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 judgedoug wrote:
It also comes down to perspective. At this point in my life, my brain is oversaturated with Space Marines, so I hate them. I hate the design, I hate the models. They're fething stupid looking. So the Enforcers plastics look several orders of magnitude better to me than gakky old Space Marines that I've been exposed to for 20+ years. So, feth yeah, give me a Kickstarter to produce cheap plastic sci fi models that are much, much, much better than Space Marines.

And god bless you for it!

I try to keep in mind what I like because I like it, what I like because I want to like it, and what I like because it's actually good.

Mantic right now is a low ceiling company. The best of their stuff (plastic undead, Ogres, DZ Rebs) are perfectly acceptable models. A lot of the ranges are simply poor sculpts, and very little is truly excellent. There's nothing wrong with riding the mantic train. I've got a painted Mantic Ogre Army that I love, I think KOW is a great game. But I don't let my enthusiasm and my hope that they succeed guide how I spend my money with them.

Now, what I won't do, and what I really discourage everybody from doing, is restating endlessly how they aren't backing this, they're tired of Mantic, etc. There's nothing wrong with letting people enjoy the Kickstarter without turds in the punch bowl.

this hasn't been an official line from Mantic.

Not what I said.

we don't know Mantic's sales other than a few targeted items. Maybe KS accounts for 10% of their revenue? Maybe 90%? Does anyone know? Or is it just random speculation?

Would a quick 'n' dirty poll of dakka members help? You talk about your group backing every Mantic kickstarter. I'd guess that means you ended up with a lot of bargains. How many purchases at retail have you made after those? Any significantly large ones?

So I completely disagree with unfinished/questionable mechanics.

So you haven't seen the whole debate about hubs, multibasing and TLOS in this topic then, and the fact that it's all funded and paid for no matter how it turns out, 'cos it's unfinished - unseen, even - and with no promises how it'll turn out, despite the laudable focus on public betas and feedback. (Rumours that Ronnie wants things 'just so' don't encourage me.)
And let me pull my copy of KoW 1st ed off the shelf (yes, I've bought Mantic products!)... yep, TLOS, changed in 2nd ed IIRC. And they're still talking about sticking it in games. Will it be more appropriate in Firefight? That's... questionable.

But I make sure my main pledge is something I want _not counting random free stuff thrown on_, that way, if that random free stuff is any good, then it's only improved my perceived value.

Gotta be honest, I think Mantic's sci-fi stuff has generally been much better than their fantasy ranges, but if the hypothetical random stuff I got was in line with the old MaA or Sisters (or heck, even some of the cartoony stuff from their KoW2 KS. It just doesn't speak to me) I don't know if I'd count it as added value.

Otherwise, bully that the KSs worked out well for you. Like I said, I guess I want something different, a little more confidence in an existing, proven product (past performance is no indication and all that) without feeling that I'm missing out - on discounts or better prices, at least - if I don't gamble and spend big on a limited-time offer. As has been said about GW recently, I guess I'm just not the kind of customer Mantic wants. Or am I?

 Vermis wrote:
Would a quick 'n' dirty poll of dakka members help? You talk about your group backing every Mantic kickstarter. I'd guess that means you ended up with a lot of bargains. How many purchases at retail have you made after those? Any significantly large ones?

This wouldn't actually help at all just generate more guesses and assumptions. Dakka backers would end up being 5-10% of the backers already backing and with the poll maybe 40 people might respond. That isn't enough of a sample to even get a good gauge of a retail market.

Not to even mention the self-selection bias would be absolutely awful.

I'll believe they are making solid post-KS sales when I start to see any of their product available for sale in even 1 of the 8 game stores around where I live.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I'll believe they are making solid post-KS sales when I start to see any of their product available for sale in even 1 of the 8 game stores around where I live.

Even that is still too small of a sample size as well as it will be dependent on what distributors they are using as well as players in the area, which isn't necessarily indicative of the market. They are a EU company and I believe you are in the US like me.

Out of the 5 game stores in my area, 3 of them carry their products. To be fair two of them are mostly a magic based store with the emphasis more on board games. The main miniatures gaming store I frequent though does have all their products on the shelves even Warpath. It however doesn't have any Infinity miniatures (which would rather see there) but Infinity is more focused at 2 other stores instead, which doesn't have Warpath but does KoW and Deadzone.

Sure sounds like the PP forums in here today. "Shut up, everything is awesome!"

 pretre wrote:

 Vermis wrote:

pretre wrote:
I think he means that Mantic blew up the St Louis arch.

Wow, you've managed to turn around my whole POV. I can't believe I've been so wrong. Now I love Mantic and everything it does.

I can write hyperbolic, unhelpful sarcasm, too. Despite what you people think, I'm not hating on Mantic for the fun of it. (Dealing with some of you is not much fun at all, believe me.) But others have concerns about the whole way Mantic is trying to do things, and dismissing them as 'haters' because they voice those concerns is not going to win them over or make them slink away in shame. It has a nasty resemblance to the way some GW fanboys try to shout down any valid criticisms.

Whoooosh.

I lol'd and exalted so it didn't completely go to waste

 judgedoug wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
How many KSs has Warlord ran? Oh, yeah. Somehow they're able to fund plastic kits without the need to panhandle on the corner and I don't think it's unfair to ask why that is.

Massive start-up capital funded their initial releases, but there was a dead period in early 2012 until the runaway success of Bolt Action has caused their company to grow 40% in the past year.

So Mantic is a Kickstarter company. Like Mierce and many others. /shrug

I suppose so, if they're happy with being a nitch inside a nitch, more power to them I guess but that leaves a great deal of money on the table with the continual reduction in GW sales; more money for PP to pick up in that case.

You're probably right and I just expected too much from Mantic; I need perspective I guess. I still watch them but I'll never, ever back one of their KS again; I like to know what I'm getting and they change too many things mid-stream for my sanity.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sure sounds like the PP forums in here today. "Shut up, everything is awesome!"

Have an exalt

And this.....because everything is awesome

https://youtu.be/StTqXEQ2l-Y

 primalexile wrote:
FYI,

I am not backing this and have stopped following it. Someone may want to take over the front page. This KS has left me feeling disenfranchised with Mantic again..

Mantic....Almost.

 Bolognesus wrote:
I'd be happy to 'take over the front page' (as, I'm sure, are plenty of other posters), but I'm not sure how anyone but a mod would go about actually 'taking over' the first post?

Bolognesus, if you'd like to make a new thread with an updated first post (that you can keep updated hopefully ) just do so and we'll lock this one up (you can mention in the new post that I asked you to, or just mod alert this thread asking for it to be locked and linked to the new one).

I've had to turn my speakers off, this thread was upsetting my dog

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Sure sounds like the PP forums in here today. "Shut up, everything is awesome!"

Well, is that better or worse than this thread being like the AoS thread a few weeks ago where it was all, "Shut up! Everything sucks!!!1!1!" ?

Some folks love what Mantic is doing. Some don't. If folks expect to be able to be critical and not be shouted down for it, the reverse should apply as well.

Personally I am cautiously optimistic, and for what i am interested in, I like what I see so far.

Checks kickstarter, sees no Corporation troopers or options, breathes sigh of disappointment whilst wallet breathes sigh of relief... departs thread.

So, no middle ground is possible like I've seen here whereby people recognize the good in Mantic but have a few concerns? I suppose the world is only populated by uber-fans and haters, no Gray.

It's a den of scum and villainy here at dakka.. Not sure which fan is which though. . I suspect most folks are actually in the middle ground but are just labelled as on of the extremes by folks who disagree with them. I joke about Mantic because they provide plenty of easily preventable gaff material but I keep checking out their threads because there is potential and I hope one day they will have the critical mass in one project to get me to buy in.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Checks kickstarter, sees no Corporation troopers or options, breathes sigh of disappointment whilst wallet breathes sigh of relief... departs thread.

I *do* really want to see some corporation stuff, but I'm kind of afraid they're going to botch the proportions. Just looking at the zombies. At the best there will be no kitbashing if they do make the marines properly shaped. But that's still best, and its not like the new zombies don't come with army bits anyway.

Wish they'd break 210k so we could see if they picked the tunneler or the next army to go after.

Well, the problem with being a normal person is that both extremes see you as being in the enemy camp.

I probably spent more money on Mantic product and more time giving (solicited) feedback to polish their games than a lot of folks here who think I shouldn't have a say. Luckily, Mantic themselves know they're not perfect, unlike some of their fans.

 warboss wrote:
It's a den of scum and villainy here at dakka.. Not sure which fan is which though. . I suspect most folks are actually in the middle ground but are just labelled as on of the extremes by folks who disagree with them. I joke about Mantic because they provide plenty of easily preventable gaff material but I keep checking out their threads because there is potential and I hope one day they will have the critical mass in one project to get me to buy in.

Have an exalt.

*Gone over to new thread*

It seems the Gods of Dakka have given their blessing for the discussion to continue here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664870.page

 judgedoug wrote:

Don't you realize Squig that when one must take an anti-Mantic position they must contort themselves in all manner of strange shapes in order to justify their beliefs
"Oh the glory days of restic! Those were the days! Not this hard plastic nonsense now! Mantic... almost"

Sad as it is, Restic appears to be the better medium for some models. Ogre-Troll-Golem sized models that don't suffer as much from shrinkage. etc - especially those that are not over-detailed. The problem is that Mantic went all-in on Restic for everything - so we all got way too many small and fiddly models, with mould lines across faces in what is a pretty awful material for things like that - which resulted in so much backlash that they've cut it out entirely and to offer it again, even for material-appropriate figures like that huge golem for KoW would result in more backlash from consumers who they managed to turn off the material entirely. (And yeah, that is their own fault).

Obviously hard plastic is the best solution for their mass-produced models, but metal has a place for people like you and myself who weren't brought up playing exclusively with GW's plastic kits. Unfortunately Hybrid models and metals have their own drawbacks if not planned properly. Examples include the wings on the Basiliean Character models from KoW1 (good luck pinning those! Dremel included in every kit?) and now, as already stated - metal jump packs on plastic figures - what could possibley go wrong?

Of course, I consider myself to have more of a critical stance than an anti-Mantic one. We'll see what the rules end up being like, though I may end up like their office Jetbike players and just use their models for 40k instead...

New thread up now http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/664870.page so everyone can head over there