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Can a player always choose to remove the model that was effected by Mindshackle scarabs as a casualty?

Why wouldn't a player be able too?

Is there something in the Mindshackle scarabs rules that disallows normal casualty removal?

If not, then if the model can be allocated wounds as normal, and can be a casualty.

I think he's asking if he can kill off a unit affected by scarabs mid game, without the help of the enemy.

If he is, the answer is no.

No actually in a game yesterday, an opponent was shackled and choose to remove the effected model as the casualty. I was fine with it as it was the most dangerous model and thus why I based it for the purposes of Mindshackle. I was more than happy for that model to die, but I wasn't sure if that was okay. Seems like nothing prevents it just checking to see if anyone disagrees.

NecronLord3 wrote:No actually in a game yesterday, an opponent was shackled and choose to remove the effected model as the casualty. I was fine with it as it was the most dangerous model and thus why I based it for the purposes of Mindshackle. I was more than happy for that model to die, but I wasn't sure if that was okay. Seems like nothing prevents it just checking to see if anyone disagrees.

It's not in the rules that you can just claim one of your models as a casualty so no, you can't do it.
He would have to kill it himself.

purplefood wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No actually in a game yesterday, an opponent was shackled and choose to remove the effected model as the casualty. I was fine with it as it was the most dangerous model and thus why I based it for the purposes of Mindshackle. I was more than happy for that model to die, but I wasn't sure if that was okay. Seems like nothing prevents it just checking to see if anyone disagrees.

It's not in the rules that you can just claim one of your models as a casualty so no, you can't do it.
He would have to kill it himself.

Model in unit is shackled.
Unit takes wounds.
Wound is allocated to shackled model group.
a model in that group fails the save.
Shackled model can be removed.

You can't just voluntarily fail the saves, but you can absolutely nuke the model with the wounds that model group has suffered.

rigeld2 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No actually in a game yesterday, an opponent was shackled and choose to remove the effected model as the casualty. I was fine with it as it was the most dangerous model and thus why I based it for the purposes of Mindshackle. I was more than happy for that model to die, but I wasn't sure if that was okay. Seems like nothing prevents it just checking to see if anyone disagrees.

It's not in the rules that you can just claim one of your models as a casualty so no, you can't do it.
He would have to kill it himself.

Model in unit is shackled.
Unit takes wounds.
Wound is allocated to shackled model group.
a model in that group fails the save.
Shackled model can be removed.

You can't just voluntarily fail the saves, but you can absolutely nuke the model with the wounds that model group has suffered.

You can't just take it off straight away though can you?
He has to actually take the wounds...

purplefood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

purplefood wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No actually in a game yesterday, an opponent was shackled and choose to remove the effected model as the casualty. I was fine with it as it was the most dangerous model and thus why I based it for the purposes of Mindshackle. I was more than happy for that model to die, but I wasn't sure if that was okay. Seems like nothing prevents it just checking to see if anyone disagrees.

It's not in the rules that you can just claim one of your models as a casualty so no, you can't do it.
He would have to kill it himself.

Model in unit is shackled.
Unit takes wounds.
Wound is allocated to shackled model group.
a model in that group fails the save.
Shackled model can be removed.

You can't just voluntarily fail the saves, but you can absolutely nuke the model with the wounds that model group has suffered.

You can't just take it off straight away though can you?
He has to actually take the wounds...

That's exactly what I said, and exactly what I read NecronLord3 as saying when he said, "choose to remove the effected model as the casualty"

Now when a model is shackled and lets say he has three attacks and he trys to kill him self with it and he fails all three saves does the rest of the unit take the rest of the wounds?

The model attacks the unit. You do not get a chance to remove the shackeled model until the remove casualties step.

If the shackeled model is part of a wound group that failed a save, then feel free to remove him. You also need to remove the other casualties as appropriate based on how wounds were allocated and saves were taken.

munchie285 wrote:Now when a model is shackled and lets say he has three attacks and he trys to kill him self with it and he fails all three saves does the rest of the unit take the rest of the wounds?

You have to allocate wounds as normal. Lets say you are facing a Space Marine Sergent, 4 Tactical Marines and one Marine with a Heavy Bolter. Your Sergent gets shackled and causes 3 hits. You roll to wound and wound 2 Models. You then have to allocate wounds, which 1 can go to the Sergent and 1 to a Tactical Marine. Then roll to save as normal. You can't allocate all 3 to the Sergent. Now the IC in a unit is covered in the FAQ. If he is shackled he attacks the squad he is attached to, and apparently you can still allocate 1 wound to him, if desired.

NecronLord3 wrote:

munchie285 wrote:Now when a model is shackled and lets say he has three attacks and he trys to kill him self with it and he fails all three saves does the rest of the unit take the rest of the wounds?

You have to allocate wounds as normal. Lets say you are facing a Space Marine Sergent, 4 Tactical Marines and one Marine with a Heavy Bolter. Your Sergent gets shackled and causes 3 hits. You roll to wound and wound 2 Models. You then have to allocate wounds, which 1 can go to the Sergent and 1 to a Tactical Marine. Then roll to save as normal. You can't allocate all 3 to the Sergent. Now the IC in a unit is covered in the FAQ. If he is shackled he attacks the squad he is attached to, and apparently you can still allocate 1 wound to him, if desired.

The IC can choose to put all attacks on himself just like normal. In fact, he would have to since the MS states the affected model attacks his own unit and IC's are considered separate units in CC.

Nope, the FAQ states that a IC affected by MSS will attack the unit he is joined with.

The IC can choose to put all attacks on himself just like normal. In fact, he would have to since the MS states the affected model attacks his own unit and IC's are considered separate units in CC.

Not according to the GW FAQ:

If an Independent Character that has joined a unit is affected by mindshackle scarabs will his attacks be resolved against the unit he has joined? (p81) A: Yes.

Ah, how nice and contradictory. Thanks.

Kevin949 wrote:Ah, how nice and contradictory. Thanks.

It is but it is also a more practical application of the rule. Generally a character isn't going to lose his mind and just fall upon his own sword. He is going to strike out at the perceived enemies around him first.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Ah, how nice and contradictory. Thanks.

It is but it is also a more practical application of the rule. Generally a character isn't going to lose his mind and just fall upon his own sword. He is going to strike out at the perceived enemies around him first.

True but we all know that fluff and rules almost never collide anyway, and this is just another instance of that. Unfortunately in this situation it is fluff taking precedence over core rules (general assault rules).

I agree. I'm also pretty sure you wouldn't have anyone arguing that it should be played this way if not for the FAQ but there would also be an outcry as MSS would be considered way OP if you could always single out an IC to kill itself.

Id say that MSS' purpose fluffwise is to cause someone to fight their own unit, not kill themselves. Otherwise, itd be called brain exploding scarabs, in my humble, fluff opinion

Basimpo wrote:Id say that MSS' purpose fluffwise is to cause someone to fight their own unit, not kill themselves. Otherwise, itd be called brain exploding scarabs, in my humble, fluff opinion

GW Faq wrote:
FAQ says otherwise, no insult mentioned, but I agree with you.
Q: If a single model fails the Leadership test caused by
mindshackle scarabs, will his Attacks be resolved
against himself? (p81)
A: Yes.

I agree with you fluffwise, GW doesn't :(. I think they should just stand there. The other scenario (doesn't happen often) is when the necrons swing first and you put wounds on the shackled guy.

Ruphi wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Id say that MSS' purpose fluffwise is to cause someone to fight their own unit, not kill themselves. Otherwise, itd be called brain exploding scarabs, in my humble, fluff opinion

GW Faq wrote:
FAQ says otherwise, no insult mentioned, but I agree with you.
Q: If a single model fails the Leadership test caused by
mindshackle scarabs, will his Attacks be resolved
against himself? (p81)
A: Yes.

I agree with you fluffwise, GW doesn't :(. I think they should just stand there. The other scenario (doesn't happen often) is when the necrons swing first and you put wounds on the shackled guy.

Are you suggesting people NOT take assault grenades then so they can avoid MSS? BLASPHEMER!!!

Ruphi wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Id say that MSS' purpose fluffwise is to cause someone to fight their own unit, not kill themselves. Otherwise, itd be called brain exploding scarabs, in my humble, fluff opinion

GW Faq wrote:
FAQ says otherwise, no insult mentioned, but I agree with you.
Q: If a single model fails the Leadership test caused by
mindshackle scarabs, will his Attacks be resolved
against himself? (p81)
A: Yes.

I agree with you fluffwise, GW doesn't :(. I think they should just stand there. The other scenario (doesn't happen often) is when the necrons swing first and you put wounds on the shackled guy.

The scenario actually happens quite often. Often a good necron player will try to get into base contact with the most powerfull model which in 10 man squads is often a power fist or something simmilar. PF makes you inative Necrons are inative 2 so they strike first. But a good player should try to avoid his Sgt's being in the front when playing necrons. Only shift the PF/PW to the front if its a PF and its going on a vehicle. The PW should never be at the front against 'crons.

Basimpo wrote:Id say that MSS' purpose fluffwise is to cause someone to fight their own unit, not kill themselves. Otherwise, itd be called brain exploding scarabs, in my humble, fluff opinion

I think this is an example of Matt Ward and GW actually balancing the Codex quite well. Necrons have very little in the way of being able to take on powerful single model units like Trygons, Mephiston, DPs, etc... MSS let you even the CC playing field a bit.

Kevin949 wrote:

Are you suggesting people NOT take assault grenades then so they can avoid MSS? BLASPHEMER!!!

I play orks, they aren't worth the points
The other scenario is in multicombats with a C'tan, or wraiths.