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I've been struggling against a few of my gaming opponents as of late with my Panzerkompanie. I just can't seem to deal with the shermans I'm coming up against. Call it bad dice rolls on my part, but I want to try tweaking the list a bit to see if I can make it a bit more competitive.

Here's where it stands currently
Kompanie HQ w. 1 Panzer IV F1 & 1 Panzer IV G with recovery - 250

Panzer Platoon w. 3 Panzer IV F1 - 300
Panzer Platoon w. 3 Panzer IV G - 435

Light Panzer Platoon w. 5 Panzer II F - 250
Panzer Pioneer Platoon w. 3 squads - 135
Rocket Launcher Battery w. 3 15cm NW41 with halftracks - 120

Total 1490pts

I was thinking of replacing the Panzer IV G's with some Panzer III's to add some more shots, as well as dumping the Panzer II's for a heavy Panzerspah patrol, replacing the panzer pioneer's with something with a bit more punch

Here's all these thoughts in a new list.

Kompanie HQ w. Panzer IV F1 & Panzer III M w. recovery - 220

Panzer Platoon w. 3 Panzer IV F1 - 300
Panzer Platoon w. 4 Panzer III M - 460

Aufklarungs Platoon w. 3 squads - 190
Heavy Panzerspah Patrol w. 1 section - 85
Motorized Artillery Battery w. 4 10.5cm howitzers - 245

Total 1500pts

Thoughts?

Wow, NA. that's a book I have barely cracked.

What part about the Shermans are you having problems with? What are they doing to you?

I'm not sure you are going to find the Wespes twice as effective as the Nebs. Is there a way to take those back to Nebs and wiggle in an 88 or two? LW the 88 is very meh, but MW it still has quite a bit of use.

The artillery is just the howitzers. Wespe's are from the armored artillery battery. As far as the issues I'm having against shermans, it's mostly that I can't seem to kill them fast enough. With my Panzer IV G's as my only way to tackle them at range my opponent usually keys on them to get rid of them first. Once they're gone I'm kinda done. I figure if I can pump out more shots every turn I can deal with them a bit better

orkboy232 wrote:The artillery is just the howitzers. Wespe's are from the armored artillery battery. As far as the issues I'm having against shermans, it's mostly that I can't seem to kill them fast enough. With my Panzer IV G's as my only way to tackle them at range my opponent usually keys on them to get rid of them first. Once they're gone I'm kinda done. I figure if I can pump out more shots every turn I can deal with them a bit better

A partner of mine was having a similar problem with his Germans in NA against Aussie Div Cavalry (i think) and 8th Army armor; they have this nifty semi-indirect fire rule they were using against my Italians and his German armor. They had some Shermans and Grants that shelled us pretty hard and I watched his 4 Panzer IV G's disappear in a nasty volley. So, we always smoked them in future battles and kept them moving so it decreased their shots or accuracy.

I think long-balling with the Panzer IV's and using Panzer III's as your core tank platoons may work and save you some points for other support? Other than rushing pioneer infantry at him, maybe 88's or air support? Just try to remember your stormtrooper move when sniping the Shermans so that they have to work to get to you......i like the 105's for artillery but we'ev found in NA that the Germans just can't get enough guns on the field to be consistently useful....it's like they're always lacking something crucial in the list due to points restrictions or unit numbers within the platoon.

I'd say, after playing NA in our campaing with Germans, drop the light panzers, don't take wespes and keep nebs for smoke and for some nasty surprise... they can tackle the top of sherman. Also take 1 or pref. 2 88s or the better (!) you can take 3 pak40s as you are fighting in MW. Shermans dont stand a chance agains pak40s

so my list:

Kompanie HQ w. 1 Panzer III N & 1 Panzer IV G - 255

Panzer Platoon w. 3 Panzer III J(late) - 315
Panzer Platoon w. 2 Panzer IV G & 1 Panzer III N - 400

Anti-tank Gun Platoon w. 3 PaK40 - 220
Africa Schützen Platoon w. 3 squads, pzknacker - 195
Rocket Launcher Battery w. 3 15cm NW41 - 115

Total 1500pts

Pz III Ns are better than Pz IV F1s with better frontal armor.

I'd play these like this:
- Keep Pz III Ns and Js back, they are your reserve once you have taken out the heavy resistance with Pz IV Gs and PaK40s OR you can use them as a flanking force!
- dig in the PaK40s as far front as you can and center (80cm range is awesome and AT12!!!) and let them sing their death song
- nebs hidden in the back in some corner or center if possible, use these for smoke and occasionally bombard the enemy tanks if they have a high concentration
- pref. the infantry should either contest an objective or protect your nebs and/or PaK40s (I'd take PaK40s against tanks and nebs against infantry)

So here's my advices Cheers and good luck for your games

Make the Fatherland proud!

As an E/MW MittlerePz player, your biggest problem is that you lack long-range, standoff firepower (as ThirdUltra mentioned).

You're relying on your Panzers to close with enemy armor to neutralize them...but that just gives enemy armor a chance to neutralize your armor in return. Plus, in the open terrain of NA, you lack the option to snipe enemy armor and sneak back behind cover with your Stormtrooper moves.

Personally, I don't think your Pz IVs are bad at all. You just need something to start killing that armor off before they engage.

I'd drop the PzII Fs altogether, or at least lower their number to 3. 250pts is a lot to pay for a recon platoon. That 250pts could pay for 2x 88mms with ROF 3. Positioned right, they can effectively make entire table quarters "no man's land" for armor.

I don't think there's anything wrong with Panzer Pioneers, so long as you're taking the unit entry with access to flamethrowers and the pioneer vehicle. The ones with Opel Maultiers are basically useless, since they have no upgrade options.

As far as Nebels are concerned, I don't have much experience with them but their effectiveness seems to be against infantry hordes, rather than tank cos. YMMV

Why did everyone read the first list?

orkboy232 wrote:Why did everyone read the first list?

Because it's the list you've been playing with and it hasn't been working out?

No one is commenting on the list I suggested to remedy it though.

I did read both lists and after that wrote my own suggestions. And as the second list looks like more against infantry and you spoke of trouble against tanks I thought my suggestion was what you could try out.

With the second list you could swap out the artillery for some nebs and upgrade the PzIVF1s to PzIII J(late).

PzIVF1s are really quite poor so unless you have a particular attachment to them I would look at swapping them for the much more effective PzIIIJs.

I don't like the first list at all I'm afraid. The combat options are either quite ineffective or very expensive and both are 3 tanks strong which considering that they only have a FA of 5 makes them fragile.

I was thinking of a list such as;

HQ 2 PzIIIj(late) recovery halftrack,

4 PzIIIJ(late)

4 PzIIIJ(late)

Full schutzen platoon with Pzrknacker and captured 6 pounder

2 8 rad

3 nebs

1495

Mid war Panzers are very much a knife fighting army and I think that this list plays to their strengths. That being said if you are finding it hard to get flanking opportunites and you opponent has little or no artillery 88s are a decent choice, just be aware that they are very vulnerable to bombardments, aircraft and anything that doesn't have an armour rating.

Just wanted to clear one thing up. This list is set in Italy, so the III J is out (list uses III L or III M I believe) Also with regard to the F1's. When I built my Panzer III's, I bastardized the Panzer III and Panzer IV kits from PSC to make Panzer III L's or M's with schurzen (scratchbuilt side plates and trimmed Panzer IV turret plates) The issue this caused wasn't the lack of schurzen, but more so that I used the long 75's and trimmed them down to make the long 5cm guns. It was a rather short sighted thing to do as it only left me the short guns for the Panzer IV's. Since they're already built and painted, I figured I would include them in the list, as I've had pretty good luck with them, and the fact that they can fire smoke as well bombardments (albeit not overly powerful) seems very versatile. I'll look at making some changes as far as the artillery and infantry go

Well this was a good thing that you cleared these thing out (next time in the opening message perhaps )

I'll get to you later this week with Italy list cheers!

The F1s are hard to work into the list as points are quite tight.

HQ 1 x PzIIIM, 1 x PzIVF1

3 x PzIVF1

4 x PzIIM

2 x 8 rad

Full Panzergren platoon with knacker

3 nebs

limited 109 air support.

The points used on the air support could be much better spent on upgrading the PzIVs though

The Panzer IV bombardment is very weak, it is basically a mortar bombardment, yet the platoon costs 300 points. Its basically not cost effective. My first FoW list had a platoon of PzIVF1s as I like the look of them but I eventually replaced them due to how poorly they performed.

Halkomahooli wrote:I'd say, after playing NA in our campaing with Germans, drop the light panzers, don't take wespes and keep nebs for smoke and for some nasty surprise... they can tackle the top of sherman. Also take 1 or pref. 2 88s or the better (!) you can take 3 pak40s as you are fighting in MW. Shermans dont stand a chance agains pak40s

so my list:

Kompanie HQ w. 1 Panzer III N & 1 Panzer IV G - 255

Panzer Platoon w. 3 Panzer III J(late) - 315
Panzer Platoon w. 2 Panzer IV G & 1 Panzer III N - 400

Anti-tank Gun Platoon w. 3 PaK40 - 220
Africa Schützen Platoon w. 3 squads, pzknacker - 195
Rocket Launcher Battery w. 3 15cm NW41 - 115

Total 1500pts

Pz III Ns are better than Pz IV F1s with better frontal armor.

I'd play these like this:
- Keep Pz III Ns and Js back, they are your reserve once you have taken out the heavy resistance with Pz IV Gs and PaK40s OR you can use them as a flanking force!
- dig in the PaK40s as far front as you can and center (80cm range is awesome and AT12!!!) and let them sing their death song
- nebs hidden in the back in some corner or center if possible, use these for smoke and occasionally bombard the enemy tanks if they have a high concentration
- pref. the infantry should either contest an objective or protect your nebs and/or PaK40s (I'd take PaK40s against tanks and nebs against infantry)

So here's my advices Cheers and good luck for your games

Make the Fatherland proud!

I have two questions about this list.

1. Where did it come from? I made this list using the NA book, and was able to make it for 1305 pts as a 21.panzer division. You could add some recon using my build.
2. Why PAK40 and not 88s?

The list is made using NA, panzerkompanie in afrika section of the book. It was my mistake as I presumed the list was made using afrika and not italy part of the book as I and my club are just now fighting a campaing in afrika so was like old habit of making afrika list.

And why PaK40 and not 88.
1. 88 can't be concealed after dug in in V3, PaK40 can.
2. With almost the same amount of points you can take 2 88-guns or 3 PaK40 guns. Their AT is almost the same, both have gunshield, and PaK40 platoon with 3 guns+platoon command it needs to take 3 casuality to test motivation. 88s needs to take only 2! Ok 88 has better range and can be also used againt aircrafts if needed.
3. And with 3 guns you can cover as large area as with 88s.