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Ouze wrote:

nomsheep wrote:@ ouze: yes but smallpox kills, personal faith not so much.

Nom

My point was in rebuttal to your post that "true faith would survive the internet age, because it's survived over 3,000 years". Smallpox is substantially older than 3,000 years old and has been eradicated.

The argument "since it's been around a long time, it will therefore be around forever" is not very compelling to me.

My point wasnt phrased very well or at all tbh.
Smallpox kills therefore lots of people work to destroy it. My personal faith harms no one hence less people will try and destroy it so it will last longer.

Nom

Edit: on a larger scale organized religon can be harmful but most peoples personal faith/creed or religon is not.

PhantomViper wrote:

broodstar wrote:
I believe in demons. I believe in demonic oppression, I don't believe in possession. (there is a difference) A long time ago if a person acted weird, it was the devil, now we know of mental illness and have classified many of those weird behaviors. Now a person sees a psychiatrist before they see a priest. Now the rite of exorcism is used vary rarely and only when doctors have ran out of answers. But, I believe that there are wicked incorporeal beasts out there that like to F with your emotions, to the point that you kill yourself or other people.

I strongly suggest you visit a psychiatrist because you are exhibiting a few classic simptons of paranoia and even mild delusion...

No, I just have religious beliefs. I'll take your idea of being delusional but, if you believe the devil exists, that's not Paranoia, that's being alert.

broodstar wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

broodstar wrote:
I believe in demons. I believe in demonic oppression, I don't believe in possession. (there is a difference) A long time ago if a person acted weird, it was the devil, now we know of mental illness and have classified many of those weird behaviors. Now a person sees a psychiatrist before they see a priest. Now the rite of exorcism is used vary rarely and only when doctors have ran out of answers. But, I believe that there are wicked incorporeal beasts out there that like to F with your emotions, to the point that you kill yourself or other people.

I strongly suggest you visit a psychiatrist because you are exhibiting a few classic simptons of paranoia and even mild delusion...

No, I just have religious beliefs. I'll take your idea of being delusional but, if you believe the devil exists, that's not Paranoia, that's being alert.

Why do you need to be alert?

nomsheep wrote:

Ouze wrote:

nomsheep wrote:@ ouze: yes but smallpox kills, personal faith not so much.

Nom

My point was in rebuttal to your post that "true faith would survive the internet age, because it's survived over 3,000 years". Smallpox is substantially older than 3,000 years old and has been eradicated.

The argument "since it's been around a long time, it will therefore be around forever" is not very compelling to me.

My point wasnt phrased very well or at all tbh.
Smallpox kills therefore lots of people work to destroy it. My personal faith harms no one hence less people will try and destroy it so it will last longer.

Nom

Edit: on a larger scale organized religon can be harmful but most peoples personal faith/creed or religon is not.

To be honest, even when people work to destroy someone's personal faith in an obvious way, such as Persecution of various levels, from mockery up to and including death, it somehow ends up boomranging many times and adding to the base of people that subscribe to a faith.
Christianity is a prime example of something where the Romans went into overdrive to eradicate. It went on to outlast the Empire and become a driving force in the world.

I swear, I leave you lot alone for one afternoon...

Relapse wrote:

nomsheep wrote:

Ouze wrote:

nomsheep wrote:@ ouze: yes but smallpox kills, personal faith not so much.

Nom

My point was in rebuttal to your post that "true faith would survive the internet age, because it's survived over 3,000 years". Smallpox is substantially older than 3,000 years old and has been eradicated.

The argument "since it's been around a long time, it will therefore be around forever" is not very compelling to me.

My point wasnt phrased very well or at all tbh.
Smallpox kills therefore lots of people work to destroy it. My personal faith harms no one hence less people will try and destroy it so it will last longer.

Nom

Edit: on a larger scale organized religon can be harmful but most peoples personal faith/creed or religon is not.

To be honest, even when people work to destroy someone's personal faith in an obvious way, such as Persecution of various levels, from mockery up to and including death, it somehow ends up boomranging many times and adding to the base of people that subscribe to a faith.
Christianity is a prime example of something where the Romans went into overdrive to eradicate. It went on to outlast the Empire and become a driving force in the world.

It was the Emperor Constantine who confirmed Christianity as the official state religion and set up the Council of Nicaea that resulted in the establishment of the Nicene Creed as the fundamental statement of faith that has persisted in mainstream Christianity even since.

illuknisaa wrote:

broodstar wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

broodstar wrote:
I believe in demons. I believe in demonic oppression, I don't believe in possession. (there is a difference) A long time ago if a person acted weird, it was the devil, now we know of mental illness and have classified many of those weird behaviors. Now a person sees a psychiatrist before they see a priest. Now the rite of exorcism is used vary rarely and only when doctors have ran out of answers. But, I believe that there are wicked incorporeal beasts out there that like to F with your emotions, to the point that you kill yourself or other people.

I strongly suggest you visit a psychiatrist because you are exhibiting a few classic simptons of paranoia and even mild delusion...

No, I just have religious beliefs. I'll take your idea of being delusional but, if you believe the devil exists, that's not Paranoia, that's being alert.

Why do you need to be alert?

Would you not say that the devil has been trying to manipulate and trick people since the Garden of Eden, since Babylon. The devil will try and trick you, to give up your seat in heaven through the original sins. I believe that if you let him the devil can manipulate your emotions make you hate yourself and make you ruin the relationships with your family.

The last big report of demonic incursion happened last century in Amittyville. When tragically a guy shot up his family, at the trial he said that the devil made hit do it. The other travesty here is that the judge accepted that as an insanity ply but then the judge decline it saying that the lawyer didn't file the proper paperwork for an insanity ply, and through the whole weight of his judicial power onto this guy with no defense as though he plied guilty. Can't really say I blame the judge, either way the guy did it and the devil isn't really something the law can quantify, however changing an insanity ply to guilty based off of paperwork is kind of bs.

I should add that since the original investigation by the church, no paranormal investigation have been allowed to take place in the house by the new owner.

But anyway, enough on this subject.

When tragically a guy shot up his family, at the trial he said that the devil made hit do it.

Yes, that is what he said.

And yet, you take his word for it without any skepticism at all?

broodstar wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

broodstar wrote:
I believe in demons. I believe in demonic oppression, I don't believe in possession. (there is a difference) A long time ago if a person acted weird, it was the devil, now we know of mental illness and have classified many of those weird behaviors. Now a person sees a psychiatrist before they see a priest. Now the rite of exorcism is used vary rarely and only when doctors have ran out of answers. But, I believe that there are wicked incorporeal beasts out there that like to F with your emotions, to the point that you kill yourself or other people.

I strongly suggest you visit a psychiatrist because you are exhibiting a few classic simptons of paranoia and even mild delusion...

No, I just have religious beliefs. I'll take your idea of being delusional but, if you believe the devil exists, that's not Paranoia, that's being alert.

If you subscribe to the idea of an all powerful entity that refuses to engage with humanity based on a self-imposed restriction of "free will", then how can you reconcile that notion with the belief that said all powerful entity would still allow other "foreign" influences (in the case of the "devil" and "demons") to interfere and manipulate humanities free will?

On that same notion, why would an all powerful god being permit an adversary such as the "devil" to exist? Even when the whole purpose to the existence of said "devil" is the destruction or corruption of all of "gods" work?

Is god bored and in need of a sparring partner? Is that it?

And come to think of it, if an all powerful god can't stop a few demons from manifesting and messing around with human beings, how would another human being (in the form of an exorcist) be powerful enough to stop them?

Melissia wrote:

When tragically a guy shot up his family, at the trial he said that the devil made hit do it.

Yes, that is what he said.

And yet, you take his word for it without any skepticism at all?

Well no, the insanity would have put him in a padded cell. I live in the southern states, I hear it all the time, a kid steals a candy bar and says the devil made him do it, but the fact that prior to the murder the church was conducting a Inquisitio Daemonum (investigation into the demonic) does lend a little credibility. But even that isn't enough for him to got free, he's still to dangerous.

Poppabear wrote:
In your own mind, is takes a lot to believe there is nothing there (God) then to believe there is. You may think not, but the human works in a funny way.

No. Atheism is not an active assertion of belief, it is a passive lack of belief.

To put it another way, it takes you exactly as much faith to not believe in the existence of small pink unicorns that secretly control the world's financial markets as it takes me to not believe in a god of any sort.

Exactly as much. None.

Melissia wrote:

When tragically a guy shot up his family, at the trial he said that the devil made hit do it.

Yes, that is what he said.

And yet, you take his word for it without any skepticism at all?

IIRC he also subsequently claimed that the whole thing was actually a mafia hit squad working on behalf of his uncle, that the police beat the original confession out of him and that he was told he would be killed in prison if he contradicted that confession.*




* In a book of interviews with convicted killers/multiple murderers the title of which escapes me right now.

broodstar wrote:the fact that prior to the murder the church was conducting a Inquisitio Daemonum (investigation into the demonic) does lend a little credibility

No it doesn't. A bunch of deluded LARPers don't make for increased credibility.

broodstar, it looks like you have 40k and real life a bit mixed up.

nomsheep wrote:My point wasnt phrased very well or at all tbh.
Smallpox kills therefore lots of people work to destroy it. My personal faith harms no one hence less people will try and destroy it so it will last longer.

I see. That's a good point, and perhaps my analogy was poor.

Of course, it all depends on whether or not his personal faith harms no-one.

Many have argued that the collective "personal faith"s of the populace have done quite a bit of harm to others.

broodstar wrote:
Would you not say that the devil has been trying to manipulate and trick people since the Garden of Eden, since Babylon. The devil will try and trick you, to give up your seat in heaven through the original sins. I believe that if you let him the devil can manipulate your emotions make you hate yourself and make you ruin the relationships with your family.

The last big report of demonic incursion happened last century in Amittyville. When tragically a guy shot up his family, at the trial he said that the devil made hit do it. The other travesty here is that the judge accepted that as an insanity ply but then the judge decline it saying that the lawyer didn't file the proper paperwork for an insanity ply, and through the whole weight of his judicial power onto this guy with no defense as though he plied guilty. Can't really say I blame the judge, either way the guy did it and the devil isn't really something the law can quantify, however changing an insanity ply to guilty based off of paperwork is kind of bs.

I should add that since the original investigation by the church, no paranormal investigation have been allowed to take place in the house by the new owner.

But anyway, enough on this subject.

I thought God was all powerful and can just zzap deamons away.

Melissia wrote:Of course, it all depends on whether or not his personal faith harms no-one.

Many have argued that the collective "personal faith"s of the populace have done quite a bit of harm to others.

When it becomes the faith of many (and hence no longer just personal) under the guidance of a leader (or group of leaders) this is when the harm is caused. When a charasmatic leader steps up then the weak willed or easily led will follow them into damnation and back as we have seen time and time again throughout history irrelevant of beliefs.

Most just manipulate these factors to their own ends by. Making the masses believe that they are in the right.

Nom

A one-man religion can be pretty harmful, if equipped with the right hardware.

PhantomViper wrote:[
If you subscribe to the idea of an all powerful entity that refuses to engage with humanity based on a self-imposed restriction of "free will", then how can you reconcile that notion with the belief that said all powerful entity would still allow other "foreign" influences (in the case of the "devil" and "demons") to interfere and manipulate humanities free will?

On that same notion, why would an all powerful god being permit an adversary such as the "devil" to exist? Even when the whole purpose to the existence of said "devil" is the destruction or corruption of all of "gods" work?

Well that's simple, they are able to that because that is their job. They are your prosecutor, they are there to point out your sins, and how do some get accessed and some don't? simple, around you is a barrier, a seal, a lock if you will, and there are only 2 keys, god has one and you have one, and how do you unlock yourself? Sin, you invited them in, you messed around with crap like the Ouija board (worshiping a false idol) being the most common.

Is god bored and in need of a sparring partner? Is that it?

Well kind of, dude read the Old Testament, God's a prick. In the book of Job God and Satan were taking bets. The bet was if God unlocked Job Satan was such a badass that he could make Job renounce his faith and if he did Job's soul was his. So the bet was on, Satan unleashed all hell on Job, Satan took his wealth, his family, and his health. Job died with his life in ruins but never turned his back on his God.

And come to think of it, if an all powerful god can't stop a few demons from manifesting and messing around with human beings, how would another human being (in the form of an exorcist) be powerful enough to stop them?

nomsheep wrote:When it becomes the faith of many (and hence no longer just personal) under the guidance of a leader (or group of leaders)

The latter part isn't required.

But a person's personal faith can make them do horrible things with or without anyone else effecting them.

Why does God need forgiveness? Didn't Jesus die for our sins?

broodstar wrote:Job died with his life in ruins but never turned his back on his God.

That's not even how the story ended! And ouija boards, seriously? This is smelling a little trollish.

Melissia wrote:No it doesn't. A bunch of deluded LARPers don't make for increased credibility.

Your calling the Vatican LARPers?

Seriously. When did the Vatican investigate the DeFeo murders? Was this before or after the Lutz's admitted their story was a hoax?

broodstar wrote:Your calling the Vatican LARPers?

I have a decidedly low opinion of the overwhelming majority of paranormal investigators. They are not interested in finding the truth, they're only interested in finding what they want to find.

Seaward wrote:

Poppabear wrote:
In your own mind, is takes a lot to believe there is nothing there (God) then to believe there is. You may think not, but the human works in a funny way.

No. Atheism is not an active assertion of belief, it is a passive lack of belief.

To put it another way, it takes you exactly as much faith to not believe in the existence of small pink unicorns that secretly control the world's financial markets as it takes me to not believe in a god of any sort.

Exactly as much. None.

I might point out that your idea of atheism is very different then some atheists ideas of atheism, which were and are very active indeed. As in the 'renounce faith or we will execute you' sense of being active. I personally liked the People's Socialist Republic of Albania burning the Franciscan monks alive in the name of atheism. It has such delicious religious overtones. Just being caught with a bible or other religious object was an automatic and very long prison sentence.

Oh, and then there's Pol Pot, who took atheism beyond even that,with upwards of 60,000 Buddhist monks alone executed for their faith. Numbers for Christianity and Islam were unavailable at the time of my posting, but I do know they went even further against those faiths as they were viewed as 'pro-western'.

Further, I'd suggest that unless you consider Europe, the US, and China to be developing countries, religion is gaining ground. Just not necessarily Catholicism.

BaronIveagh wrote:
I might point out that your idea of atheism is very different then some atheists ideas of atheism, which were and are very active indeed. As in the 'renounce faith or we will execute you' sense of being active. I personally liked the People's Socialist Republic of Albania burning the Franciscan monks alive in the name of atheism. It has such delicious religious overtones. Just being caught with a bible or other religious object was an automatic and very long prison sentence.

Oh, and then there's Pol Pot, who took atheism beyond even that,with upwards of 60,000 Buddhist monks alone executed for their faith. Numbers for Christianity and Islam were unavailable at the time of my posting, but I do know they went even further against those faiths as they were viewed as 'pro-western'.

I really feel like you are confusing communism with atheism. Those were all actions made by pseudo-communist countries where people weren't supposed to recognize any higher authority than the state and religion was considered a subversive tool. That was the reason that they were being executed, not because they believed in anything.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Further, I'd suggest that unless you consider Europe, the US, and China to be developing countries, religion is gaining ground. Just not necessarily Catholicism.

Numbers and sources for Europe and US please?

And yes, China is a developing nation. Their literacy and general education numbers are pretty low by any standards.

A lot of people confuse persecution with Christianity. BaronIveagh's point might well be that the confusion of persecution with atheism is just as plausible. I'd think that's pretty good point.

Manchu wrote:A one-man religion can be pretty harmful, if equipped with the right hardware.

Melissia wrote:

But a person's personal faith can make them do horrible things with or without anyone else effecting them.

They can, true enough

Nom