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Made in gb
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker






Hello!

I used to play a lot of chess. I wasn't particularly good at it, but I knew my strengths. My opening play was adequate, and my endgame was excellent, but my mid-game? Hideous. I'd just move things around with little rhyme or reason, knowing that my great knack for spotting winning outs would kick in to give me a direction and purpose. I'd largely win more than I'd lose, at the level at which I played at least.

In 40k, I have the same problem. I go into the game with a nominal plan to frustrate my opponent and counter his playstyle, but when the troops are deployed and the dice are rolling, I literally have no clue what I'm doing. I move my guys about with little rhyme or reason, with no insight into what I should be doing, or what units I should focus on, or how best to utilize my own guys, and I tend to lose a lot of my forces because of it. Then, by the end of turn 4, my excellent endgame kicks in and I can see what I need to do to either force a draw or pull off an unlikely win (especially in objective missions). The problem is that such wins are exactly that: unlikely. My poor midgame leaves my endgame plans relying on ridiculously lucky assault results, or my opponent failing multiple leadership roles with Ld 10 guys, and so on. Needless to say, I fail 95% of the time. And that's only in objective missions... usually, my poor midgame in annihilation missions usually means my endgame skill is negated, as it's tough to face down an entire ork horde with little more than a 5-man tac squad.

I play Space Marines and Necrons, with my SMs doing better than the evil robots. I think that's likely because the Marines have more flexibility in play-style, being very forgiving despite my bad midgame, and a 3+ save is golden as we know. I play 1500 points, exclusively against tyrannids, DE, orks and (minimally) Tau. We play casually, but I'm a competitve guy at heart (coming from high-level M:tG play, in which I had more or less the same problem, heh).

Can anyone offer some advice on how to formulate a game plan? On how to play in the midgame? On what things I should concentrate, in the abstract? On how I can get myself to the endgame with a fighting chance to let my strategic strengths shine through? I'm sick to the back teeth of getting tabled by outflanking genestealers.

Cheers!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/14 00:18:48


 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch




Naperville

Play as much as you can, and remember what happenend. As a rule of thumb (for orks) move back, get in good shooting postion. Focus on things that do a lot of damage. Mid game is experience, to be totaly honest. A list to post would be a lot of help, too. Good luck to you, my friend.

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Made in us
Flameguard




Instead of moving things around, figure out which enemies will frustrate your endgame by destroying your pieces that are best suited for that time (fast ones or assaulty ones that can sweep units) and focus your game plan on eliminating them. You may end up losing some of your heavy hitters, but you'll have a mobility advantage and the ability to dictate where the end game happens. In objective missions this can be extremely important, while in annihilation it is key to be able to target weak/easy KPs at the end.

Eliminating those enemy units that most remove the strength of yours both preserves your forces, and pushes the enemy to waste ill suited units in attempting to weaken your strength. A win-win really, so if you have an armor heavy list, eliminate enemy AT, or anti-personnel units if you are running infantry.
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





Bradley Beach, NJ

I usually play "tit-for-tat". I mimic my opponent's moves countering their units with units that are nearly equivalent to the enemy. If the enemy backs off in one area, so do I (unless there is an objective there).

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Speaking from a 'beer and pretzels' club level...

Generally with my guard, the midgame is all about getting my Rocks into position to hit his scissors, while getting my paper away from them. - Or, to be technical, lining shots up with my russ against his death company while moving away my infantry blob...


Marines, being generalists, I'd suggest your midgame should be focusing on adapting to the results of the early game. EG, maybe a flank took really nasty fire, in that case, look to the objectives and find out whether you need to reinforce that side, or abandon it....

Maybe it's just a pychological thing and it'd help to treat the start of each of your turns as the start of the game. Look where your dudes are after the enemies turn, look where your objectives are (or concentration of squishy units if you're playing annihilation) and remake your plan, or retweak it each time.
   
Made in ca
Twisted Trueborn with Blaster




Fredericton, NB

Other than reaching for your overarching goal, every turn should be taken as the start of a new game.

Look at the board, imagine where things need to be and what needs to be out of the way, and go.

The simple mantra of planning on a unit by unit level
Cover (what blocks me from the enemy, provides saves, etc)
Obstacles (what is in my way LOS block or difficult terrain)
Positions of Fire (Where can I bring max firepower on the enemy)
Positions of Fire (Where will they move to get max firepower on me)
Enemy (most dangerous/most deadly*)
Distance (how far do you think you have to go vs how far you can move)

*Most Dangerous (what can the enemy do which will cause my plan to fail)
*Most Deadly (what can the enemy do that will destroy the most of my force)

Go through these steps every movement phase (as you should be selecting what you shoot at that time, if possible) and try to maximized the elements that benefit you and minimize the elements that benefit the enemy.

Know thy self. Everything follows this.
 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




In your squads, doing the chainsword tango

Turns 1-2: Get set up for the headbutting contest
Turns 3-4: 'Eadbutting contest!
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"Don't feel so bad laddie, I was 'eadbutting chumps like you since you were a wee pup at your mothers teat!"

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Vallejo, CA

lol.

As the above implies, 40k is a much, much shorter game than chess. In most of the games of 40k I've played, turns 1-3 have been a desperate scramble to get everything set up for the end of the game. If you play like you have turn 6 in mind every turn, you will do just fine.

It's possible to do two things in a game of 40k, but only so long as that first thing doesn't take up more time than turn 1 (and maybe turn 2).

If your end-game doesn't require so much to do that your turns 3 and 4 are basically planned out for you, you're probably not thinking enough ahead.

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Made in gb
Slippery Ultramarine Scout Biker






Thanks for the advice, guys. It seems I need to concentrate on a more prioactive plan for the first four turns, and then try to achieve the objectives in the plan while reacting to the state of the game. And in fact, I need three plans (or at least 2.5), for each of the mission types, and also variations on the plans for each of the deployment styles.

I like the "turns 1 and 2: set up / turns 3 and 4: release the hounds" approach (hell, it's better than my "plan for turns 1 and 2 then just bumble around the field like a confused owl" approach that I currently have). And I'd love to play more often, but me and my regular opponent can only manage once per week. Nice and all, but hardly caning it. I also know that because I change my list each time we play (I like mixing things up, especially as we only play one battle a week), I find it hard to judge the more subtle strengths of any given unit or strategy as I don't stick with stuff for long. I have to change this, I guess... but how to do that without annoying my opponent (I currently only have one)?

A couple more questions while I'm here:

1) Is there a good central repository for tournament lists and results? One Site to List Them All, as it were?
2) How long should a 1500-point-each game last? Ours take what seems like an age sometimes. Like, four or five hours, and that's if it ends turn 5.

Cheers!
   
Made in us
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Peoria IL

Turn 1-2: Section off units opponent needs to win and if possible commit all of your forces to half of his (deployment makes the game).
Turn 3-4: Annihilate scoring units (if obj game) and keep all your force fighting half of his
Turn 5-6: End game after turning the flank, push towards enemy survivors and table opponent.

Don't get caught in "my fire/axe line vs yours". This isn't the Battle of Monmouth, using deployment, reinforcements and deep strikes (flanking too if you're a gambler... or a White Scar) get a majority of your forces to concentrate overwhelming fire on a segment of his every turn. I create a walking fire fortress and mow through segments of whatever force I'm facing, defeating them in detail. The setup for this maneuver is deployment/turn 1 and its execution is the mid game. If anything survives after turn 4, make sure you've got options to contest/deny all the objectives but one, which you capture (yet another reason you only need 1 scoring unit in the end game).

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Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






In all of the type of games, I go for "I'm going to table my opponent type of play". If there are objectives, then I'll leave one unit a little bit back to be able to get the objective near/in my deployment zone (or since you are Sms, a scout unit with camo cloak and sniper rifles can just stay int he far back). Since i'm ork that unit are gretchins.

I only start thinking about the objecive at turn 4. Before that, except if you have a super computer like brain, there are waaay to many variables to figure the best way of playing and like said before, go for a unit by unit tactics.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/15 04:13:12


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gulf Breeze Florida

Depends on the Army.

My tau just want to survive to turn 4. By then I should either have shot enough of the other army off the board to were I can grab objectives with no resistance or I'm getting my daily recommended amount of Chainsword to the face.

Daemons on the other hand... Drop Plaugebearers on Objectives, otherwise ignore objectives and kill until Nothing remains.


 
   
Made in us
PanOceaniac Hacking Specialist Sergeant




Great Falls MT

To put it in a chess metaphore. You dont ever want to give up a piece without taking one, unless the apparently "easy kill" offers you superior positioning in return.

And never be afraid to "sacrifice your queen" in favor of drawing out your opponent into an exploitable position.

It really is similar to chess. You want to move in such a way as to open up false avenues of advance for your opponent i.e. leaving an objective "unguarded" only to swoop in with overwhelming force that your opponent thought was directed elsewhere.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/15 05:47:09


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Made in us
Legendary Dogfighter




Garden Grove, CA

Compel wrote: it'd help to treat the start of each of your turns as the start of the game.


I never actually realized that this is exactly how I play the game. I also plan based on where I want to be at the end of the game.

For example, I play BA and my friends and I like to play the BAO format (all book missions at once) and I always try to place my objective as close as I can to theirs and as central as I can get them because I plan to be in the middle of the board by turn 5. That actually turned what would of been a horrible loss to an IG player (6 russes and 3 vendettas ) into a tie.

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Made in us
Waaagh! Warbiker





San Diego

Scouseboy wrote:

In 40k, I have the same problem. I go into the game with a nominal plan to frustrate my opponent and counter his playstyle,



Try to frustrate him before he makes his move, don't wait until he makes it that might be to late.

Read every Codex, know your Enemy, and you can shut him down before he can make his move. Besides, most of the Codex are pretty cool reading.

I have a couple moves I do mid game depending on the type of Mission it is. If it's not a Kill Point Mission I might throw away a Unit or two in order to draw in his Unit(s) that I might want to pull off an object, pull near to a Unit of mine that will strike at them the following turn or something like that.

If your playing a Player that is always wanting to Table you it becomes really easy to draw him away from an objective in the later rounds if he thinks he can kill stuff.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/05/15 07:47:43


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Made in ca
Unhealthy Competition With Other Legions




Toronto, Ontario

All this is very good advice. The one thing that you have to make sure you're doing as well is build your list according to your strengths and playstyle. If your guys are just moving around for the sake of it, then you probably have the wrong forces. If you have guys sitting around all game firing and then needing to run, maybe you need a devastator squad and then you'll have them doing the same thing all game. If you're guys are running around looking for something to do, maybe they need a Rhino to get to an objective early and make the enemy fight over it. If you like chess then think on those terms. Every unit you take has a job to do in your army. Set the army up so that you have a game plan before it even starts and then react to changes accordingly.

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Made in de
Storm Trooper with Maglight







The one thing that you have to make sure you're doing as well is build your list according to your strengths and playstyle.


I wish there were more guys with that advice. This is very important, because a player that uses "good" units just because many say they're "good" will not be successful if they don't suit him. He will be more successful with units other players consider "bad" just because they suit him.

Some players like to have swift and mobile lists, some need elite in-your-face stuff, some need heavy armour, some need just masses of everything, some need sneaky stuff, some like it specialised, some like it versatile and so on...

Every unit you take has a job to do in your army. Set the army up so that you have a game plan before it even starts and then react to changes accordingly.


Also very densely packed good advice.

My advice on top of that is: If you want to win, fulfil the mission at all costs and fulfil it, when it is necessary. Not too early and not too late.

 
   
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