not.

ToBeWilly wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Given that you are allowed to pre-measure movement, and tank shock is movement, yes, you can pre-measure a tank shock.

This is debatable. Tank Shocking is done instead of normal movement, which, by itself, doesn't mean you can or you can't, but it also tells you what happens if, in fact, you do not make contact with an enemy unit, after moving your declared distance. Which is strongly implying that you can not pre-measure.
.

don_mondo wrote:And I believe most of us agree that you can indeed roller coaster and fly over your own units while tank shocking. But don't worry, someone WILL come along to disagree.......................

It is also stated, in the rule itself, that you can not attempt to Tank Shock if friendly models are in the way. The rule doesn't care if you are a skimmer or not.

But if you read the rules for skimmer movement you will find that skimmers are an exception as intervening models dont matter.

Well I guess since I was the opponent I should put in my two cents. During the game, while being argumentative about the it, I succeeded to most of what my opponent wanted. After the two games we played, we discussed it further outside of the got to win attitude, and I expressed my opinion on the manner from the perspective I will take with reffing The Rail Head Rumble here in a couple weeks.

Pre-measuring tank shocks: I would rule no to this.
Pg. 3 BRB "players are not allowed to premeasure any distance except when the rules call for it..."

Pg. 11 BRB Under movement it says it's okay to move your models, change your mind, move another direction, or not move at all.

Pg. 68 BRB Tank shock rules overide the normal movement rules, declaring you are doing a tank shock instead of moving normally. It goes on to say how movement is done. By rotating your vehicle in the direction you wish to move, declaring the distance it will move, then moving it that distance.

Because of these three things I would have to rule against pre-measuring of tank shocks.


Can you tank shock over your own units?
Yes, as long as you can set the tank down on the table to initiate the tank shock against the enemy.

What do I mean by this, we all understand that pg 71. allows for skimmers to ignore intervening friendly/enemy models and terrain during it's flight. However a tank shock requires action to be taken when an enemy model is reached (this does not imply being flown over and landed on). Because of this, I would rule that when the front of the vehicle touches(reaches) the closest(first) model in it's tank shock path the vehicle most be able to be placed on the table at the same level as those it is tank shocking.

In other words it's no longer flying through the air and ignoring intervening models/terrain as it is interacting with them. Because of this, if the tank can not be placed on the table because of friendly models in the way, the tank would have to follow the rules on pg. 68 referring to contact with friendly models which would require the tank to move backwards to until it could be placed on the table and stopping the tank shock.

If the tank can be placed on the table but would enter difficult/dangerous terrain, then the tank would have to take a dangerous terrain test. If it fails the test the tank shock is stopped and the tank remains where it landed. I know that skimmers ignore terrain when moving, but the rules on pg. 71 say the tank can fly over terrain(ignore terrain) not that it does, or must. So when the skimmer moves in for the tank shock, it is entering terrain and follows the rules for tank entering terrain.

Of course if there is no intervening terrain, or friendly models it can't land on then it tank shocks everyone just fine.


Can you rotate to tank shock if models are within 1" inch.
For this I would allow rotations that would come into contact with enemy models, pg 68. removes the requirement to stay at least 1" inch from enemies.

As for friendly models I would say no, except for the fact this is based on skimmers, so I would allow for skimmers to take off, rotate and then tank shock.


This is my opinion based on my readings from the book and how I would rule it for tournaments I referee. Of course I'm always open to having my eyes opened if I'm missing some important rule or FAQ.

If models are in b2b with a vehicle and it pivoes you move the models with the tank. See page 63.Though once you declate tank shock you have to move at combat speed in the direction you are aiming so after that you can tank shock the unit as I read it as it says that turning on the spot is not enough for a tank shock.

0305Smitty wrote:But if you read the rules for skimmer movement you will find that skimmers are an exception as intervening models dont matter.

That's for normal movement, which Tank Shock replaces. And, there is no exception in the Skimmer's rules for Tank Shocking.

With that being said, The Rulebook FAQ, found here, states:

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model
what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.

Which, implies, that they very well can, move over friendly models to perform a Tank Shock. So...there's that.

ToBeWilly wrote:

0305Smitty wrote:But if you read the rules for skimmer movement you will find that skimmers are an exception as intervening models dont matter.

That's for normal movement, which Tank Shock replaces. And, there is no exception in the Skimmer's rules for Tank Shocking.

With that being said, The Rulebook FAQ, found here, states:

Q: If a skimmer is forced to stop moving by a Death or
Glory! attack whilst over a friendly or enemy model
what happens? (p71)
A: Move the skimmer the shortest possible distance so
that it is no longer over any models.

Which, implies, that they very well can, move over friendly models to perform a Tank Shock. So...there's that.

Thanks for posting that, I read that in the Faq recently but I wasnt sure if that arguement made sense to anyone else but me.

Do you have input for how difficult terrain works?

0305Smitty wrote:Thanks for posting that, I read that in the Faq recently but I wasnt sure if that arguement made sense to anyone else but me.
Do you have input for how difficult terrain works?

Do you mean your original question?

0305Smitty wrote:If you tank shock over terrain, do you take a difficult terrain test if the models your tank shocking arnt in the terrain?

If you do? The link to the FAQ that I gave above also says:

Q: If a skimmer tank shocks or rams an enemy unit that
is in terrain must it take a Dangerous Terrain test? (p71)
A: Only if it begins or ends its move in terrain.

So...once again...there's that.

For pre-measuring: when is declaring a Tank Shock done? It doesn't tell you that you declare it as soon as you reach a model's movement, it simply says that it is done when moving a tank and instead of moving normally.

If I measure my model's movement, change my mind and decide not to move it, and then declare a tank shock, it is still being done instead of moving normally, as pg 11 gave me permission to measure and decide not to move.

As far as I can see (at 4:36am), you can pre-measure a tank shock, since you measured, decided not to move, and then declared that the tank is attempting a tank shock instead of moving normally.

It may be implicit but I think it's move normally do your (pre)measuring or tank shock. If I saw you measuring and then declaring a tank shock I would think it defeats the spirt of the rules if not the wording.

The reason you declare your distance seems to imply that you figure the range in whatever way you can(length of your forarm vs the distance between the units :p) and then announce direction and distance.

In the grim dark future, we don't have laser range finders. But we have laser rifles and space ships... Go figure.

Neroman wrote:In the grim dark future, we don't have laser range finders.

My Stormtroopers do...............................