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Thought I'd share this year's FOW project for Adepticon. I had fun making it. If you're interested in specifics, check out my blog. Enjoy!

I have gone totally green looking at these.., Superb work.

Awesome work! I love seeing EW stuff, I'm glad Battlefront finally got to it. I especially dig those half-track mounted 88s.

I've had the idea to do an EW Panzerkompanie from 7. Panzerdivision with Czech 38(t)s for awhile now, and your stuff is giving me the EW itch again!

This is mid war though, at least it looks like it given that it has StuIG33s and what look to be PzIIIJs.

Check out the link, it's for Early War and Mid War. The Panzer IIIs are Ausf. Gs, and the IVs are Ds.

A lot of the later EW stuff works for MW too, just as a lot of the later MW stuff works in LW. I've got a Panzer IV E in one of my Afrika Korps platoons, for example.

Yes but while all these work in MW that don't all work in EW which is what confused me

Palindrome wrote:Yes but while all these work in MW that don't all work in EW which is what confused me

Well, most of them do. Can you not take StuIG 33Bs in EW? And aren't those half-track mounted 88s EW only? Or can you take them in MW too?

MW monsters are they not?

Mat

combat engineer wrote:MW monsters are they not?

Mat

No, they're not MW monsters, you can take them in a normal list. They had models and stats for them even in 1st edition (which is kind of strange, since there were barely any built if I remember correctly). Edit - To clarify, I'm referring to the StuIG 33Bs here.



Actually, hold on. Are you talking about the StuIG 33Bs or the half-tracked 88s?

The Buflas can be used in EW (Blitzkrieg) and MW (Eastern Front). They were included in MWM for those German Companies not using the Eastern Front book and because they were technically "experimental".

I can only take the StuG33b in MW, as it was specifically produced for street fighting in Stalingrad. I'm currently working on a Schwere Pz Co. for LW, that can also be used in Mid-War itself or to supplement this company.

@Hordini: Zvezda make an excellent Pz 38(t) which can be used in both Early and Mid-War.

ancientsociety wrote:The Buflas can be used in EW (Blitzkrieg) and MW (Eastern Front). They were included in MWM for those German Companies not using the Eastern Front book and because they were technically "experimental".

I can only take the StuG33b in MW, as it was specifically produced for street fighting in Stalingrad. I'm currently working on a Schwere Pz Co. for LW, that can also be used in Mid-War itself or to supplement this company.

@Hordini: Zvezda make an excellent Pz 38(t) which can be used in both Early and Mid-War.

Thanks for the clarification! I thought that the StuIG 33Bs were the ones built for Stalingrad, but I couldn't remember if there were other versions that might have been more widespread.

Those BunkerFlaks are nice, I might have to add some if they fit into any of the 7. Panzer OOBs. I'll have to check out the Zvezda Pz 38(t)s as well, that could make the project a bit easier.

The half-track with 88 is the 8.8cm Flak 18 Selbstfahrlafette auf Zugkraftwagen 12t.

They served with 8th Schwere Panzerjaegerabteilung in Poland and France. In France they were attached to the 1st Panzer Division.

12 were eventually completed.

The term 'bunkerflak' seems to apply to the gun mounting, not the vehicle.

For instance this is a towed 'Bunkerflak';




Atleast one was knocked-out in France (likely bombed by Stukas in a friendly fire incident, seen in the pic below from 1st Kp, Pj.Abt 8 near Chemery);




They also saw service in Russia where all were eventually lost in action.

Thanks for the info and the photos Big P! Good to know. I knew there was only a very small number built.

If anyone is curious, I checked and it appears that only 24 StuIG 33Bs were built, all of them being used on the Eastern Front.

The models look pretty good. I like the command group especially. You have modelled them quite specifically as early war vehicles - the lack of turret stowage boxes on the Panzer IIs and IVs, and (unless it's meant to be mud) the dark brown camo are pre-Barbarossa features (although one of the command stands seems to include a Panzerschreck). What's the little box-like structure on one of the Panzer II turrets?

Nice photos, Big P, as always. I've seen the destroyed Zugkraftwagen from another angle. That Stuka appears to have taken out the Panzer I, Panzer III and Zugkraftwagen in one go!

Tailgunner wrote:(although one of the command stands seems to include a Panzerschreck)

I think that's actually a rangefinder, not a Panzerschreck.

Tailgunner wrote:

Nice photos, Big P, as always. I've seen the destroyed Zugkraftwagen from another angle. That Stuka appears to have taken out the Panzer I, Panzer III and Zugkraftwagen in one go!

A huge number of pics of those H/Ts have come out in the last few years. I have five of that destroyed one from various angles. In one you can see the French truck the Stuka pilot was aiming at...

Hordini wrote:I think that's actually a rangefinder, not a Panzerschreck.

Okay - it's a bit hard to tell.

Tailgunner wrote:The models look pretty good. I like the command group especially. You have modelled them quite specifically as early war vehicles - the lack of turret stowage boxes on the Panzer IIs and IVs, and (unless it's meant to be mud) the dark brown camo are pre-Barbarossa features (although one of the command stands seems to include a Panzerschreck). What's the little box-like structure on one of the Panzer II turrets?

The PzIIIs do have stowage boxes on the rear turret. The camo is the pre-'41 Grey/Brown scheme, though I added pigment-based "mud" to the tracks and undercarriages.

This PzII by Zvezda I modified to the Ausf. B "Beobachtungsturm". This was, as far as I can tell, a very rare command PzII with an observation cupola mounted on top of the turret. This operates as either my CC or 2iC, depending on the list I run.






I did slight modifications to nearly all the vehicles:






The Opel Radio is a full conversion from the normal Blitz model by Zvezda:

ancientsociety wrote:The camo is the pre-'41 Grey/Brown scheme

Thats pre-war, not pre-41.

On 1937-07-19, it was ordered that all the camouflage pattern should be Dunkelbraun Nr.45 and Dunkelgrau Nr.46, spray with feathered edges. The vehicles painted in the former Buntfarbenanstrich shouldn't be repainted in the new pattern unless they had to be repainted anyway. On 1938-11-07, it was ordered that all vehicles should be painted in the new pattern by the troops. In addition, it was specified that the pattern should consist of a base coat of Dunkelgrau Nr.46 with one-third of the base colour covered by Dunkelbraun Nr.45.

On 1940-06-12, it was ordered that units would be issued paint, rather than having to buy it from the suppliers, and that only Dunkelgrau would be issued. On 1940-07-31, it was ordered that all tanks should only be painted in Dunkelgrau Nr.46.

However thats not quite the whole story.

Even before the June 1940 order to only use Panzer Grey, many factories had been doing that for sometime. The 1938 order stipulated that 75% of the vehicle should be grey. As factories increased production they deleted the brown overspray as it took extra time to do. Once the vehicle was sprayed grey it was ready. This unofficial practice seems to have been more widespread than the actual order to use the brown overspray and is believed to be the reason for the 1940 order, in effect giving official sanction for a practice already in existence.

The other recent theory is that an error in the original work on Panzer colours started all this and the 1940 order was actually issued in 1939.

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

There are plenty of images that clearly show all grey vehicles in both Poland and France, and that they seem to be the majority.

Poland 1939


Sadly, its very hard to prove that grey and brown camo tanks comprised any large part of the German armies in 1939 and 1940. Photographic evidence is slim to non-existant and is made harder to prove as some state that it turns the same colour in B&W. This is not quite true and you can still discern the patterning.

I think the FOW desire to use brown and grey camo is a little far-fetched Im afraid...

Big P wrote:Sadly, its very hard to prove that grey and brown camo tanks comprised any large part of the German armies in 1939 and 1940. Photographic evidence is slim to non-existant and is made harder to prove as some state that it turns the same colour in B&W. This is not quite true and you can still discern the patterning.

I think the FOW desire to use brown and grey camo is a little far-fetched Im afraid...

Overall, I would agree and it is true that there is unfortunately little photographic evidence. I personally think that it is probably likely that Dunklebraun wasn't used early in the war, or perhaps only used in limited quantities. I think the jury is still out to a certain extent though, and I'm not yet prepared to consider an early war panzer color scheme that includes Dunkelbraun to be outside the realm of historical possibility.

I'd also like to note that there's a very nice article on the Flames of War website about early war German vehicle colors, and it presents both sides of the argument and includes references. I know it's fun for you to pretend that actual history and research aren't important to FOW players and that using ahistorical paint schemes is some weird "FOW desire," but the reality is of the situation is quite a bit different than you often suggest.

I'd rather not get into a discussion here re: the two-tone scheme since the last one I engaged in here devolved quickly into a flame war to prove which side had a more encyclopedic knowledge of military livery.

Suffice to say, it's actually fairly well-documented that a good number of EW German armor retained the two-tone scheme in the West for some time, so it's not much of a stretch to paint my toy soldiers that way.

'Camouflage Colours', by Tomas Chory, supports what Big P wrote. The order specifying the Dunkelgrau andDunkelbraun camouflage scheme (H.M. 1937 nr. 340) was issued in July 1937. However, as Big P said, it appears that this didn't happen with a lot of vehicles, so that by the invasion of Poland many vehicles were painted plain grey. In July 1940 H.M. 1940 nr. 864 decreed that it was to be plain Dunkelgrau from then on, so camouflaged Panzers would be quite rare by the invasion of France. There are some photos that show what looks like a camouflage on pre-1941 Panzers, but it is very hard to be sure.

I think there's enough room for interpretation for grey/brown camouflaged Panzers in the 1939-40 period to be 'valid', and it's visually more interesting than monochrome grey.

Great looking stuff!

Hordini wrote:
I'd also like to note that there's a very nice article on the Flames of War website about early war German vehicle colors, and it presents both sides of the argument and includes references. I know it's fun for you to pretend that actual history and research aren't important to FOW players and that using ahistorical paint schemes is some weird "FOW desire," but the reality is of the situation is quite a bit different than you often suggest.

Would you like to show me all these comments that I often suggest. I have never suggested that some players of FOW are not interested in historical research. The original poster here certainly is.

Please dont try and put words in my mouth or imply some form of snobbish elitism. If you dont want to discuss things, dont join in. I posted some information on the vehicles that the OP had posted and commented (with what is basically said in the article you posted) on early pre-war camo.

If you read what i wrote, I didnt say it didnt exist , but the camo scheme would be rare... Its possible, especially on trucks and softskins that would be repainted less, but for armoured vehicles unlikely.

A further reason why it is unlikely is that crews would repaint vehicles between campaigns. Thus a vehicle could have had three or four new coats of paint since it left the factory. In general, this seems to have been the single grey colour.

Given that virtually all colour photographic evidence shows only grey vehicles, we have to assume that the June 1940 order was a retrospective order for something already inforce, because otherwise all the pictures would show two-tone camo as the common theme.

The fact that the available colour pictures dont mean we have to assume that the grey scheme was by far the most common as is borne out by the available pictorial evidence.

In the FOW article they dont show a picture of a vehicle in two-tone camo in France or Poland; other than the picture of the Panzer II on pre-war training exercises. But as always with B&W its hard to give a definte answer as the colours tone is so similar.

Suffice to say, it's actually fairly well-documented that a good number of EW German armor retained the two-tone scheme in the West for some time, so it's not much of a stretch to paint my toy soldiers that way.

But its not well documented though is.

Can you point out these well documented facts that a good number used this scheme in France 1940? I have yet to see such defining evidence. I would be interested to see who suggest it and their primary sources for it. Hazard of being an ex-War Studies Lecturer... I like evidence.

Given the countless repaints armour would have had, and the photo evidence to the contrary, I would love to see some pictures of a sizeable amount of vehicle in the two-tone camo for my own personal interest in the subject.

That said, paint them how you like, they are your models and they look great.

Im just an old misery who slags off FOW players all the time apparently...

Again, I really don't want to have my post hijacked regarding camo schemes. Please respect that.

Please take the discussion about camo to a new thread if you wish to continue discussing it.

Thanks.